Need A Portable Clip Player without the Camera...
 

I've been a network news freelance cameraman for many years but sold my Betacam pack a few years back to concentrate on editing for NBC's Today Show and Nightly News working out of their Southwest Bureau here in Dallas. But with freelancers being cut back I am putting together a camera pack again and starting with the HM700. I got a call tonight to rush to Wichita KS to do live shots in the morning on the shooting of that abortion doctor there. However, my camera is late in arriving and I had to turn down this particular shoot. (RATS!). However, this points out my need for a portable clip player like in the camera but without the camera. Everyone suggests that I use a laptop computer but this is not practical in breaking news environments where I shoot video and a producer takes that video to the uplink truck to feed it. I can't hand them an SDHC card to feed. They have no way of playing the clips on it! I need a small box that has the functions of the clip player on the camera and has SDI and Composite outputs along with a low-res, small LCD panel for reference. Something I can hand to a producer with the SDHC card and he or she can take both to the uplink truck and the truck op can see the video, hook it into his system easily, and feed it. To my knowledge, no such device exists. One truck op suggested a PlayStation 3 but its my understanding it won't play .mov files. I post this with the hope that JVC or a third-party developer will notice this need and consider building such a device.

Don Smith
NewsVideo.com

Don,
Can they play/ use DVD in the uplink truck? You can just record in .mov and use Toast 10 to quickly generate a DVD with the footage on your laptop.
You could buy HM100 and Matrox MO2 Mini.
About 3 or 4 years ago I was selling a riot footage to a TV station in Seattle. They could not capture my footage shot with DVX100, as they did not even have Firewire on the uplink truck. We ended up going to the local TV station and ended up using their DV deck. The point is that I doubt uplink truck will be equipped with any sort of connection that works for this situation.

You mean to help Robert, but I respectfully suggest that you're missing my point; this is breaking news and not production. I can't stop my shooting and deal with burning a DVD or take my camera out of commission for the purpose of feeding. Even if I could depend on a producer doing the transfer process, which I can't because they almost never have the technical expertise, he or she simply wouldn't have the luxury of time to do it. "Breaking News" dictates that what is shot is immediately fed out. In times past, when a new format comes along, camera people using that new format would provide a VTR for the truck to use to feed that new format. That's what I need now; something that will feed clips directly from the SDHC cards. I dream of a hand-held device that will have a reference LCD screen and will play the video on the SDHC clips to SDI or Composite outputs (switchable, of course, between anamorphic, letterboxed and centercut), and that device that can display the timecode of the clips on-screen so that a producer could use it to log clips on shot SDHC cards while the camera person is still shooting new video or in their hotel room at night. That box, which I'll call SSCP (Solid-State Clip Player) would also have a headphone jack. Buying an HM100 for that purpose is (1) EXPENSIVE, and (2) will need an HDMI-to-SDI interface (is there such a thing?) to feed HD video, (3) requires separate charging system and batteries) and (4) can be problematic for non-technical producers because the camera has to be in the same shooting mode as the recorded clips in order to play them back. Thank you for trying to help, though.

I changed my mind. I'll call it a "Portable Clip Player", or PCP. OK, there you go. I'll go down in history as the guy who came up with the perfect generic name! :)

Sounds like you rather need a microwave transmitter, so the signal can be fed into the truck from the camera.

"JVC Professional Products Company is introducing a high-efficiency Full HD microwave equipped camera system that, for the first time, brings affordable HD microwave capabilities to the ENG/EFP market. The ProHD Libre system provides native 60P HD capture, recording and transmission through a compact, onboard camera-back transmitter developed for JVC by Broadcast Microwave Services (BMS). A fully equipped system, complete with camera, lens, microwave transmitter and receiver can be configured for under $30,000. Previous systems with this capability began at more than $100,000."

Here is the link to JVC page: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/f...l_id=MDL101715

However if you get the SxS recording unit and most likely you'll be able to use PMW-EX30 XDCAM-EX Player. Here is a link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Recording.html
Libre unit records through firewire, so you should be able to record to SxS and transmit at the same time.
You might be even be able to use SxS adapter and just shoot SDHC, use the adapter for upload, but you'd need to test this theory (MxR cards do work, but recorded on Sony). You'll need to record in ISO media format not .mov container though.
Hope I did not miss your point this time.

Just as a note, I believe such a player would cost more than an HM100.

Agreed. More than an HM100 + an HDMI to SDI converter

Blackmagic Design: Mini Converters

With SxS box PMW-EX30 XDCAM-EX Player I believe is exact set up what is needed. The unit costs $3999.95. HM100 gives a backup option for a bit more.

He shoots with a HM700 though... And as a Pro the question is not how much something costs but how much money it will make you. At least it should be.

True, except my comment was in response to the original poster's comment: "Buying an HM100 for that purpose is (1) EXPENSIVE,...."

He is the one who considered the HM100 an expensive option. I just wanted to mention that the requested player would likely cost even more.

I appreciate everyone's suggestions but I'm aware of everything mentioned and none fit my purpose. If the truck needed live video they would just cable to me and put me in a static position. As for the SxS player, 4k is just overkill. It's ridiculous to pay that much for a Portable Clip Player. Besides, I moved to the HM700 for the benefit of the low-cost SDHC cards. How am I gonna wean them from expensive SxS cards (and P2 cards for that matter) if I go back to recording on SxS? (I owned a Sony EX3 for a while). I'm just asking for what I'm calling a Portable Clip Player and pointing out the need for such a device. No one seems to be listening when I say I need to hand a producer an SDHC card and a PCP of some kind to take to the truck, or take to the edit room, or take to a place where he or she can log the video. Adding in a laptop and a conversion process is just out of the question. When Betacam was new there were portable Betacam players and VTRs that could be handed to a truck operator or to an editor in an edit room accommodate the new format. My point here is that with low-cost SDHC cards there should be a low-cost Portable Clip Player. I'm just hoping others will sign on as agreeing with me in the hope that JVC or another developer will take up the cause.

I realize you don't want to go with a laptop, but it may be the only route available at this time, short of buying a 2nd camera to use primarily as a clip player.

Just Googling around, I found this product:

DekTec - DTU-205 - FantASI USB-2 ASI/SDI output Adapter

If I understand the product description correctly, it can stream MPEG2 video files via its supplied software to the companion SDI-output adapter which is powered solely by the USB port.

The problem here, of course, is that currently that product is only for Windows or Linux, not Mac, so there'd be problems unwrapping the QuickTime .MOV files unless you also have the SxS adapter from JVC which allows you to record Sony's wrapper.

So as of today this won't work, but maybe this company could be nudged in a friendly way to examine the problem... all of the pieces might exist out there to unwrap .MOV files. Then, all you'd need is an inexpensive Windows notebook (maybe even a fast netbook), a card reader, and this USB device. Put it all in a foam-lined Pelican case so it's pre-wired and ready to go, and set it up to boot into the player software, then hand the whole works off to the truck crew or producer.

(The USB-to-SDI adapter is about 1,000 Euros, so with a notebook and case your still in pretty expensive territory, but still not into HM100 territory.)

Yeah, but for the kind a player you describe with SDI output, $4000 is inexpensive.

Perhaps you are looking for a player with HDMI output into an HDMI to SDI converter. Such a player should come in around a thousand dollars, with the several hundred more than for the converter. Now that would be cheap.

It sounds like you need an SXS/sdhc adapter so you can use the sdhc cards in the current player.. With the new Class 10 sdhc cards coming out by Panasonic, such an adapter is now reasonable since the Class 10 cards should be able to record as fast as the SXS cards.

If you have an HM700 that records mpeg4 files, why in the world would you want to record to mov?

some PCP are able to play mpg4 and mpg2 video.

for example the western digital HD TV can play the EX1 files (video, no sound)., has usb input (allows a large choice of card reader), composite output (to connect a small lcd screen) or HDMI output (to connect a large LCS screen).

for the price, you will not find better deal than a cheap mini-laptop (around 500$) with a SD reader, if possible Expresscard slot, screen, hardisk, video output.).

VTR's were never cheap. And as the prices of tape were down, the players/vtr's remained high. I don't think there is a big need for "clip player" as your situation is rather unique. After shooting I was able to view all the clips and log them in on my Macbook Pro, within seconds of finished shots. Therefor for 99% of users it would be completely useless. I think the way to approach is is to talk to networks to accommodate trucks for this new work flow.
I think much there is much bigger need for a storage unit for the situations where the computer is not handy.

RE: "Yeah, but for the kind a player you describe with SDI output, $4000 is inexpensive."

I believe that not to be true and let me tell you why: A few years back I interested a company to build a custom converter box so that legacy Betacam tape could be brought into the digital domain in pristine condition. They built a converter that had a Firewire interface to the computer and an SDI connection to that model Betacam deck that looks like a half-deck and has SDI in/out. You could also put an RS-422 cable between the Betacam and the converter. The laptop thought it was connected to a DV deck. You could J-K-L control it and capture video in it's most pristine form as it came out of the Betacam deck through SDI and was converted to Firewire on-the-fly. The SDI port was bi-directional. They sold the converter for $800. My imagined Portable Clip Player only has to have one-way SDI.

But, let's go over my imagined PCP again; small box. Card slot. Reference (read: Low Quality) LCD. SDI switchable HD/SD out. Composite Out switchable between letterbox, anamorphic (squeezed) and center-cut (side-cut). Let's include a headphone jack and power it with replaceable batteries if possible, and if not, a wall-wart. In other words, the clip player from the camera without the camera. And with more media being recorded to cards of some kind, I'll bet a manufacturer could build this box, put in a couple more card slots to accommodate a wider range of formats, and sell it for under 1k. Or, think of it this way; you can pay $3500 for an HM100 and get the same thing (OK, HDMI instead of SDI but that can be swapped) and then take away the price of the camera part and the price of the lens and the price of the on-cam mic, and you can imagine that the clip player part can't be that expensive.

VTR's, by themselves, weren't cheap, but they were cheap by comparison with the cameras of the time. Since then, everything has gotten much cheaper. The HM700 I just bought for 7k beats the pants off the Betacam I paid 40+k for (without the lens) 20 years ago. Today, I describe a converter in my previous message that demonstrates you can have a box converting to and from SDI very cheap.

My situation is not as unique as you characterize it. I represent a whole market that many companies see as large enough to build for. I'm in the "ENG" (Electronic News Gathering) group. You see hoards of ENG people at major news events all the time. You see hoards of camera people (poorly) depicted in movies and TV shows all the time. There are many of us out there and you'll see a large market catering to ENG people. I'm not talking about EFP (Electronic Field Production). That's a whole 'nother animal although some products are interchangeable.

Yes, you can take a few minutes with your laptop, but your camera is down for the time that your attention is drawn elsewhere. There's more infrastructure to deal with and more things to carry out to the field.

I must be talking to production guys because production guys just don't "get it" about the immediacy of news. And, please, I don't mean that as an insult. As a news guy I'm sure you can point out that I don't "get it" when it comes to some production issues that you understand clearly. I mean, I can't "view all clips and log them within SECONDS" as quoted above. I guess you production guys learn tricks that are kept secret from news guys. The reality is that there are production guys and there are news guys and it sounds from what I'm reading here that production guys don't understand why I can't carry the extra equipment and take the extra time to get my news video fed through an uplink truck or taken to an edit room by a producer for immediate editing (unless that edit room is using Final Cut Pro. Most network editing rooms are Avid right now).

The networks do try to accommodate the trucks, but the networks are slow to respond. Besides, look at any major news event where you see uplink trucks and you'll notice that MOST of them are run by independent operators hired by the media outlets and not by the networks. They're freelancers too.

The only common denominator right now is SDI and/or Composite. As long as you can give a truck or an edit room an SDI out or a Composite Out, you can feed them any format you like. That's my point; I want to easily give them what I know every has.

Don Smith
NewsVideo.com

Look at this:

Welcome to Usb.brando.com.hk

Mouse over the object among other products on the left side. Second one down on the right. It says it's a media player, it has an SD card slot and HDMI out. Not exactly what I have in mind but we're getting there. Can't see right off the bat the price, but it demonstrates that manufacturers are starting to think about playing video from cards.

Option
 

Donald

How about this as a work around? Purchase a Cannon VIXIA HF S10 Dual Flash Memory High Definition Camcorder (aprox. $1300 USA) { or similiar} consumer camcorder that has the required outputs to match the trucks inputs. The cam can act as a back up and player for your SDHC cards.

Very interested in the outcome ... keep us posted.

Donald, our workflow was as follow. We were shooting in 720/60p. There were 4 cards, we ended up using 3. When one card was getting full, I would pop it out, hand it over. My partner then would copy/paste the .mov files via USB reader. I know that the process took way less then 10 minutes per card. We were able to view the clips in QT Player on Macbook Pro instantly, as the files can be played from the card.
I don't have your experience and expertise in the field of ENG. However it sounds to me like you'd like to continue betacam workflow, without usage of a computer, all on a consumer budget.
As far as "handing over a card" there is no difference between handing over SDHC or an external HDD (which can be hooked up to PC or Mac for viewing or editing). I simply don't see where the issue is in this regard. For PC there is a free browser to vie the clips: https://servicesplus.us.sony.biz/son...del-XDZP1.aspx. If recorded in ISO format, XDCAM is compatible with AVID (or any other platform). I just think (no offense) you are trying to recreate beta workflow in tapeless system.
"The only common denominator right now is SDI and/or Composite. As long as you can give a truck or an edit room an SDI out or a Composite Out, you can feed them any format you like. That's my point; I want to easily give them what I know every has."
There is your answer in this situation
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...l_Capture.html
This will enable you to connect Macbook Pro to any SDI or Composite.

Unfortunately, the Canon VIXIA series is AVCHD, not MPEG2. It would be unable to play clips from the JVC. (I have the earlier Canon VIXIA HF 10, for example.)

There are other cheap media players out there that accept SD cards, but I don't know of any which will unwrap a QuickTime .MOV file with the XDCAM EX codec. Such a box might exist -- the manufacturer may not even be aware that the particular combination works -- some trial and error and a lot of research would be required.

Hi Robert.. I appreciate the thought you've put into this and I want to be careful that you or anyone else don't take it personally when I say you're still not getting it. I'm not trying to recreate a Betacam workflow on a consumer budget, I'm saying that I want a workflow that scales with the cost of the gear. This is the normal progression of technology. As I've pointed out, one manufacturer made a box at my suggestion for $800 that had SDI in/out and Firewire for another purpose. Manufacturers can't expect you to buy a 7k camera but still sell you 20 or 30k of infrastructure to feed the material. I mean, I just bought a refurbished still camera for $57 that takes SD cards to record and play back. A few years ago the NBC News Southwest Bureau, where I was doing most of my work, was instructed by the network to temporarily switch to DV cameras as an experiment. Like the case now with solid-state media, uplink trucks didn't have the means to feed out DV tape, so NBC gave us little DV decks, that cost less than a thousand dollars for a producer to take to the truck. That's the answer I'm looking for. I don't want something for nothing, I just believe that the process is scaled with the new technology that permits the playback of video from SD cards at a price that's compatible with the price of the new camera gear that does so much for so little money.

And, despite my saying repeatedly here that in news you often can't take your eye off the camera, everyone keeps suggestion scenarios where "it only takes ten minutes...." to <do something else>. What part of "I can't take my attention away from the camera" is everyone not understanding? What part of "the truck can't deal with the added infrastructure of laptops to convert video first" is everyone not understanding? Right now, you would have to have a "processing station" for someone OTHER than the camera person to transfer that video to a medium the truck can handle. Until the time when feeding from solid-state media becomes ubiquitous, the best I can hope for is a hand-held device that will play out the video through either SDI or Composite because that's what every truck and every edit room can take.

So, Robert, if I met you in person I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee and talk DV. It's so hard to tell the tone of someone in a text message and I want to say again that none of this is personal. I'm just trying to get people who haven't done breaking news to understand what I'm up against.

On a completely new subject, and maybe I should start a new thread on this except that it really doesn't matter to anyone but me, but I did my first commercial shoot yesterday with a loaner HM700 and, man, I just loved it. The producer I was working for flipped! The reseller who had sold me my own HM700 had loaned me their rental camera since I had paid for the new camera but it hadn't arrived yet. Yesterday, while on the shoot, I was informed that my own camera had arrived. This being June I thought for a moment that the camera would have the Canon lens, but it had the Fujinon, which performed for me beautifully on the loaner camera, so, I'm a very happy camper. The producer will copy the cards and mail them back to me and when he does, I'll post a little of the nicely-lit interviews I did for everyone to see. OK, maybe when I get the video back I'll start a new thread with a link to the video.

Love that box. Want one. But, where is the SD slot? Of course, I ask that question in jest because we all know that you must first use a card reader to feed the laptop to feed the box to feed the truck to catch a fly. I don't know why she swallowed a fly. Wouldn't the new mini-MXO2 work better if we were to go that route?

Donald, this is another case of so close, yet so far. I think what would serve the purpose for both of us (and most of other users) would be a storage device with SDI/Firewire 800 ports and a thumb pictures of the clips, AA battery powered about 1 pound. I am shooting on Rainier at 14,500 feet and laptop is out of the question. I hear your need, what I am trying to do is to suggest the solutions with existing equipment you already have or equipment already is on the market.
I think the fix should be that the manufacturers should think about whole systems rather just individual pieces of equipment, in real production world.
Now back to regularly scheduled program;)

Damn! You're a better man than I! Are you shooting with an HM100 or HM700? I sure would be interested in seeing a few seconds of the video posted online. As soon as I get my cards back I plan to post a few seconds of nicely lit (in my own mind, anyway) interviews I did yesterday with an HM700.

Donald -

I hesitate to link to this, because it is a no-name product being sold on eBay, and there's a very low chance that it would work with HM100/HM700 files, but it does _claim_ to support full HD, MPEG2, and .MOV files:

Full HD 1080P HDMI Media Player H.264/MKV/RMVB CardRead - eBay (item 250427483745 end time Jun-17-09 20:00:27 PDT)

Also, given the price, the image quality (at least on composite / component) might be just atrocious.

Anyone want to take a $109 gamble?

One more lead... I've found a US-based importer/vendor who is willing to test an HM700 file on a media player product he markets. I'll be sending him a link today.

Great work Bob. I read the eBay listing carefully. It indicates MPEG-2 and it indicates .MOV files, but, and correct me please, isn't the underlying CODEC XDCAM-EX?

And, is there such a thing as an HDMI-to-SDI converter?

Don Smith - NewsVideo.com

It's my understanding that the fundamentals of XDCAM-EX are variants upon MPEG2 ... how much is different and how much is in common I'll leave up to greater geeks than me to explain.

There are a few out there in the $500+ range.

Here's one I turned up first on Google:
HDMI to HD SDI converter

Yes, both. Blackmagic and AJA make hdmi to sdi converters (and vice versa). For just under 500.00 usd, plus you need battery power or an ac adaptor.

I know there are cards SxS size that you can put SDHC cards inside. Like this one:MxM Express As far as I know at present they are not good for recording but will playback. So if you shoot in MP4 wrapper you'll be able to handle to your producer what should work like a standard XD-Cam Card that he should be able to see. The cost is only 50$... should be worth the test

If you want to play with the big boys, bring the big boy's wallet!

If you want anything with SDI, be prepared for 4 digits in the price. That's all there is too it. Since each company has their own formats, each company will have to R&D their own device. It would be hard for an outside company to provide a cheap product that does everything. Theoretically, you're better off with a pre-existing format but it is a 'professional' format demanding professional prices.

I have been a Microwave van operator and have helped out in a Sat truck. I've been there when the photog has just made air and has missed their slot. I think a lot of photogs think they're job is to capture the story--wrong, your job is to get the story on the air. There's a choice you have to make: when to stop shooting and either edit your footage or send it to someone who will.

And, as others have said, for now, a laptop is the way to go. Yeah, it would suck because you've got the laptop and these lumps hanging off it to get SDI out but that's what you've got. I've not made an exhaustive study of remote vehicles but I'm guessing most have a desk big enough for a laptop.

I finally got my HM700 and did a setup only using the flip-out screen. I crushed the blacks a little and boosted the chroma. Looked great there. Came home and it was too chroma heavy according to my monitor but the client reported that the clips looked great. He described them as "warm and friendly" and boy, that's the opinion that counts.

I did a quickie cut of four clips and reduced the chroma and posted them at:

JVC GY-HM700 Sample Edit

I may do the same cut but leave the chroma the way it came out of the camera and get everyones opinion. Maybe later this Friday night or I'll do it Saturday morning.

My reduced chroma version is nice but not as great as I wanted it to be. I know the camera has the potential, it's just a matter of getting used to it.

I forgot to mention that the video linked above was shot at 1920x1080p.

I just noticed that when I put the URL to my sample edit, the URL disappeared in the post above and it was replaced with the title from the page of my sample edit. Nice! I've never seen that before.

I posted the following message in a new threat called "Example Footage - Interviews"
- -
I'm going to give you two links.

In the first link I may have gone overboard in boosting the chroma of the picture.

In the second link I reduced the chroma in Final Cut.

Tell me which you like better.

JVC GY-HM700 Full Chroma

JVC GY-HM700 Reduced Chroma

Don Smith
NewsVideo.com

Even with reduced chroma (imo) the the skin tones are unnatural, pinkish-red. Or maybe my eyes are off today?

The high chroma is where I had set the camera (looking at its flip-out screen). The lower chroma is the high chroma video with a Color Corrector 3-Way filter. I think that had the camera been set with a lower chroma to begin with, then the skin tones would look more natural.

I'll do a new test over this weekend with the camera set to less chroma.

The camera doesn't shoot mpeg4 </sigh> Neither does the sony EX1/3
it's mpeg2 in a wrapper called .MP4.
The .mov files ARE the same mpeg2 codec. Why on earth would you want an obscure format like .mp4 ?

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. I guess I should have said, why would you want *.mov files when you can give *.mp4 files.

It's all the XDCAM EX codec, right?

I just meant if the person's setup is best equipped to handle XDCAM EX in *.mp4 wrappers, why give them in *.mov wrappers?

Or mayber I'm just confused.