Sounds about right, I am seeing various aliasing issues in all the clips:

That was probably me - and I stand by that comment. From what I can tell so far from the footage we have seen - the PQ is certainly below that of, for instance, a FX1 or HV30 with a lens adaptor (I agree with your point that it is only really relevant to compare 'apples to apples') - But as far as I can see we still have not had sufficient footage, shot by someone who knows the camera well and in ideal circumstances.

I am genuinely perplexed that people here cannot see the shimmering poor aliasing on the head of the penguin (I think it is a baby penguin) on the original camera file over on dpreview - or the poor aliasing on the pebbles in the upper right hand side of the duck shot - or they cannot see the poor detail/facet/median type look to the clips ?

Perhaps there are in camera settings yet to be gone through, but so far as I can see the quality is without a doubt lesser than any of the recent HDV offerings from Canon or Sony (taking your lens adaptor proviso into account).

I haven't got any good footage on hand to make a decent comparison, but here I am trying to show the 'median filter' effect I can see in the footage, I realise it would be a lot better to find similar footage.

Three images, all 1:1 pixel size from RAW (ungraded) files - saved as maximum quality JPEG files (although ultimately lossy - the high JPEG setting is pretty much identical to the original source files and any degradation from the original is equally applicable to both cameras).

Left: what I had to do to the HV30 original to get it to match the D90 - Centre: original 1:1 pixel D90 crop - Right: original HV30 1:1 pixel crop
(I might have pushed the 'look' a little too far, but I hope you get the idea).

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9694/13777893tr3.jpg

Same deal - with another HV30 source:

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/8100/63749834op4.jpg

And again, but blow up 200% (nearest neighbor/no interpolation/2x2 pixel matrix)

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3780/16826436eo3.jpg

SOURCE FILES:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1903/comper3.jpg



Me too ! And I am hoping once on of you guys has picked up one of these you can show us some better footage.

These clips will playback flawlessly on the PS3 and if any of you don’t have one, it’s best to find someone that does to see if you’ll find the same artifacts.

Hi

This is my first post on DVinfo, though I've been a very long time addict/lurker. This topic has encouraged me to add a comment.

I shoot both stills and video in the great outdoors, like I'm sure many other potential users of this camera do. The D90 could answer a lot of prayers for people in this category, niche as it might be. There have been many times when, to save on weight in my backpack ( and also killing my knees ), I've made a conscious choice to only shoot stills on a given day. While this a great way to focus on the one discipline there have been some of these days where I just wished I'd carried enough kit to film a few shots and have a little creative control. With this in mind, i'm really looking forward to see how this idea develops.

I also noticed the exposure flicker in some of the online footage, something I have seen in some time lapse footage. Now I'm not a Nikon DSLR user ( I use Olympus E-Series ) so please go easy on me on this, but I have seen this article on flicker in the Nikon D200 when shooting time lapse.
A and N Photography: Eliminating flicker from time lapse intervalometer shooting

Is it possible that something similar is happening in these clips? I'm not sure how the exposure is controlled separately from the lens to camera body, i'm not a Nikon shooter, ( but soon might be ) so I'm just curious.

Adrian

We can see the shimmering. Is this much worse than what is seen in HDV? We'll have to examine the settings. I bet this will look better when the default sharpening is reduced. Though, your point about the lack of filtering on downsampling is important. Perhaps future Nikon's will do this.

I'm dreaming for a D3 "Movie Mode" firmware upgrade, but I just know Nikon will offer this in the D3X/D300s/D700s whatever.

Yes, without a doubt, the clips (and they are numerous now) directly from the D90 suffer from either aliasing problems ('shimmering') or a lack of detail/clarity (very much like an image run through Photoshop's median or 'dust and scratches filter').

I agree with you that the in camera settings may need to be checked, but considering Nikon's own ad for the D90 (shot on a D90) suffers from the same issues my hope is waning somewhat.

Large file / slow server - but original MJPEG straight from the camera:

http://photo-cafe.jp/scoop/archives/...d90_movie.html

Speaking of firmware upgrades, what's Nikon's history here? From what I've seen, exposures haven't been consistent on the D90 videos. That's probably not a sensor issue. But if it can be fixed in firmware, what is the likelihood that Nikon will actually fix it?

Nikon has been ok with firmware upgrades by offering them a few months after a product has launched. We're not sure of the causes of the D90 "auto-iris" exposure, but we may just be seeing auto-ISO or the Aperture or Shutter Speed priority modes. Nikon should definitely fix the software to allow us a full manual mode, better yet, exposure compensation based on the f-stop. Camcorders have yet to offer the latter.

Nikon has offered very few feature upgrades in Firmware releases, although the D2H was upgraded with the improved focus algorithms offered in the D2Hs. I doubt Nikon will offer movies in existing D3/D300/D700 cameras unless such would help sell more VR lenses. I'd really like to have my D3 be a 35mm video camera.

What about Manual mode?
 

If Nikon's Movie mode allows it, wouldn't shooting in full Manual avoid such exposure variations?

That's good to hear. The exposure hunting seems to be a flaw, rather than something in search of a new feature.

I don't think it was intended to be a flaw but rather a mimic of the auto-IRIS automatic exposure feature common in camcorders.

Is so, this is an awful implementation !

Looking at the dpreview's clips all I can say is without exposure lock or manual exposure control, the camera's video would be useless for any serious applications. Besides, the clips also showed aliasing and something I would call "jumping framing" effect in the penguine clips which I suspect was caused by the lens' vibration reduction system trying to compensate for the movement or framing of the shot.

Wacharapong

Theres seems to be a few still unanswer questions on this camera. Namely:

1) IS there indeed a 5 min max time? If so, why?
2) does the camera allow full manual control when shooting video?
3) Can the live view be captured oner HDMI without overlay?

Can someone please please explain why Nikon doesnt have a representative posting on this (and all other ) forums??

If it was my company, and I was promoting a product as exciting as this, I would want not only to hear the points raised here, but also be able to respond and correct missinfomation.

These questions could be answered with one post from a nikon tech, and my guess is would mean a boost in sales.

So why hasnt this happened??

Yes, there is a 5 min limit, we don't know why for certain, either chip heating issues or tax reasons (the theory goes like this: over 5 min = video camera / under 5 mins = stills camera - video pays more tax)

I wish Nikon was more willing to talk about the features as well but a lot of other companies including Canon, Sony and Panasonic do the same thing sometimes so it’s very common.

No, no, no. As I mentioned before, this is complete nonsense. There are plenty of other digital still cameras that have video modes which are not limited to five minutes, and those cameras are certainly not "taxed as camcorders."

A fellow went to a nikon d90 event in Japan last week just to test if it had manual control in movie mode. The answer is YES, as long as the AE-L button is held. What does this mean? Well it means you can lock exposure, but you may have to rig up something to hold the button down.

Also, The person who went to the event asked about the 5-minute recording time and if it was because of sensor over-heat.
The response was that the 5-minute recording time is not because of the risk of sensor overheating problems at all, it is by design (for some reason?) There isn't any lag time if you record for 5-minutes, you can record for 5-minutes after that no problems.

The lower resolution movie modes have a 20 minute limit according to the D90 preview on dpreview.com

After talking about it on other fora, I'm ready to believe it has to do with a file size limit. if only Nikon would open a new file when it reaches this limit ... or better yet, allow a programmable file split size. I'm sure we don't want to drag 2 GByte files around.

"5min shooting limitation is not due to chip set overheat nor live view screen overheat. It is programmed that way. This, I don't understand why but I did try shooting pretty long time (not 5min) then stop and shoot again. It did work and did not seem to present any problem at all."

Looks like he didn't quite get to five mins. Not to quibble, because it doesn’t settle whether or not Nikon may have imposed a runtime limit on D-Movie mode.

So I checked the D90 specs at Nikon's site (webpage, sell-sheet PDF & multipage brochure PDF) and none of them mention a 5-minute runtime limit.

Now, as a filmmaker, I'm confident I'll shoot no 5-minute takes with this or most cameras. But Nikon's glossy brochure devotes some space (grids, specs) talking about storage-card capacity. It's possible that any runtime limit on D-Movie mode may have been an arbitrary cutoff, chosen in the belief that the D90 will sell mostly to stills shooters. I.e., "who'll need more than 5 minutes for a video clip?"

Well, you & I may (or may not), but we come from the world of motion & are used to unlimited runtimes. If such a limit exists in the D90, filmmakers' enthusiasm for the D90 could prompt Nikon to update firmware or hardware to extend any runtime limit.

I was thinking that might be the reason as well knowing that the clips I saw were around 40Mbps each. Perhaps Nikon will increase the limit if enough people say they want it. I can imagine people wanting to use this as a B camera for documentaries since it’s alleged that the exposure can be locked by rigging it.

The technology probably wasn’t ready for the D700 but imagine Nikon putting 720p in the D3X but with a higher bit rate of around 50 to 60Mbps instead of 40Mbps.

Yeah, that would be great. I'd be comforted knowing they provided better downsampling to the 1280x720 image or offered 1920x1080 movies, as well as outputting an uncompressed stream over HDMI with no display information overlays. I haven't tested simultaneous HDMI and component output, but this would be very useful for monitoring while recording. Component would drive a portable monitor.

As for the aperture, I wonder if locking the aperture ring on lenses with such would work. Could the flickering come from inaccurate aperture settings on a group of frames?

The 5 minute limitation is real from several 1stg hand reports, and is likely due to file size limitations. It's probably about 1gb at this length. It's quite possible that the camera has to hold these frames in internal memory before writing them out to the mpg file. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a little processing time before the camera is ready to shoot again.
In any case, "why" doesn't matter too much at this stage. In fact, I'd be looking at mostly special effect shots in the under 30 sec range, so this limit feels generous to me.

The D90 has lens compatibility like D70, D80 etc, less than D200/300 but better than D40.
This means older manual focus lenses need to be shot in manual, and will probably be rejected in movie mode on this camera (darn - I've got a few fun ones... 500 mirror, lensbaby, micro). This would also mean the intervalometer flicker reduction workaround on d200/300(using aperture ring instead of electronic) is unlikely to be available on this camera. There is an AE filter to fix this in post, but of course we'd rather not have to go there.
The stepped exposure changes are ugly, but the exposure lock button workaround seems like it will cover most needs. This already probably isn't an issue on many setups anyway.

No way you consider this a replacement for a video camera, but it will provide some unique types of footage that will have some awesome applications for b-roll etc. With bleeding edge technology especially, it pays to work to the products strengths and character.

I'm excited, and plan to do jump before the end of year. My D70 intervalometer through a laptop workflow has got real old, and I was nearly about to commit to the d300. I know I'll find a way to get some exciting video clips with this unit, and that is a real bonus.

Sean, what do you mean by "rejected"? If you're right, why might that happen with manual lenses?

From Nikon's own mouth:

Exposure is lockable, button needs to be held down by default, but menu options allow you to simply press the AE button once to lock the exposure.

Nikon would show a great deal of wisdom at this point to have someone like Adam Wilt do a handson . I believe we'll see alot more info coming out of photokina.

Not only Photokina, but also PhotoPlus Expo coming up Oct. 23-25 in NYC.

First post of this thread has been updated with a link to the official Nikon D90 product brochure.

The offer I made earlier in this thread (back around post #110 to host footage) is open to all.

I have a freind from a big uk slr retailer who i gave a list of questions to yesterday as he was off to a uk nikon event...he held the d90!..he forgot to ask questions..pardon me while i go do something really nasty to him.

Nice one lee on confirmation of exposure lock...thats a very easy workaround...I was already thinking hmmm "rubber band device" etc(lol).

Yes it is a DSLR, but shoot more than 5 minutes then it will be classed as a video camcorder. You are correct in saying other cameras have longer recording times, but not at the quality offered by Nikon. I will be getting the camera next week and will post some samples.

BTW this information was given by Nikon at the press launch - I record all press events and can play you the audio if you need confirmation.

well if there's any kernal of truth to the tax thing , then I offer Nikon some free advice - pay the extra tax and pass on the cost to the consumer , and then give us "cardcapacity" recording lengths , and everyone in the world who would buy a d90 would be tickled pink with the deal. my$1worth.k

Here is the voice of Nikon's Marketting Director in the UK

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/aa/D90.mp3

When is it to be released in the US?

I have posted a link to Nikon's press launch brief, and they confirm what has been said regarding Tax. Sorry about the poor quality of audio, but the recorder was not placed in an ideal spot and the sound is only intended for my reference.

Best wishes, and I shall close my postings on this.

Chris I believe Vincent does have his own site , and a pretty decent photo related review site at that.

Digital Photography at photo-i

Vincent , correct me if I'm incorrectly identifying you , please.

In a world that has no truths , misinformation is all that exists . Maybe there's room to wait and see . This is the predicament that Nikon has thrust upon potential users of the d90 video mode. Remember this is their first time to out a video camera . They've go lots of experience outing still images devices but it's been since the r10 days of super 8 since they had to technically describe a moving image device , and it was alot more simple. And sometimes even within the same organization , truthful information can be slow forthcoming.

www.kurthbousman.com

I appreciate the audio clip, Vincent, and the quality certainly doesn't impede the content. Of course I wasn't there, but just from listening to the clip and having attended plenty of similar press events myself, I find the context of the Nikon spokesman's reference to "tax" at 00:37 to 00:39 or so to be firmly tongue-in-cheek and not at all a serious answer. And I don't think anyone there took him seriously, either, judging from the laughter in the room when he said that. In my experience with press events, such tongue-in-cheek response from marketing folk tend to occur spontaneously as a method of evading a question. Perhaps he didn't know outright the technical reason for the clip length limit, or perhaps he knew but didn't want to say.

At any rate, as has been pointed out numerous times: there are dozens upon dozens of still cameras that shoot video well beyond five minutes. As previously mentioned, the D90 itself also has a 20-minute video mode. Show me documentation regarding this so-called "camcorder tax" status, and show me documentation that delineates the "quality" of a still camera's video mode as having an effect on tax. Keep in mind that there are several consumer HD camcorders currently selling at or below the D90's price point.

I couldn't make out most of the audio, but I thought I heard the Mktg Director say, toward the end, that the D90 can shoot for 5 minutes, then turn around and shoot for another 5 mins. Did I mishear …? Trying to divine whether or not there's any need to wait between takes, or if the cam's good to go immediately.

The best explanation for the clip length limit I've heard yet is a file size limitation. That would lead me to believe that you could turn around and record another clip almost immediately. I guess we'll all find out soon enough...

I think you're right. I have to channel my impatience into some work.

yeh , file size would be a far more logical reason. The sensor overheating theme seems to be contradicted by the immediate ability to begin filming after the 5 min limit . For me it's a nonissue anyway as I would probably need to overglock it about 1% of the time. Far more important themes exist raised by the exposure fluctuations ,imho.k

Agreed, Kurth—though downtime between takes is a negative, D90s are cheap enough to shoot with multiple bodies.

What's overglocking? Is it as dangerous as it sounds (can a speedloader talk to HDMI?), or do you mean "overclocking"?

If the latter, what would you overclock? The D90's CMOS sensor?

If so, how & why?

Today's computers find such file sizes unwieldy. I'd prefer the camera to break up clips into smaller sizes, preferably a user programmable size. 1GB is still quite large. I think that Nikon is just getting started in this area, but let's ask for usable features.

The MJPEG format is not universally playable (at least in my experience with Canon P&S cameras), so I'm hoping that they provide some video compression tools in their bundled software.