The best audio?
 

Here's my objective...I'm planning a hike in Israel--the 600-mile Israel National Trail. I'll be carrying my rather bulky old Sony HC-3 along with all my camping gear and 6 liters of water (heavy) on my back. But I'd like a 2nd camera (therefore it must be light, which is why I'm thinking POV stuff) to strap onto either my chest (not dorky looking) or head (definitely dorky looking) for those occasions where I'm either (1) dangling from a ladder while scaling a cliff or (2) simply interacting with other people and recording their conversation.

Now, I ordered VIO's "POV HD" to check out but I am not happy with its bulk. (One bulky camera is enough!) With head strap, the total unit weighs over one pound and you're always dealing with a rather stiff cable (though admittedly the LCD screen is convenient). I'll be sending this back.

Here's my question...given that all POVs by definition seem to offer 160 degree angles of view for blindly capturing everything in front of you..is there ANY unit that offers decent (I can't hope for great, can I?) audio? Obviously I'd like to record conversations (see #2 above). If it sounds far-off or tinny, what good is that

Or are bad audio and great wide angles simply the way it is?

Re: The best audio?
 

Hi Lynne

I was quite surprised how clear the audio was on the Hero2 when you put on the skeleton door back...audio is even better with the full skeleton housing but in the outdoors probably the non-waterproof door is good enough.
Regardless of camera..if you are going to semi-waterproof it in a housing then you cannot expect perfect audio but it still should be good enough without having a clip on lav mic when talking to people!!

What chest mount camera are you deciding on eventually???

Chris

Re: The best audio?
 

I'm not sure but I checked out these Eye 720HD glasses (sounds wacky but the demo sounded and looked pretty good) and that might solve my problem of trying to shoot and record audio without people being aware of what I'm doing. The chest cam and head cam aren't so inconspicuous.

Re: The best audio?
 

Hi Lynne,

given good weather, even if you only hike half a day you'll be more than fully occupied with the hike. Then eating, resting, sleeping, showering and washing clothes take a lot of time. Other people do the same and are not inclined to interact when engaged in those activities.

Instead I'd look at a basic monopod to stabilise the HC-3 and to get usable footage as a record of the trip, bone weary and handheld cameras don't go together.

Also take small compact stills cam as back up. Don't forget you'll need AC power to charge your batteries.

Cheers

Re: The best audio?
 

Never having handled a GoPro, I don't understand why having a skeletal housing around the camera would improve the audio? Wouldn't it do the opposite, muffle it? Or is there some sort of reflective principle operating here...it serves to "collect" sound and direct it towards the mic (which, if I'm correct, is on the back of the camera...what's up with that??)?

I agree that backpacking makes it difficult to be creative. I've found my shots are almost always taken early in the day when my creative juices are still flowing.

I'm intrigued by the light weight of cameras like GoPro. But I'm wondering if once all the necessary accessories (housing, mounts, ext. mic, tripod mount, harnesses) are included, the weight's right back in the Sony HC-3 category (of about 1.5 pounds). Can't win!

Re: The best audio?
 

Lynne:

The standard GoPro housing is a sealed, waterproof unit, so any sound has to get through the housing first. The skeleton housing has several openings for being able to connect USB cables, TV playback cables, etc...plus allows open air transmission of natural sound into the teeny tiny little mike opening in the GoPro camera.

Audio is not that great under the best of circumstances with a GoPro, but it's much less tinny and muffled with a skeleton housing. Just remember it's NOT water proof!!

Re: The best audio?
 

POV wasn't really meant to capture quality audio. My ContourHD 1080p cameras have a little tiny hole for the microphone. My advice is to get the camera that you want to wear given the available mounts/straps and worry about the audio in post. There is a lot you can do in post to make it bearable.

Below is a video I made with my ContourHD 1080p held in my hands while balancing my bike, please excuse the fumbling noises, from 20' away. When I heard the source I had pretty low hopes of fixing it. But, with Adobe Audition, and lots of After Effects stabilization, I was able to lower the noise and raise the voice and add some bass to make it bearable. GL

SDBC 12th Annual Cecy Memorial Ride - 2011/09/05 (remix) - YouTube

Re: The best audio?
 

The trouble with image stabilisation in post is that it makes the CMOS jello horribly obvious. I reverted to keeping the shaken footage from my Extreme cam rather than have the wobble.

Re: The best audio?
 

Well, I just got the Hero 2 to try out for 30 days so I'll find out how bad or good the audio can be. I'm surprised to find out the mic is located on the top of the camera. When inside the housing, skeletal or otherwise, the plastic enclosure is basically within millimeters of the mic. The only way sound will reach it is either THRU the plastic or through the holes they've created in the back of the housing or the side. Bottom line, the audio is reflected off the sides of the housing. So I'm not anticipating much of anything good from this arrangement. Seems like an ext. mic is the best hope.

Re: The best audio?
 

Has anyone here discovered the "best" ext. mic to use with the Hero 2? Especially as a "wearable" style (meaning a mic that sits on the side of the camera but doesn't project into its field of view)?

I tried a tiny dynamic mono mic I had (about the size of 1/2 my little finger) but that didn't even pick up at all. I have a Sennheiser shotgun that operates on a watch battery but it's mono and it's an awkward size. Suggestions? Or are there no mics that really fit the size and shape of such a camera?

Re: The best audio?
 

The audio problem with Hero 2 is strange indeed. I tried a couple mono mics (one dynamic, one condenser) and only the later one worked (barely...sounded distant). Then hooked up a stereo mic (broadcast quality Sennheiser) and that didn't work either.
What is the problem with GoPro's audio? No gain controls? High impedance? Did they release that ext. mic jack "improvement" before it was really ready?
Their customer support is enthusiastically vague about all this. They are unwilling (or unable) to recommend a mic they deem workable.

Re: The best audio?
 

The silence in response suggests not many GoPro heros have tried an external mic, Lynne. Thing is, all the mics you mention are near-field mics, that is they're designed to be used close to the sound source. Even if you plugged in an expensive K6/ME66 it still works best close-up, the 'shotgun' tag simply meaning it rejects sound outside its acceptance funnel.

All of us here know pictures are easy and sound is hard.

tom.

Re: The best audio?
 

I feel like starting a thread called "GoPro's Dirty Little Secret!"
I've got 30 (now 23) days to try the Hero 2 and it's like I have to reinvent the wheel. I realize from the get-go it's tough integrating an ext. mic with the camera if for no other reason than it's going to protrude into the frame if it's a shotgun.
Attaching a bracket as some have suggested is not an acceptable solution as that defeats the mobile nature of the camera. Nor do I want to use a separate audio recorder for the same reason...too much fumbling around with extra devices.
Surely there is a "peanut" omni-mic who's internal characteristics mesh well and whose design at least puts the mic elements outside that muffling plastic housing. But what is it? Does one exist? Mum's the word.

You're right...audio is fudged by most users because everything's music-driven these days. Shoot and make a music video out of it. What ever happened to cinema verite?
I

Re: The best audio?
 

Have up looked at the Sony ECM-DS30P Compact Stereo Microphone with 1/8" Stereo Mini Connection.

You have to use the skeleton housing and it has a swivel point where it almost points forward once inserted in the GoPro and comes with a windscreen.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/388984-REG/Sony_ECMDS30P_ECM_DS30P_Compact_Stereo.html

Re: The best audio?
 

Funny how the GoPro customer service folks simply drop the ball on this issue. They're supposed to get back within 24-48 hrs...well, it's been like 4 days and I'm still waiting.

Anyway, funny you should mention the Sony mic. I just ordered that this AM along with the Olympus ME-51S to try out. (I get the impression the Sony mic's going to project waaaaay out, being as long as the GoPro camera itself is! The Olympus, on the other hand, is more T-shaped but without a windscreen.)

There is not an easy solution. Shotguns aren't practical. Cheap give-away thumbtack mics (like $1) hardly seem worth considering. Of course, the weak link may very well be NOT the mic but the camera's audio processing. Maybe that's why a one-dollar mic can actually be considered a legitimate contender! Jeesh, what a world we live in.

Re: The best audio?
 

The Sony mic actually as a joint where you can bend it almost 80 degree and then it points forward so it does not stick out the full length. Do a google search for it under images and you will see what I am talking about.

Re: The best audio?
 

And bent forward, it's not visible at 170 degrees FOV?

Re: The best audio?
 

I just checked and no the mic is just out of frame bent forward.

Re: The best audio?
 

Two more questions, if I may.

Given that the mic is projecting out horizontally, and given that it's stereo ports are designed with a vertical mount in mind, how difficult is it to properly line the ports up to truly pick up "left" and "right" (rather than "up...towards the sky" and "down...towards the ground" or even "front...of the camera" and "back...where I'm holding it")?

And finally, how clean is the sound when all is said and done, and when it's boosted in editing? Is there a lot of hiss and static and noise in the background or is it about as clean as one can hope for distant (say, 10-20 feet away) sound sources?

Re: The best audio?
 

I only got the mic a few days ago and have not had a chance to test the audio from it. If the ports become an issue I was plan on using an 1/8" stereo right angle adapter to get the ports facing correctly by pointing the adapter upward and then attach the mic to it forcing the ports right and left but left would be right and right would be left due to the mic design but that should not be a problem as i can always swap them in post editing. Another solution would be a short 1/8" stereo extension and velcro it to the case. I hope to have time this weekend to do some testing.

Re: The best audio?
 

I'll be interested to hear your results. You're a few days ahead of me there, as I still don't have the mic. Nor do I have any way to test the audio other than the tiny on-camera speaker. (I have an HDMI cable on order but that hasn't arrived either.)

Be sure to listen for "cricket" sounds in the audio. I'm not quite sure what people are referring to there but evidently it's an issue.

If we can nail down that this Sony mic works well and that the audio is actually clean, this will be a big revelation!

But you know, I really need someone to pop my balloon right now before I get my hopes up too high. I'm planning to put the Hero 2's images up on my 50" plasma once the HDMI cables arrive. But I need someone to bring me back to earth and say "Lynne, this is not a $1000 camcorder. It's not even a $500 one. For $300 you're going to get a grainy, fuzzy picture whose colors don't look quite right. This ain't Hollywood, this is junkyard video." Please, someone shoot me before I discover for myself it's not possible to have a quality HD camera (good audio, good video) attached to my wrist.

Re: The best audio?
 

I finally got a reply to my question from GoPro's customer service:

The HERO2 does have 3.5mm Stereo External Mic Input. Unfortunately, we do not produce a mic for the camera. You would need to find a compatible third party microphone.

We don't have any official recommendations, and none that are wireless, but we did ask the Media Team what they use, and while they haven't chosen any favorites yet they have been using the following two regular wired mic's with decent results:-

Sennheiser MKE 400 Compact Video Camera Shotgun Microphone

EMW Omnidirectional Lavalier Microphone

For even more technical details about the mic input:

The camera provides a 3.1V supply to each microphone connection on the external mic connector. The 3.1V is supplied through an internal 2K resistor, typically making for a 2.5V mic bias.

The supply return is to the connector ground. Users need to be very sure about their adapters. If they are using a mono mic SLR to stereo jack adapter, they may be connecting their mic across the left and right mic inputs instead of connecting from a single mic input to ground.

Also, our mic bias may possibly be low for some mics. Often unpowered mics will require 4V and above for mic bais.
.................................................................................................... ...........................

I guess I should have specified my requirements better, as those 2 mics above are hardly portable. The EMW has an XLR connector, requiring an additional adapter. The Sennheiser has the mini-plug but its length precludes its being attached to the camera anywhere.

Re: The best audio?
 

It is interesting to hear that the mic port supplies plug-in power of 3.1v. As this opens up the option of the Boss BA-CS10 Stereo Microphone as it requires power.

Re: The best audio?
 

Good call! Finally a mini mic that has good specs.
I wonder if that mic bias of 2.5 v becomes an issue, however, as the Boss requires 3 volts. I don't quite understand it. Are you going to try it out?

Oddly, B&H has discontinued that mic...

I had sent GoPro's customer service back a reply saying I wish they'd compile a list of useable mics. It seems odd that we're expected to do the testing here when there's probably not that many good mics to choose from in the first place. What, are we the first ones to want decent sound?

Re: The best audio?
 

Now that my HDMI cable has arrived, I'm testing the Olympus mic along with two Sony mics, one being their bluetooth wireless.

But some questions...what is the "chirping" people complain about? I've heard two different weird sounds, both could be chirping I suppose.
One is a constant high pitched ring that accompanies the built-in mic. Any dialogue recorded close-up (within a few feet) has this associated with it.

The other was more of a breathing sound, about once a second, I noticed especially when using the wireless mic.

Either of these pass for "chirping"?

Re: The best audio?
 

http://goprouser.freeforums.org/wind...ro2-t4456.html

>http://goprouser.freeforums.org/wind-resistant-stereo-mic-for-hd-hero2-t4456.html<

Results of many different mics tested including samples

Re: The best audio?
 

My preliminary mic tests are pretty disappointing.
I'm hooking up the Olympus ME-51S, Sony ECM-DS30P and the Sony ECM-AW3 bluetooth one after the other into the external mic jack. I'm using the built-in camera mic as the reference. I play it back through my HDMI cable into my 50" Samsung plasma tv with its built-in stereo speakers.

As soon as I plug any mic in, there's this baseline low level but ever-present mid-frequency buzz that takes over. Mixed into that buzz (or churn or idling sound) is a ticking sound (almost like a grandfather clock) at about 1 cycle per second. I thought it might be electrical interference of the cable but it wasn't noticeable when playing back the on-camera mic recording so my HDMI cable couldn't be the problem.

Only the bluetooth didn't manifest the ticking sound but it still had a fair amount of hiss and of the three mics, lacked the most "presence."

At first I wondered if the right angle jack I was using was introducing the baseline buzz so I did a test with it plugged in plus tests where I bypassed the jack altogether and plugged the mics directly into the camera. It made no difference.

All I can say is that if one is recording loud, continuous sounds you probably won't notice what I'm describing. But for natural sounds, sounds in nature, quiet rooms...that's where this rumble/buzz/churning sound manifests.

Re: The best audio?
 

I am wondering if the buzz or clicking you are hearing is caused by the mic port having 3.1v power applied to it and using mic's not designed for it. I am not in front of my GoPro camera but wondering if you can disable the power to the mic port via a menu option.

Just read the over the link provided above and it is interesting as it states the mic port is not powered. So what is true, powered or not powered?

Re: The best audio?
 

I've never seen that on the menu choices.
Also, the Olympus mic says it's a plug-in powered mic requiring between 1.5 to 10 volts of power.
The Sony 30 also is a plug-in powered mic.
They both sounded equally bad in a quiet environment.
For what it's worth, I also ordered the Boss CS10 to try. It won't be here until mid-week.

Re: The best audio?
 

If they sounded bad in a quite environment then it must be a AGC issues with using external mics as I have not had that issue using the built in mic. I have no proof but my best guess.

Re: The best audio?
 

Yes, that whole discussion on the forum was oriented around the wrong premise, of the camera not providing power to the mic. But the GP email states just the opposite. My experience seems to bear that out as well, because whenever I'd insert a mic into the jack, an electronic buzz would briefly result as the tip of the mic passed by the "hot" contact.
As for AGC, I've heard a lot of different gain controls over the years and if this is AGC, it's new to me. Why the rhythmic ticking? AGCs I've heard have more of a "breathing" nature that intensifies when nobody's talking. This was a constant churning or interference sound, not changing at all, not influenced whether I was talking into the mic or not. The ticking was always present along with the electronic interference.
That's what it sounds like to me...an electronic interference from the camera itself. For what it's worth, I'm reporting all of this to the GoPro customer support team. I asked them if this is a firmware issue or a mic issue.

Re: The best audio?
 

I ran the same test using the same 3 mics today, just to verify my initial impressions. When listening to internal mic only, none of the sounds below are heard (except for a "kazoo-like" ringing that accompanies each word I speak into the mic, which by itself is bad enough).

Breaking down the electronic interference sounds:
1--there's a ticking sound present with all ext. mics except the Sony bluetooth
2-with all three mics, there's a high frequency hiss
3-with all three mics, there's a mid-range "gurgle," almost sounding like an idling scooter, or a dryer that's running.
4-the above sounds are injected into the sound track as soon as the rt. angle adapter (without any mics plugged in yet) is attached.

If I plug the mics directly into the camera, bypassing the adapter, the offensive sound is still there.

To cast a cynical eye upon all of this, when the instructions on the back of the camera warn the user about differentiating between audio recorded under 100 mph and above 100 mph, I suppose it's hard to take any audio output seriously. For the average extreme sports user, they're going to use a music track anyway. For those recording "sound," hearing gurgling (underwater), or hearing a voice (however broken up), is more than enough. Which leaves the rest of us documentary filmmakers out in the cold, with the only option being 2nd system sound with all its hassles for a long-form project involving hundreds of shots and hours and hours of footage.

One tantalizing and preliminary conclusion from the above is that the self-powered mic (the bluetooth) eliminates the ticking whereas the mics requiring power from the camera (the Olympus and the Sony 30) cause the ticking to occur. What to make of that, I haven't a clue.

Re: The best audio?
 

I find this all very interesting. However I think it is a mistake to criticize the go pro on sound when you consider the intended applications.

It is a "sports" camera. The mic performs well with wind noise and underwater. The intended applications.

I would abandon the go pro in your quest since it is not the intended application. At least from an audio point of view.

At a minimum find a different audio recording solution.

Re: The best audio?
 

I had a chance to play with my Sony ECM-DS30P last night and I am getting different results that you. I started recording without the mic plugged in and then continued to talk as I plugged in the Sony ECM-DS30P mic. I took the recording and pulled it into Adobe Priemer and noticed right way that the volume levels were way lower than the Sony ECM-DS30P. I did not hear any clicking or anything noise just a lot lower of a volume. I will have to do some more testing with mic direction to get a true stereo recording with the Sony as my right and left was not at equal levels.

Lynne - It may be possible that you have a bad circuit in the camera and may want to test with another camera to confirm. It is also possible that you are hearing feedback in the way you are testing by using the HDMI connected to a TV to monitor your audio. What kind of seperation/distance do you have between your camera and TV?

Re: The best audio?
 

I checked the HDMI cable, plugged it into a 2nd slot on the tv to see if that was the problem, moved the 6' cable around to make sure it wasn't crossing an electrical cable elsewhere causing interference...and it still sounds the same. (On closer listen, I would describe the "ticking" as 2 cycles per second, not 1 cps.)

I suppose it could be the camera but short of sending everything back (I'm 1/2 way through a 30-day trial period) and starting over, I don't know what else to do. At some point I'm probably taxing the patience of the seller...

This process of trying to figure out the source of the noise could be never-ending. (Is it the cable? The adapter? The mic? The camera? Cosmic rays?) I'd be more inclined to simply send the camera to GoPro and ask them if, in their opinion, the camera audio is "normal." If they would do such a thing, since by saying "yes" they'd be shooting themselves in the proverbial foot.

The lower volume may be the key...if you boost the volume up to what would be considered normal, that's likely where you'll hear what I'm hearing. Then too, I'm listening through speakers that are pretty good. If you're only hearing it through tiny laptop speakers, it may not be so obvious.

I realize the intended application for this camera is "extreme sports." Perhaps I'm wrong to lump backpacking into that category. But it still begs the question...why even put an ext. mic jack on the camera if audio wasn't to be taken (semi-) seriously? It seems as if their intended use for audio was as narration only, where the user is taking/shouting into a mic that's only 6" away. Under that circumstance, I suppose the audio's fine, either internal or ext. mic.
But for audio that's >5' away...(which I would classify as "natural sound") that's a whole other story!

Re: The best audio?
 

As i explained to you on the Goprouser forum Lynne, the GoPro audio was optimized for loud sounds like car engines roaring close by. As soon as things go quite, up goes the AGC and the internal noises and noise floor increases. It's the same issue people have with the audio on the GH1. If you watch any Gopro produced video by Head Editor Abe Kislevitz, you will notice they hardly ever use the cameras audio. That's telling you something.

Re: The best audio?
 

Here's the mystery of the ages then, Rambo, and I think others have touched upon it.

(1) Having done video for over 30 years now, I've come to assume that ext. mic ports are there to give you cleaner audio. Why then why would GP add one if it wasn't meant to do just that?

(2) Who's ever heard of a mic designed to pick up loud sounds but not quiet sounds? I've heard a lot of AGCs in my life, with their various responses and attack rates and all that, and GoPro's AGC, if that's what it is, is unlike anything I've ever heard. I don't hear any rise and falls, I only hear a constant noise floor that doesn't change whether I'm talking directly into the mic or talking 10' away.

The cynical me says this is audio not ready for prime time, in need of more tweaking before the next Hero release.

Re: The best audio?
 

It's just not designed for what you had in mind.

Re: The best audio?
 

Perhaps then it's a fitting eulogy to announce the results of the final mic, the cadillac of the plug-in powered mics, the Boss BA CS 10 at $80. (Drum roll please...)

Same as all the other mics...it couldn't resurrect the audio above the noise floor and the 2 cycle/sec ticks.
In the end, the built-in mic of the Hero 2 does the best of them all by managing to avoid this noise endemic in the ext. mic jack.

Re: The best audio?
 

Sorry hear that as I had hoped that at least on of them would work as I was not willing to purchase all of them. I only have the Sony and while the audio is low I am not hearing or seeing (video editor) any clicking sounds. I am still curious if your GoPro had a bad audio jack or circuit.