GoPro for backpacking?
 

I make backpacking videos and am always looking for a lighter camera to carry. Is GoPro Hero one to consider or is it too limited in its fisheye view for such a project? Many shots are panoramic and on the screen for a while. Does GoPro's mechanics encourage one to mainly shoot "trick" shots or strange angles of short length?

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

It's a good additional camera for certain things like: wide close ups, panoramics, POV, moving & dangerous/risky shots. But you might be better off augmenting a traditional camcorder with a wide & teleconverter adapter. For example, the Canon XA10 or the HF G10.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Good question and one no one can answer. It depends on your expectations of a camera.
Micheal's suggestion is a good one.
I difficult things, either out in the sticks crawling around bears or in heavy crowds during news events.

I've sold my bigger cameras and the G10 is becoming my go to camera. The only real difference between the XA10 and the G10 is XLR inputs ant they rattled on the XA, so I returned it for the G10.

It's a fantastic camera but not a true backpack one IMO.

The 7D is still the love of my life and I kept it but sold my 5D MkII, Still not my ideal BP camera though.

I have 6 GoPro HD Hero's and two of the HD2's and I never go anywhere without at least one of them. They are not the perfect backpack camera either but he HD2's are getting close.

They are waterproof, small, light, very sharp image both video and still, extra batteries are light and a small solar charger will charge them.

The FOV and related distortion can be all but eliminated in the HD2's set in 1080 narrow.
A manfrotto superclamp is all you really need to carry as far as an extra support and you can do without that if you have to,

I'd say it's certainly worth you trying it. You do have to adjust YOUR habits some because of the lack of controls, but that isn't all that bad.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

For my last backpacking video (which took 7 years to complete) I shot with the venerable but old Sony HC-3. It was my first venture into the world of HD as well. But the gear (camera, extra battery, extra tapes, blue-tooth mic, tripod) weighed about 4 to 5 pounds. For long-distance hiking where I have to be responsible for carrying everything I might need for a week or longer, that 5 pounds of gear got to be a real headache. So for my next trip, even tho' I really liked the blue-tooth mic set-up (very light and easy to use), I'd like something much lighter and not tape-based.
I suppose something like the GoPro would encourage me to shoot all sorts of weird angles I might otherwise never consider.
I'll check out those other cameras you mention...

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

The GoPro is like a little rock Lynne - impervious to the elements, the knocks and bumps of back-packing life. And as others have said it can be with you where 'er you be.

It does have its downsides though and if audio is important in your films (it should be) then know that the onboard mic is limited in what it can do, and is even more constrained when the camera's in it's tiny housing. Of course your films may be post dubbed, in which case this isn't much of a concern.

The GoPro controls its exposure by varying the gain and shutter speed, so won't look as fluid as your HC3 footage. But the weight and bulk saving will make you sing.

You'll need the rear screen which adds to the cost and size and battery consumption, but you'll hold in your hand an excellent still and movie camera and have an audio recorder as well.

The super-wide look can get a bit monotonous and the barrel distortion is hard to hide, but I have no complaints about the picture sharpness in air - under water things aren't too good. Of course the exposure can't be locked, so anything against the light or against the dark will be incorrectly exposed. Fine if you're falling out of an aeroplane, not so good if this is the footage you want to sell.

Might be worth looking at a far cheaper alternative:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/new-micr...ocolis-hd.html

tom.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Thanks for those links Tom, the Crocolis HD looks like a very interesting alternative.
I'd like to see some more material shot with it.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

I'm looking hard at the Crocolis Tom. I'm trying to decide if I really need another POV. I'd have probably have already ordered it if Amazon wasn't so much higher than the site you gave.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

How does the Crocolis record? Build-in memory or is there a slot for SD cards?

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Hi Lynne

It has 64M memory built in which is really only good for a few stills!! Yes, it accepts SDHC cards to 32GB!

I still like my GoPro as I can change POV angles...at 1080 the Croc is fixed at 142 degrees which means you are always super wide angle whereas the GoPro allows POV to be changed from Extreme (170) to (fairly)Normal around 90 degrees.

The Croc is way cheaper of course but I haven't seen any comparisons with quality??? The GoPro records at 12 mbps ...dunno what this one records at..the specs just say 5megapixel sensor???

Chris

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Don Lynne and Chris - it's as if you haven't read the Extreme Cam's spec or watched the very good test on YouTube. It's fitted with a 5mp sensor (same as the GoPro1) and has an integral rear screen (unlike the GoPro). There's no built-in memory but like Chris says you can feed it cheap SDHC cards, Replacement batteries are ridiculously cheap, £4.99 at 7dayshop, delivered. 3.7v 1800mAh.

5mp stills turn out to be 2592x1944, and 2592x1944=5.03 Meg, so that's the size of the sensor. 1080p/25 is 7.83 mbps Chris, and 720p/25 is 5.62 mbps.

1080p is available at 25 and 29.97Hz, at 29.97 it delivers a 1920 image, at 25Hz the image is 1440 wide. In the 29.97Hz case, the delivered content resolution limits at 1268x810. The image is formed from a central cropped section of the sensor, 1920x1080, so the resolution can't ever get much better than this, same as in the Sony A1/HC3 Lynne.

720p mode is from a larger part of the sensor, 2560x1440, exactly twice 1280x720, so you'd expect to get decent resolution, In this mode.In 720p it sees 172 degrees wide, in 1080p it's a more restrained 142 degrees (still pretty wide - same as a 15mm lens on a crop-sensor DSLR or 24 mm on full frame).

I like it. At a third the price of the GoPro and sharp under water it's a steal. But as I say, the audio is disappointing.

tom.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Hi Tom

Great info thanks! I was looking at the specs locally here and they specify 64mb internal memory and SDHC cards up to 32GB. However more often that not our "specs" are translated from the Chinese ones so they are quite oftem inaccurate!!

As you say a LOT cheaper than a Go Pro !! Here the GP is $399 + $129 for a back...the Croc here is a mere $167.00 complete!!!

Chris

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Well I took my new little 'waterproof' Chinese Ebay Extreme camera to the pool this morning and got some ace shots of the swimming team. I had on my big fins which allow me to keep up as I skim along the bottom at about 2m down, holding the cam in two hands, while the swimmers fly along the surface. Only auto exposure of course, so the pool's skylight sometimes silhouetted the swimmer. Used 720p for the widest angle, as of course under water you lose a lot of that.

Much nicer to use than the GoPro because the Extreme cam has a decent rear screen and you can instantly see if you're recording or not. But best of all the footage is super-sharp under water. The Blu-ray I shot on the GoPro certainly isn't sharp - underwater it's not even SD quality.

I showed the pool attendant the tiny cam who said, 'Fine, go ahead' which was gracious of him. I showed him some clips on its tiny 1" screen later and even the audio sounded ok.

And I'm pleased to report that it's really water-tight as against - er - splashproof. .I thought about applying a tiny dab of special underwater housing grease to the rear door seal but then thought better of it; best I test it as it comes and as you guys will be using it.

tom.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

How does the Crocolis HD compare in size & weight versus the GoPro? I was going to fly my GoPro HD2 on my AR.Drone but it turns out that the camera mount is now unobtainable. If I am going to have to fabricate my own mount If the Crocolis HD is smaller &/or lighter it could be interesting not to say at 1/3 price I would be happier to risk it crashing out of the sky.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

The GoPro is smaller and probably lighter, but the Extreme cam is only 196g complete with battery and card so no big deal I'd have thought. The GoPro gets bigger if you include the LCD screen and the bigger housing to accommodate same. The GoPro has an f/2.8 lens as against the Extreme's f/3.6, so the former is better in low light. Not a problem you'd face flying. They both top out at 400 ISO.

tom.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Hi Nigel

That's a shame!! I would assume that one needs a bottom mount so you are not filming the propellers??? Keep us up to date on developments ...A bottom mounted GroPro is what I want as well but you have to mount it under the AR Drone so it keeps the Drone's own bottom camera FOV clear which makes for balance issues cos it's off centre. One also needs to worry about landing as a bottom mounted camera will be the first thing that makes contact with Mother Earth unless you devise some sort of landing legs!!

Chris

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

The landing is the big problem I encountered Chris. Making a 45 degree bottom mount for the GoPro is relatively easy but without the case (It adds too much weight).
The coating on the bare GoPro lense is as soft as butter and scratches if you look at it hard. A cage of some sort is needed and that adds bulk and weight.

The Replay just seems made for the AR Drone. I mounted it, added a Velcro collar around the lens and it lands on the Velcro collar. Industrial zip tie legs on the rear level it.

I found the AR handled forward weight better than rear weight, which makes it a lot easier to mount.

That at least gives me a reason not to regret buying the Replay.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Thanks Don

At the current moment I have my Hero 2 but no drone yet hence the thinking on mounting the hero on the AR Drone. You certainly don't want to have to land on the camera ... maybe a cage made from a composite material would be strong yet super light... the foam sandwich technique is very light.. I wonder if one could make a foam mount (with a protective cage for the camera) out of say 1/2" square strips of polyurethane foam coated with a thin resin/coth or just resin sealed...that would be both stiff and strong!!

Pardon my ignorance but what does the indoor AR body weigh?? is that just foam or a hollow cast ??? Maybe that could be re-built totally to form a cage and still not add to the weight???

Chris

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

The Replay HD does look more suitable for flying on the AR.Drone as it is lighter than a even a naked GoPro. Putting the GoPro in its protective case just about doubles the weight.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Hey Nigel

I don't want to have to buy another cam AND something to lift it and the idea of the AR Drone appealed to me!! Then again I know guys are using kites and a parafoil has enough lifting power to pick up a baby elephant.

I'm essentially looking for smooth estabishing aerial footage rather than any fancy stuff ....what would happen if we went more "antique"?? I was maybe think something as simple as a square cage that is picked up by a helium balloon... like a sorta "mini zepplin" ?? Would one be able to control it if there were 4 control lines from each corner of a suspended cage?/ I would have thought so!! Balloon suspended footage should be pretty smooth. For weddings all I want is a semi-aerial shot of maybe the front of the Church but it would also ne neat to have aerial footage of the wedding party BUT not too high.

I seriously only need views from maybe a 2nd storey balacony so getting the Hero up to say as little as 20' above people's heads might not need such a sophisicated system!

Any other ideas

Chris

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Chris, there are extendable poles you can use for this. I've used both 30m carbon fibre antennae test poles and 6m aluminum types all hand held. The 30m one telescopes down to 1.8m. Painters poles are also good to 6m+. Much better control than a model plane and you can run with it smoothly/pan etc.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Thanks Ian!!

That's a LOT cheaper than a quadricopter too (excluding crashes!!) I just figured it might be nice to have an aerial shot of the bride arriving in front of the Church so I could probably go for a 6m aluminium pole (Hmmm now who owns a swimming pool with a nice long pole!!)

With the wide angle 6m might even be high enough ...I would have thought the 30m (that's nearly 100' up!!) would be quite tough to hold due to the windage alone!!

Thanks!! I will definately try some shots and next month is very sparce for weddings (nobody likes getting married in 42 degree (celcius!!) heat!!!

Chris

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

I have a 7.3m (24') Manfrotto lighting stand like this one MANFROTTO 269HDBU SUPER GIANT STAND BLCK - Thomann UK Cyberstore that I use sometimes with an electric pan/tilt head from Hague Hague Modified Remote Pan & Tilt Power Head MPH

BTW That Manfrotto lighting stand also gets re-branded as a super tall tripod/camera support at double the price http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/525379-REG/Manfrotto_269HDB_3U_Super_High_Camera_Stand.html

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

That's given me an idea!! The Mickey Mouse 6' lighting stands that come with kits are way too flimsy to use with a big head so I took the docking stand that came with my stedicam and 'grafted' on a lighting stand 2 section pole and that when the docking stand and dual section are extended goes way past ceiling height (I have never been able to extend it at a venue)

I must look at that and simply make a mount on the top for the Hero!! I'm sure I could get that up to around 8 metres which would give a nice overhead and wouldn't need an operator if I'm doing a solo wedding..just set it up at the outdoor ceremony or in front of the Church and let it run!!! Always better to use what you already have and it comes with me anyway for lighting at the reception!!

Thanks Nigel!!

Chris

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

I used to do transmission surveys at 30ft with the mast i posted above. I did post metres but meant ft. Yeah 100ft is definitely beyond me...haha
These are the ones i'm talking about.http://www.geodatasys.com/pole.htm

Damn imperial USA, when are you gunna catch up to the rest of the modern metric world. :-)

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Back to the GoPro, does anyone know a good reason why the Canon Elph:


for example, couldn't be used in place of the GoPro? Seems to have all the qualities, including an LCD panel on the back for half the price. What might I be overlooking, other than the weatherproofing?

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Lynne,

I have the GoPro Hero2 and have had several older Elph's. I think the GoPro makes sense if you want to mount it on your body or gear or want to use the weatherproofing feature. It shoots very wide, even in its narrowest setting. The video quality is good for the small package, ultra-wide angle and durability/weatherproofing. If you can protect your camera, you will be able to get better images from a traditional camcorder or perhaps a camera like the Canon S100. The GoPro is very light hungry, so don't expect good video at much less than full daylight.

You may want to consider the Panasonic TM900 which is currently on deep discount at B&H for $599.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/749839-REG/Panasonic_HDC_TM900K_HDC_TM900_High_Definition_3MOS.html

Fantastic camera in a very small package. It doesn't, however, excel in low light, but is much better than the GoPro's and probably the Elph. The zoom and IS should prove very valuable and you can get by without a tripod unless you are shooting serious footage. The optional high capacity battery it will give you about 3.5 hours of record time between charges. It has 32GB of onboard memory and an SD slot to store footage.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

This would be a far better choice than a GoPro which is designed for strapping to a snowboard or being immersed in water. There are many compromises in photo & video quality that go along with that robustness.

It's a little confusing as Canon have different product names for their consumer cameras in the US & Europe but it looks like the PowerShot ELPH 300 HS has identical specifications to the IXUS 220 HS. My wife has the previous model (IXUS 100 HS) & it is fantastic. So small & light that it is always in her handbag & records really quite decent 720p video (the IXUS 220 HS does 1080p). Still photographs are good too. It's a great camera to take backpacking. When we ordered it from Amazon it was a bit of a shock to discover quite how small it was as we had only seen photos but it's about the size & weight of an iPhone 4. If you really want to give it some rough treatment then there is an optional waterproof case available that is good down to 40m (130ft).

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Interesting perspectives from you all and I appreciate it.
Regarding the Elph, I'd use it as a "body cam" strapped to my chest (while backpacking but specifically while interacting with other people to record the conversation). But I wonder if the 24mm wide angle setting is too "tight" to accomplish that. (I'd have to rig up some sort of means of hooking a harness onto it.) Perhaps that ultra-wide angle is where the more expensive GoPro would excel.
Yet I don't need the weatherproofing capabilities of the GoPro set-up and, if I ever did use GoPro, I'd of course feel compelled to also get the LCD backpack (which adds more to the weight, battery consumption and hassle factor) to be able to monitor shots.
Which is why a cheaper set-up like the Elph is appealing.
As for the Panasonic 900, I'm still partial to my old Sony HC-3 because of its bluetooth audio capabilities. (I strap the wireless mic onto my ankle and it picks up my footsteps on the ground as much as 1/4 mile away.) I guess if I wanted to upgrade to a better Sony image it would be their 700 model with the hot shoe.
Unless, of course, Panny has the same sort of very light wireless mic feature...

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

I can't believe this thread got this far...

ANY real camera is better than a GoPro. They are terrible video/still cameras. TERRIBLE. I own a bunch of them. Buy a Canon S100 (or S95). It's the camera of choice of DVinfo moderators. Seriously. I guarantee you you will be thrilled with it. If you hike in the rain you can buy a soft waterproof case for $30.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

I find the array of different models that Canon produce bewildering. What advantages does the S100 have over the ELPH 300 HS (IXUS 220 HS)? Most specifications look the same (12.1 MPixels, 5X zoom 24-120mm 35mm equivalent etc) except the S100 weighs about 30% more than the 300 HS & costs almost double the price.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

Big (for a compact) sensor in the S100.
Plus external manual controls. I don't travel with DSLRs anymore.

On topic, an iPhone probably has a better camera than the GoPro.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

A bit more background...I've done backpacking videos since 1987. My first was a documentary on the Appalachian Trail, shot on super 8mm film. I've since used hi-8, mini-dv and most recently HDV with a Blu-ray release. I use an ultra-light tripod and even wireless mics (the bluetooth variety Sony has with its HC-3). But everything has to be packed in along with the normal backpacking gear for stretches up to a week at a time. Finally, I have two herniated discs and I'm 58 years old. So I'm in a bad mood if my gear weighs in at more than 4 pounds total.

The trail I'm hoping to shoot this time around is the Israel National Trail. The first 2 weeks are in the Sinai desert where water has to be buried in advance.

As I said earlier, my 2nd camera (whether a GoPro or a Canon or something else) is to be used as a "chest cam" that I can use for my interactions with people--taxi drivers, other hikers, hostel owners, whoever. So its quality doesn't have to be stellar but certainly should have acceptable audio and I shouldn't have to be worrying if I'm cutting someone's head off.
The advantage of GoPro, I suppose, is the ready availability of a chest harness and all the clip mounts and its super wide angle.
The Elph advantage is that it's cheap, its auto controls are okay for 'run and gun' and its video quality is better than GoPro.
The S100 advantage is its manual controls (which would be useful especially if I were using this as a back-up to my Sony). Both it and the Elph are 24mm.

Unless I'm missing something...

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

A trip to Home Depot is all it takes to fab a chest harness for any small camera (though easier if you buy the GoPro one as a base).

I can see how a chest interaction camera would suit the GoPro with the ultra wide/high lens, BIG advantage to the GoPro. However, audio out of the GoPros is bad, especially in a case (which you need to mount to the chest rig). FWIW you should probably try and shoulder mount for a better angle if you are talking to people.

IMHO, you should rent a GoPro for a day or buy one from a place (Best Buy?) that's easy to return to. The real advantage of the S100, by the way, is that it's phenomenal in low light with the big sensor. The GoPro turns to pudding in anything but very good lighting (I may exaggerate slightly, but really, what you see in all their promo stuff is best case only).

Try em both out in person, go from there.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

How's the audio on the S100? Acceptable? Tinny? Probably no external jack, right?
I didn't realize the GoPro required a case with the chest mount. The mud situation sounds pretty grim too. Is there any "fan" site for the S100 where devotees have congregated? Are people trying to do amazing things with it (like shooting feature films)? Is it the best camera, ounce for ounce, on the market now?

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

A few reviews are panning its battery life, though...saying it's a deal breaker for them!

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

As this interesting discussion winds down, I'm still left with the question "Ounce for ounce and dollar for dollar and pixel for pixel, what's the best video camera out there?" (I may even pose that as a new thread because, clearly, I'm so unaware of what's out there.)

But I'm still thinking that, after all is said and done, it may be the Canon Elph 300...

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

If you are willing to spend $600, I'd go with the TM900. If you are limited to $400, consider the TM90 ( haven't used, but its a scaled back, smaller version with less features and lower grade lens). There is a very long discussion on the TM900 you may want to look into.

I used to use the HC3 as well and loved it. The TM900 is about the same size, but is quite an upgrade in low light and good lighting.

My two cents worth!

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

We have been using the Drift Innovation HD 1080p and Swann 1080p FREESTYLE HD 1080P on an adventure series. An inexpensive water proof case can be purchase for the Drift. It has a wireless remote that you can wear on your wrist, offers a small LCD display making it much easier to compose a decent shot, and offers a 9MP sensor for really decent image quality. It will also record in 25 or 30fps at 1080p which makes cutting the material into a 24fps timeline a whole lot easier.

The Swann is a 8MP sensor but the kit comes with a water tight case and the LCD display is removable. It also comes with a remote.

Both are quite small relative to the GoPro and Contour HD POV cameras.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

I'm with Roger - the near-universal camera is the SD900, and it's price:size:weight:performance ratio is outstanding. It's a camera that will handle almost anything and bring back startlingly good pictures and sound, movies or stills. OK, it's not waterproof and its 35mm wide-angle is so-so but it's a filmmaker's dream in a tiny package. Your 'ounce for ounce and dollar for dollar' question is answered.

Yet I sense that you're not really a filmmaker Lynne, you're an adventurer that wants to bring back the glories of your expeditions to let others bathe in your excitement. All the cameras listed here have their USPs, all have their pros and cons. But I keep coming back to the fact that the Sony HC3 has served you well all these years, and the SD900 is the bang up2date version of that.

It's no chest cam, so a GoPro (with the open back to let the mic hear better) could be a very lightweight addition to your pack. The GoPro is famous for good reason, and herby speaks a man with an Extreme cam and an SD900. Same SDHC cards but different batteries of course.

tom.

Re: GoPro for backpacking?
 

I like all this hard-won wisdom accumulated from the field, and not just theory.
Does the Panny TM900 have a similar ultra-light bluetooth wireless mic? (The Sony's is so easy to use, no wires or dangling cables, and it weighs only a couple of ounces.)
The Canon Elph 300, auto everything, at $170 and just over 4 ounces, doesn't ring your chimes?