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Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Referring back to the youtube that had been converted to black and white, perhaps one reason why it stood out to me was because the removal of color then put the GoPro footage on par with any other camera! Which maybe is a poor testimony for the Hero's overall image quality but the colors have always looked rather flat to me. Maybe the protunes upgrade will address that issue?
As for handheld recorders, I've tried to track down a Brandon T. Hickey who wrote an article called "Audio to Go" in last month's Digital Video magazine. I haven't been able to get an email address for him, however. But that's the question I'd like to pose to him...what handheld recorder under $300 has the cleanest sound when all else is total quiet. Just recording "room noise" or natural sounds outside. The meter's not even moving. What sounds the cleanest, without white noise or static? (My old Zoom H2 wasn't clean at all under such conditions.) I'd crawl over broken glass to find a "cheap" recorder like that! Yes, I know I could pay thousands to find a high end recorder that delivers such results. But cheap, is it possible? |
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Ha! Actually,that's always been my dilemma. Embracing lightweight backpacking as I do (necessarily so), how can I hike a trail and make a video at the same time without violating my own principles?
Thus the search for the ultimate lightweight video "studio." Which is why it's hard to ignore Hero, in spite of its serious and many shortcomings. When I started making backpacking videos back in the mid-80s, I used 8-pound super 8mm film cameras and 12-pound tripods...strapped to my pack. That's 20 pounds!!! It was impossible, I quickly found out. Later on hi-8mm video bailed me out but only slightly. Between the camera and lighter tripods or even the Steadycam JR, I was still carrying 10 pounds of gear in my pack that was totally unrelated to the strenuous and taxing hike itself. (We're talking many weeks or even months of long-distance hiking for some projects I undertook.) Fast-forward to now, 25 years later, where my body has sufficiently broken down (herniated discs, gimpy knees, neuroma-plagued feet). If there's any hope of carrying on, it's only going to happen if I can find some camera and tripod and recorder whose TOTAL weight is under 2 pounds. That's including batteries and accessories. That's my dilemma. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Hey Lynne
Getting old really sucks doesn't it but we still stuggle on and act as if we are still in our 20's (I turn 66 this month BTW!!) I'm still reasonably OK but the wife also has a dicky knee and the same foot complaint. I was very pleasantly surprised yesterday when I was playing with some video done on a little Panasonic GH1 (it has been hacked to shoot at a bitrate higher than my big cameras) and I just relied on the tiny stereo mic on the top of the camera...it's audio is REALLY good and certainly good enough to do close interviews. I was quite surprised at the quality!!! There you have a camera that has pretty good built-in audio and awesome image quality. However I find it rather "fiddly" to use sadly and you still need to focus now and again as the AF hunts a bit. You certainly wouldn't have an IQ issue with that though and audio is excellent. How about a wireless lav mic like the VHF Azdens...I use one of my old ones as a comm unit between me and my second shooter but they would be great for interviews. There is not much better than doing an interview with a lav right under the subject chin for decent audio!! Chris |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
I suppose if I was going to go in the direction of a GH1, I'd probably stick with the tried and true Sony camcorders as I've used in past projects. Maybe my search for a true "pocket studio" will go nowhere but that's what I've been researching. Thus the Hero...
On my last project (which ended up on blu-ray), I used the Sony HC-3 with its wireless mic system. It was effective and convenient and cost-effective, altho' hardly high-end audio- or video-wise. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
3 Attachment(s)
GH1 or GH2 i awesome hacked. I just shot the entire 2days of interviews and on-water ocean racing footy with a GH2 and 14-140 HD kit lens, no fails in 500clips using FlowMotion settings. Check these screen grabs straight off the ungraded 1080 interlaced video via VLC. Natural light thru a window and a mobile School White Board used as a bounce board on the left hand side...haha improvising!! But awesome video camera. CLICK ON THE THUMBNAILS and then click twice to full size
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Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
How easy is it to edit this footage?
Once the hack is done, can you later switch back to the default camera video settings? How much hacked footage can a 32GB SD card hold? |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Hi Lynne
It all depends on what hack is installed ..I have a modest one that shoots around an average of 28 mbps so in AVCHD on a 32gb card you could probably squeeze in about 2.5 -3 hours depending on the footage. My proper cameras run at 24mbps variable bitrate as well and I get 90 minutes on a 16GB card. With the extreme hacks (not really advised unless you are prepared to put up with cameras crashing) will eat up card space faster!! You can install the original firmware back into the camera instead of the hacked firmware (some guys do this if the cam has a warranty issue) but there really is no need once a modest firmware hack is installed. On my version the footage is pretty pristine but then again it doesn't need to go to a local TV network for broadcast. Chris |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Has this hack been tested so that users have determined what the "sweet spot" is? In other words, if the normal rate is, (I'm not sure), 24 mbps, does bumping up to 28 produce major improvements? Or are only very subtle changes noted? Is its normal bit rate that "bad" that folks "must" hack it or does it actually produce amazing (or at least, very good) video without hacking at all?
I'm assuming these higher bit rates can easily be handled by MBP laptops using FCP, for example? Is there a lot of excitement about this particular hack and camera because it's the "cheapest" DSLR out there that can pull this off? Or is this just one of many such cameras in this price and gear range? Lots of questions, I know. I've just never considered such a camera as potentially useful for backpacking videos (due to size and weight). But I must admit its erg. design (the fact it can hang from one's neck on a strap) could work to my advantage where an ordinary camcorder couldn't. Does it offer zebra stripes for exposure or is it only histogram-driven? Has any web site emerged as the go-to place (besides this one, of course, which is my all time favorite) for fans of this camera and hack? Or is this too early in the camera's existence? |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Hi Lynne
To be perfectly honest I made a slight boo boo a few years ago and was shooting a Realty home simply to record condition and left my HMC82 in HA mode which is 17 mbps and the next day I forgot to change the bitrate to 24!! I couldn't tell any difference in that and previous footage and even at 1920x1080 either bitrate looked pretty much perfect. Unless you are shooting for a 3rd party who is insisting on a specific format and bitrate then I very much doubt whether you could tell which was which!! The more drastic the hack on a GH camera the more likely it is to crash or lockup ..I have read of guys shooting with a killer hack that runs the cam at something like 175mbps but the whole idea (apart for seeing how hard you can push it) is to get nice footage and flawless reliability!! For docs and such you would probably be quite happy with the footage from a standard camera!! Mine was hacked simply because the PAL models have a 30 min record limit..my other minor mods include NTSC/PAL selection and allowing a aftermarket battery to be used. Both the GH 1 and GH2 can be used for great video straight out of box if that suits you but a low end hack might suit you for a couple of extra features. The DVX forum has extensive posts on hacks!! Just also remember a GH isn't as easy to use as a camcorder at all...it's a different animal..even at controlled weddings my choice of which camera to use puts my GH1 at the bottom of the list as it's fiddly compared to normal camcorders - you often need focus correction and there is NO zoom button so you need to learn how to zoom with the lens ring and keep focus!! Chris Chris |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Lots to think about!
I'm at a crossroad. Do I opt out for a Hero 2/Canon Powershot S100 combo (light and portable, wearable on my sleeve literally, for a new angle and shooting option) and go for the "extreme sports" look (even tho' it's "only" a backpacking video) and everything that goes along with that look (blurry video, flat colors, subpar audio)? Or do I go with a "tried and true" albeit small Sony camcorder with all the limitations that comes with that, limitations I'm well aware of? Or do I explore an entirely new direction, that of the GH2 with its fiddlely controls and focusing and ergonomic issues? The classic dilemma of the age we live in. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Hi Lynne
The real answer is to do what the doc pros do..take along a camera crew!!! However if it were me I would still opt for an adventure cam and maybe an extra DVR for good audio. It's tough enough making your way down a rocky trail without a camera but trying to hold a camcorder or DSLR while you slip and slide down a rocky bank isn't my idea of fun...a GoPro on a chest mount still would be my choice..I rather like the idea of being able to film the actual hike ..the rough with the smooth. Then you can always take it off and have it on a tiny stand or wrap a gorilla pod legs around a tree branch for more formal interviews when confronted with the Indians of the Amazon rain forest. Then again, that's just me!!! Chris |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
chris
I tested the Hero 2 on my chest...it wasn't pretty. The viewer can only take a few seconds of that trash before they feel sick. Now I'm wondering whether the GH2 fastened to my upper chest (surely there's got to be a good harness/release developed years ago for press photogs or tourists even), with its stabilization circuits engaged, would end up producing a more pleasing viewer experience. Add to that the knowledge that POV cameras are producing rather crappy images whereas the GH2 stands a chance of "nicer" ones. That fact alone can serve as a motivating factor when you're out there sweating away under the hot desert sun. I'm wondering too if the audio (did you say it's only available as a hack?) is good enough that I could dispense with a DVR (I was looking at the Sony M1) and simply record via a mic mounted on the camera? So weight-wise, a GH2 w/ lens and battery is about 20 ounces. Compared to a decked out Hero2 (8 oz.) along with aback-up Powershot S100 (8 ounces) and a Sony M1 audio recorder(8 ounces). It's about the same. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Hi Lynne
I doubt whether any OIS system would handle the bouncing up and down on one's chest. Maybe you need to create the "Hike Mount" My only real reason for opting for an adventure cam was it can be left to do it's own thing. Now I'm invisaging serious hiking as scrambling down near vertical, slippery tracks and having to hang onto tree branches and you make your way to your destination....on the other hand you might be looking at a well kept wilderness trail that's almost level and a child could easily walk thru it with no assistance .... makes a huge difference to what system you need to have....the GH cams certainly would be great for nature rambles but not for going down the side of a mountain! AFAIK the audio is pretty much OK as standard on the GH series..the built in stereo mic is quite amazing and you need to try it before going out and buying an extra mic!!! Chris |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Regarding audio, I've routinely been disappointed by the hissy, noisy preamps found not only in cameras but in the hand-held recorders under $500. It would take one special camera to convince me otherwise!
The trail I'm hoping to do is the Israel National Trail. Much of it is "urban" style (dirt roads) and a 1/3 is desert that has some steep climbs up and down ladders or even rock cliffs in a few places. But it wouldn't be considered wild by any stretch. A challenging, very warm 600 miles which would take probably a couple months total. I checked that dvx users site. So much GH2 info spread out all over the place, it's rather overwhelming. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
What brings me back down to earth after considering the high quality images the GH2 produces...is knowing that the larger a camera is, the less likely I am to have it handy when I really "need" to take a picture!
That's why the Canon Powershot S100 caught my eye. The reviews I read said they left the clunky DSLRs at home but the Powershot went in their pocket everywhere. Can anyone convince me the GH2 is smaller and more portable than any other DSLR out there? |
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I personally think it would be a pain to carry on a hike...even with a compact lens it's still not as easy to carry as a small camcorder and you certainly start annoying me after a few miles!! You seriously would want something that you can "holster" and then take out when you need it. The traditional SLR shape also makes it a bit difficult to find a spot for...In fact a cam like the Panasonic TM900 would probably fit a lot neater in a backpack as it has a more streamlined body and integral lens with no awkward protrusions like a still camera seems to have. You could actually make a pouch on your belt for a small camcorder and it wouldn't hamper walking whereas the "T" shape of a still/video cam wouldn't sit as well.
I still like the idea of a Hero and the realism some reality footage while you walk would give you!! In fact using the GoPro head mount would also give some nice footage !! Chris |
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All good points.
No, I haven't actually handled a GH2. I've only seen it in video presentations. When hiking all day, all things dangling around one's neck or off a hip become very annoying, as you pointed out. I actually have envisioned and experimented with a wrist-mount of sorts (actually a double-layered sweat band with a slit cut into it, into which I can slide the Powershot, thus having it literally "on hand" all day and ready at a moment's notice). It's still a bit clunky because that's a half pound attached to a wrist...imagine wearing a 1/2 pound watch! What my hiking videos need are more spontaneous shots, I've determined. How many times does something happen in front of you (an animal presents itself, you happen upon someone on the trail) but the camera is buried in the pack? But it's juggling two competing needs...the need to shoot sudden moments and the need to shoot pretty scenic shots. All the while, keeping everything light, light, light. (Carrying an extra HD doesn't exactly fit into that scheme.) |
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Hi Lynne
I think we are looking for the same camera; an ultralight, backpacking micro camera but I don't think the gopro is it. I just wish that a young Jonathan Ive (Apple) like designer would have the courage to think differently and produce the perfect expedition camera as it seems like every week some new pov camera is launched onto an already over saturated market. I guess my wish list would include; XLR sockets for external mics with very quiet preamps, APSC sized sensor with adequate heatsink, waterproof, shockproof but still able to use interchangeable fast prime lenses, full manual controls, follow focus, optical viewfinder and cable plug in screen with hood, integral, ultralight folding fig rig/shoulder brace, steadicam and slider (maybe using telescopic walking pole(s) somehow, can be chest, head or helmet mounted, should be discrete enough that it could never be mistaken for a gun/rocket launcher in wilder countries and should be cheap enough so that it is available to all and if it does get crunched by a police baton or falling boulder you can just buy another one without squeeling. Is this really too much to ask? Seems to me the technology is all here it just needs to be integrated appropriately and there is a massive market out here. The big camera companies seem to be producing the same old stuff for a segmented market that no longer exists while their profits are being squeezed between crappy camera phones and a shrinking dslr market. Time for a revolutionary camera for revolutionary times. Rant Over... The gear I'm gathering together now for my next trip with a no/low budget is a gopro (roughly 200g), Sony Nex 5N body (287g), fastish Nikon 50mm manual lens with adapter (200g'ish), Olympus LS-5 (165g) (or Sony PCM-M10 (187g)) sd recorder (both have very low noise preamps), home made binaural EM172 mics and a Rode NTG-2 (180g), home made blimp and walking pole boom attachment (the best sound is always just out of reach). I guess with cables, filters, batteries and pelicase this is heading over your 2lb limit and every ounce counts. What do you think? I understand the desire to use the one gopro but by combining the gopro pov aesthetic cut with the more intimate cinematic Sony Nex its possible to tell the story and get the emotion across with both cameras giving more variety, texture and rhythm for the video. Regards Adrian ( first post/rant) |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Lynne, have you looked at the Steadicam Smoothie? $125 for a real steadicam, can be modded to carry more weight via the Cheesycam mod, I've used one with the Hero2 and a Nex5n and its great.
A little late to this discussion, but the 5n is far superior for standard - non sports stuff that GoPro's usually shoot. You get more framerates and a normal FOV, and you don't get all the distortion that the GoPro lens introduces. The kit lens is stabilized and if you thread a small handle into the tripod socket you can get good handheld footage, carry a small monopod and its gets even better. Carry the Smoothie and you can fly. I use the 5n with a Zoom H1 on top with a cold shoe adapter and its nice. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
I'm jotting these models down on paper with a note to check them out! Thanks.
Hadn't heard of a "cheesycam" mod for the smoothie...I just figured it was capable of handling slightly heavier cameras by making some changes on the built-in balances but I must be wrong. Had noted that the Sony M-10 recorder was reputed to have fairly quiet preamps but wasn't aware the Olympus LS-5 was in the same class. The Sony NEX 5n I'll have to check out again. I recently heard about their RX100 pocket camera as being the "best compact camera ever"...altho' nobody seemed to comment much about the video (and when they did, it ranged from average to just above average in quality). No doubt, there's a need for a high quality miniature video camera that has a nice ergonomic design (making it easy, even desirable to carry) and offers some manual controls and good, no, great audio. It probably has long existed in espionage work but will be many years before it trickles down to consumers, if ever. People want quality packed into a tiny package. ipods and iphones prove that point. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Taking this thought further....
It really does boil down to ergonomics! The current-style camcorder (ie, rounded, hand-held) was derived from the shoulder-mounted cameras. But is holding a round camera in one's hand really a useful way to shoot? Wearable camcorders seems to be useful for many shooters nowadays. It seems to me the flatter and thinner it is, the more mounting options exist. When all is said and done, all we're asking for are small, flat (ie, pocketable) cameras with high quality optics and audio, that's all. No manufacturer has yet responded or has perceived a niche. GoPro's pro tune update is a step in the right direction... |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Unless something else surfaces in the next few months, I believe it's going to be the Sony RX100.
Its ergonomics meet my criteria. (Meaning it can be "worn" in a sense, or at least worn flat on one's chest so it's read to shoot in a moment's notice. It's not dangling downward or rolling around as a round camera would do.) Its image quality is apparently fairly decent. It has manual controls and focus assist. Unfortunately the mics are pointed upward (huh?) and there's no ext. mic jack. Thus I have no choice but to add the Sony M-10 hand-held recorder to the mix. Now we're up to one pound in weight (8+6 oz.). I'll supplement that package with a Hero 2 and (hopefully) the pro tune update so that the data streams match more closely. Now I'm up to about one and a half pounds. I have a lightweight tripod-- that brings me up to 2 pounds. Add the extra batteries, charger, SD cards and I'm well over my limit. If I wanted to go up to 3 pounds (believe me, when you're puffing up a steep slope and it's 90 degrees out and your pack is bursting from all the water and food and gear stowed away, you start to curse the extra video gear as the one thing that's not vital to survival), I'd add the steadycam "smoothie" for a visual treat for viewers. But that's (I think) another whole pound and a half. Sigh...oh well. Meanwhile, it remains to be seen if any manufacturer (private, hopefully) will see the potential for a high end pocket, wearable video (not still) camera. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
How about the Sony GW77? Water/Weatherproof and pretty good sound and image (for the size). $700
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Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
I had never heard of that. Looking...
Hmmm....too bad the lens is 30mm. Its ergonomics isn't the best (for my purposes, that is). Requires being hand-held just so or tripod-mounted. Wouldn't adapt easily to being "worn" on sleeve or chest (as I envision). But its being waterproof and its high quality image is seductive. It's a "niche" camera at the far end of the spectrum. Who knows? Maybe the new GH3 will be so slimmed down it will become a contender... |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Hi Lynne,
I got the RX100, its very good. Full manual control possible. F1.8 lens is very good for low light. Beat my NEX7 with kit lens easy, coz kit lens is so dark. Downside it is not waterproof like my Olympus TG-1 (video quality quite to GoPro HD2, but I like GP better ). By the way I am a GoPro nut case ha ha ha. The photo quality of RX100 is awesome too, for something this baby size, I love this RX100 very much. Sony GW77 can't do manual controls the way RX100 can. If you use tripod and very low light, RX100 will assist you a great deal for those, "man holding 1 candle scene". Lens equivalent to 28-100mm is not bad. You get video + photo capability, it could be the camera for your project. If you have the budget, the dive housing is available now but US$950 -1,200 from RecSea and Nauticam. These are not toy UW housing, these are battlewagon grade 100% aluminum professional unit, especially the Nauticam ( US$950 ), if you ever need any serious underwater shots. Or perhaps those generic waterproof bags maybe suitable if simple submersion is what you need. GoPro Protune update will come by end of year for sure, be patient. Me waiting for it too. Have fun researching and good luck for your project. . |
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I think I'll pass on those expensive waterproof covers!
Question for Sony RX100 owners...given that I'm trying to assemble a "kit" that's under 2 pounds total (at this point it's the Sony AS15 Action Cam at 90 grams and the RX100 at 8.5 ounces), can a nice "steadycam" effect be achieved simply by holding the camera with maybe a GorillaPod attached to the bottom? Does the camera's "steadyshot" circuitry smooth out the bumps and weaves? Or is there nothing that compares to the Steadycam Smoothee? (At 1.75 pounds it's hard to justify such a device.) |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
You really should check out the GW77. It is superior in all ways but one (manual control of shutter and aperture) to the RX100. Having a big sensor packed with pixels is not really useful for run and gun video (the GW77 also has an f1.8 lens, but it stays large even in telephoto, unlike the RX100).
To name a few other very importnat advantages of the GW77 over the RX100: 1. Higher resolution video and no moire - the RX100 has moire and relatively poor resolution compared with today's camcorders. The GW77 video is also better than that of the NEX-5N (which I own), to give you a benchmark. 2. Better audio - there is a GW77 setting for audio that defeats agc; it is only agc on the Rx100. 3. The 4:3 LCD on the RX100 makes the effective 16:9 screen in video mode much smaller than the 16:9 lcd of the GW77, which is articulating. The RX100 LCD is rigid. 4. The GW77 has an optical variable-speed 10X zoom that is QUIET. The RX100 zoom is one speed and is clunky and NOISY. And it is 4X, with an undefeatable awful digital zoom. Need I go on? And the GW77 is waterproof, dustproof and shockproof and equally pocketable. It does have manual focus and exposure control and manual wb and, unlike the RX100, touch focus, which is really useful. Here is one video from it (not possible to take with an RX100): |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Another interesting suggestion! Thanks for the heads-up.
Question...in very quiet room, does the mic pick up the sound of the AF working hard? (The only way around that on the Powershot S100 I tried out was to set the lens manually, just guessing for run and gun situations.) Is there much difference to the eye between 28 and 24 mb/s? Easy to mount on a tripod? Does video take a hit when using the steadycam (if it has it)? |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
Question...in very quiet room, does the mic pick up the sound of the AF working hard? (The only way around that on the Powershot S100 I tried out was to set the lens manually, just guessing for run and gun situations.)"
Zero sound from the mechanics. That's the key difference between a real camcorder and a camera with video capability. No sound from zoom or focus - zero. Here is a GW77 video demonstrating focus pull (touch focus) and tracking, with sound - the focus is shifting during the clip, and there is no mechanical sound at all: Sony HDR GW77V Test Video: Focus Tracking and Focus Shift Tests - YouTube (select 1080p) "Is there much difference to the eye between 28 and 24 mb/s?" The 28Mbps setiing is progressive (60p); the 24Mbps is for interlaced (60i). Progressive is better, and I see no compression artifacts. "Easy to mount on a tripod?" Yes; standard tripod screw hole on the bottom. "Does video take a hit when using the steadycam (if it has it)? " It has optical stabilization, with active mode. The posted (Stockholm) video was taken all handheld with stabilization on. You can see what a good job the stabilization did; and you can see how sharp the video is - sharper than all DSLRs and all POV's, by a longshot. |
Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
I'm glad you brought it to my attention again.
Another question...is it your opinion the audio gathered with this camera (with AGC off) is good enough to be useful for recording "natural" sound? (In other words, foregoing an M-10 handheld recorder and just using this to record audio? I am sort of bummed they put the mic ports at the top rather than the front. I don't understand the reason why that seems to be a trend. They must think all filmmakers love to talk to themselves while shooting. Do the mics seem to pick up what's in front well or do you notice a sort of "sky bounce" (off-mic) quality? I also notice that the amazon reviews are pretty brutal, especially regarding bugs in the software and battery life. How do you know when the manual exposure is correct? Zebra? Histogram? Also, does the fact the glass covering the lens can't be protected cause you concern? How can it be protected from scratches then? |
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The audio with agc off is excellent. Here is a sample of audio from one afternoon's video takes - sound from a distant boat bell, to large engines (including an airplane engine starting close up), to an outdoor a cappella chorus, to a solo singer outdoors, to a soft harmonica sound. The full dynamic range of these sounds is captured. Best audio I have heard from a camcorder:
Sony HDR-GW77 Test Video: Testing the Sound Performance - YouTube The Amazon review is silly. There are no software bugs. And the lens is protected by a glass shield that is scratchproof (just like the glass on smartphones). And note that crazy reviewer praises the quality of the video (I have had direct communications with that guy and he is indeed odd). On exposure (which can be set manually), you use the accurate LCD - there are no other aids. |
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Well, you've made a good case. Now that camera's at the top of my list and the RX100 has been bumped. Hopefully this will pair well with Sony's Action Cam...
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Re: Attention serious documentary filmmakers!
I had made exactly the same comparison with the Rx100, and have been very happy with my choice. I am also considering the pairing with the Sony POV.
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The GW77 and the Sony Action Cam use the same batteries - a good pairing indeed.
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