MiniDV Tapes Quality Endurance? at DVinfo.net
DV Info Net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > The Long Black Line

The Long Black Line
Tape, tape and more tape; and decks; HDV, DV, VHS and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 2nd, 2009, 02:33 AM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Athens
Posts: 14
MiniDV Tapes Quality Endurance?

Hello at all, I am new to this Forum. I need your help about 3 DV concerns I have:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Do MiniDV Tapes dergrade by the number of times they are played as it happens when they are re-recorded?

2) If recorded MiniDV Tapes are ideally stored, what is their approximate Shelf Life before starting being degraded?

3) After how many hours of CamCorder use is it advisable to perform Head Cleaning using Head Cleaning Tapes?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would be really thankful for any help!
Alexis Avon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2009, 04:07 AM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Billericay, England UK
Posts: 4,711
1) If you're rough with your tapes, constantly stopping, starting, shuttling, cueing and reviewing, ejecting, reloading then they will indeed be subject to stresses and strains. Tape is very thin, vulnerable, complex and cheap - so treat it with care and understanding.

Re-recording a tape is exactly the same as playing the tape from an engineering stress-inducing pov, so don't be afraid to do either. Reusing tape is the *only* way to retrieve the information from it.

2) Tens of years. The signal is digital and very hard to erase or corrupt. I used a 10 year old Sony tape just last month. Perfect.

3) Depends. If you work in very dusty or smokey environments, change tape types a lot and don't box your cassettes but pile them in your pockets then you'll be using the head cleaner more frequently than if you're a careful operator.

tom.
Tom Hardwick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2009, 04:49 AM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England
Posts: 444
Have to agee,after a tape debate somewhere i decideded to test some of my earliest 1998 dv tapes and all the ones i tested still played perfectly.
Martyn Hull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2009, 08:16 AM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: St. Catharines, ON
Posts: 63
Artifacts

The most common issue I've had with reusing tapes is artifacts showing up in freshly recorded video. I've had this happen after only a few uses, and it can completely ruin a much needed shot. It's basically little squares of previously recorded material showing through your new footage. Often these squares will just be green or purple, which is effing annoying. I decided to start blanking over my tapes, in an effort to reduce artifacting. I'll rewind the tape(in a deck other than the camera if possible to avoid head wear), and set up the camera to record with the lens cap on. Another way is to set up the tape in your deck, and drop a black screen onto your timeline in your edit software, making sure it will be long enough for the tape to run out. Then just record the black onto the entire tape.

In reality, if there is a problem with the tape, this technique will likely not fix it. Sometimes though, the artifacts are caused by a head that needs cleaning, so don't just throw out the tape without checking it(unless you have some money to burn). I've simply started to use this technique because the artifacting isn't as easy to see when it is black, as opposed so some colour unnatural to your shot. It will get you by in a news shoot, but you're still screwed in most other applications. Thats why it's best to carry a few brand new tapes with you, in case theres something you absolutely must get in the first shot.
Matt Ratelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2009, 09:36 AM   #5
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Billericay, England UK
Posts: 4,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Ratelle View Post
I decided to start blanking over my tapes, in an effort to reduce artifacting.
Halving the life expectancy of your whole tape deck (not just the heads) is a huge price to pay for re-using tapes Matt.
Tom Hardwick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2009, 11:18 AM   #6
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: St. Catharines, ON
Posts: 63
Thats true...perhaps I'll just always use new tapes from now on. No harm in starting a library of footage I suppose!
Matt Ratelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2009, 11:30 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Billericay, England UK
Posts: 4,711
You wouldn't use a new untested microphone on every new shoot yet they cost tens of times more than even the most expensive HDV tape. So why use an untested, very complex (28 precision parts), very cheap component part called the tape cassette? Once I've tested the tape (come home from a shoot, rewound it and played it into my pc) I know it's a goodie - better than any new tape right off the shelf.

Remember - at the price we pay for tape there's no human inspection whatsoever. You and I are the testers.

tom.
Tom Hardwick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2009, 05:18 PM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,088
Tom, I have to say that is one of the most UNIQUE "arguments" I've ever heard for reusing tape. I'm not sold but thanks for the viewpoint.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2009, 06:04 AM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Billericay, England UK
Posts: 4,711
It's not really an argument Shaun - I'm just advocating that we test all of our equipment before we head out on an important shoot. We test expensive equipment so we should be even more aware that cheap equipment needs more throrough testing. Cheap complex equipment that's had no human end-of-line inspection (tape) falls neatly into this category.

tom.
Tom Hardwick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2009, 11:02 AM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 692
I had the exact thing that Matt describes with the "blocks" showing through.

Here is what I found. I've been testing various modes, etc. with a new Canon HV30 with a Sony Premium DVC tape (blue wrapper).

I recorded, and re-recorded tests on the first few minutes of the tape. Initially everything looked great, but after rewinding and re-recording just a few times, I started getting these "block" artifacts. At first I thought the camera was defective, (which it actually was, but for a completely different reason- a hair or dirt on some internal part of the camera showed on full zoom).

With a new tape, the recordings seemed fine. I had no idea how poodle-ish tapes can be.

My conclusion is to NEVER rewind until the end of a one hour tape, and just use a new tape after that. The few dollars for a new tape can be thought of like a new roll of film.

Jonathan
Jonathan Levin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2009, 06:31 PM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hillsborough, NC, USA
Posts: 968
FWIW, I have tapes from 10 years ago that play as good as the day they were recorded (same is true for 20 year old Video8 tapes). Stored in a draw - nothing fancy. I also have one particular tape that I have played, wound, paused more than 30 times and it is just fine (9 years old). I use it for software development.
John Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2009, 02:31 AM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: France
Posts: 578
Hi
This is one of the reasons I'm desparate to go tapeless...these cheap flimsy cassettes are a real weak link in the system...

For each job I alwqays use a new tape... only very rarely a re-used a tape...(once shot and edited they go to my archive box). I have had very few drop outs and after many hundreds of them run through several different cameras I have yet to have a faulty tape...

So to pick up on Tom's argument the law of probabilities tells me that I'm safe with new tape stock. So what if re-using tape actually increases drop outs?
To my mind its the whole tape mechanism too that is part of this weak link...small springs, heads and rollers that can clog and eat tapes, just so much to go wrong... God how do I ever shoot and assignment?

An SXS workflow is looking better every day... just need the spondoolies now...

Cheers
Gareth
__________________
www.gwenllyn.com
Gareth Watkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2009, 06:41 AM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Billericay, England UK
Posts: 4,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Watkins View Post
So to pick up on Tom's argument the law of probabilities tells me that I'm safe with new tape stock.
Tom's argument is quite the opposite Gareth. If the production process from raw materials to finished MiniDV tape is 99.99% perfect (Ho Ho Ho) then there are tens and tens of faulty MiniDV tapes sitting on dealer's shelves waiting for you and me to buy them.

The full take over of flash memory can't come soon enough.

tom.
Tom Hardwick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2009, 01:09 PM   #14
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 1,997
I reused non-full tapes a few times this summer and I lost track of what footage was on what tape, etc. THe footage was just fine with the multiple uses, but for me it was not even close to being worth the hassle of tracking down that b-cam footage from event X and finding which other event had those few minutes.

I decided it was well worth it to just buy another 50 tapes from a big supplier and be done with it. It only ran me $150 or so for the tapes, and now I"m set for this years shoots (hopefully I'll run out 1/2 way through which means a busy year!)
Jason Robinson is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY USA

Scan Computers Int. Ltd.
+44 0871-472-4747
Bolton, Lancashire UK


DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > The Long Black Line

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:45 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network