Videoguys Top 10 of 2003
 

Just posted my Top 10 new products of 2003 article

http://www.videoguys.com/2003best.htm

I think you'll find it interesting reading. At the end of the article I do a little crystal balling into some of the future technologies on the horizon.

Gary

Wha---!? Vegas is only #10?

Yeah, when you take into account the innovative features Vegas provided for the price they did, and the fact that it was so well received that even Adobe got scared and hastened their video collections time of general availability, I'd have to say Vegas should be much higher than at least that fancy (and awkward) keyboard.

But hey, I could always make my own top 10... :)

Gary is a retailer--and thus must be very aware of those who supply him product--leave it at that.

Vegas is a top 10 product no doubt about it. But Vegas +DVD at $499.95 would have finished higher in the rankings. At $699.95 it's still a top 10, but no longer a Top 5.

As I've posted here and in numerous other forums. I'm very hopeful that Sony's marketing will overcome the negative impact of the higher price. But only time will tell.

Gary
Videoguys.com

LE #2?

I am growing somewhat weary of these steroid-charged positive reviews of Liquid Edition. I have been training up on LE for six months now, have hundreds of hours in on the software and in the LE forums.

It's an unbelieveably powerful tool, well worth the money. It also has some very serious problems that none of these industry magazines / resellers are noting. Buyer beware.

In particular:

1) the hardware platform choice for LE is extremely important. It will not - repeat not - install and run well on just any system.

2) the DVD output of LE is riddeled with problems. Trot on over to the LE output forums and read the posts. Pinnacle claims these are a few disgruntled individuals. Look at the profiles & the numbers and your soon see otherwise. Count hw many users have abandoned the DVD authoring module alltogether in favor of Nero, Ulead, etc. Calculate the rato of Pinnacle replies to total posts.

Sobering stuff.

I will say again: LE is powerful & i will continue with it. But there is a serious gap between the marketing hype and the reality.

My challenge to the industry reviewers is this: bring some objectivity and constructive criticism into your product evaluations. This will benefit all of us. In the long run, it will benefit the producers by holding them accountable and forcing them to attend to their products and their existing customers instead of focusing eternally on the next hot program.

In the shadows of all the industry hype, the little guys are going unnoticed. Check out Media Chance, where they have developed a front end plug in that merges TMPG with DVD authoring ..... :-) ahhh, the capitalist fray ......

So how good is that keyboard really? Looks a bit "flimsy". Also
I'm a bit angry that they don't have a color coded keyboard for
Vegas. I'd say Vegas as at least as "professional" as Premiere is
(although not as much used, true, but then again which industry
person is using Premiere?)

Liquid Edition -

We are aware that there are issues with the Pro hardware. I do point this out in my RT5 NLE Comparison article. We are not running into issues with the software running on different machines. We do say constantly that any of these new NLEs require a fast ssytem w/ plenty of RAM.

The DVD Authoring with Editrion is working great for us. We are not trying to make complex multiple nested menu productions. For that you do need to go woth a full fledged authoring app. But for making a simple DVD with a couple of menus complete with motion backgrounds and buttons, Edition gets the job done.

EZ Keyboard Pro - the gang at bella has too face the realities of demand and marketsize vs initial start-up costs. When they go to color coded keys, they add tremendously to their initial costs. So far their market analysis does not support this investment for Vegas or Edition. A new keyboard player - WorldTech is geared towards smaller runs. They now offer Specailist keyboards for Vegas, Edition, Edius, MS Pro as well as Premeire Pro and Avid Xpress. http://www.videoguys.com/worldtech.html

Videoguys articles - Guys keep in mind that ours is a commercial website. Make no mistake about it - my goal is to get you to buy stuff (hopefully from us ;-) Use our reviews as just a portion of your research. Read Charlie Whites articles on DMN, check out magazines like Videomaker, DV and AV Video. And most importantly - use sites like dvinfo to get real worls feedback from actual users.

One last note about our reviews. While my reviews tend to be rosy, we stand behind everythting we sell with free tech support and a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. So I have real world consequences if my reviews don't hold up.

Gaary
Videoguys.com

Those keyboard are looking nice. Don't have the jog in there,
which peeked my interest in the other. BUT, I'm currently thinking
about whether it would be more handy to have a seperate jog
device to use with my right hand that isn't integrated in the
keyboard... Choices choices.

Keyboard is nice and very good I might add. For a Mac this has got to be the best one ever made as I am typing on it now I would like to say that it's good key response. Also the jog wheel does work in FCP, QuickTime, and Premiere and as well in other smaller apps. As to working in FCP the setup is easy to learn as it is akin to Avid. There are short cuts up on top as to launch apps or even macros.

Go Bella

Pinnacle liquid Edition #2.......give me a break.

Tee hee - I'm with you there Glenn. Buying market, leading to that sort of rating is exactly why Pinnacle is spending all those marketing dollars (as opposed to spending them on R&D where they belong).

Julian

<<<-- Originally posted by Glen Elliott : Pinnacle liquid Edition #2.......give me a break. -->>>

Glenn and Julian have you ACTUALLY used Pinnacle liquid Edition?

Also what editing system do you think should be in 2nd place.

I am serious in asking this as I am just about to pull the trigger and invest in some NLE software.

Michael, usually the best approach to deciding which NLE to buy is to figure out what your needs are, and then getting the product that is best for your needs. Three big factors are your computer, your budget, and the kinds of editing you want to do. Each NLE has its own strength and weakness so there is no best one. Vegas for example is very stable, very powerful, has the BEST audio capabilities of any NLE, and is kinda cheap (relatively speaking). Edition on the other hand gives you the most real-time and has background rendering, while Vegas is slow at rendering.

re: Pinnacle LE
 

I just came from spending a day at the New York Showbiz Expo (which replaced last year's DV Expo) and Pinnacle was there big time. I certainly have to agree with Julian's comment:

<<...why Pinnacle is spending all those marketing dollars (as opposed to spending them on R&D where they belong).>>

Pinnacle hired a dozen or so very attractive "eye-candy" girls in matching Pinnacle outfits to walk around handing out brochures, gathering people for the demos etc. The were in the lobby, at the registration area and near the elevators on every floor the show was on - waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting customer. The sad thing is ...NOT ONE OF THE 6 OR SO I SPOKE WITH HAD THE FOGGIEST NOTION WHAT THE PRODUCT IS, DOES OR IS SUPPOSED TO DO!) (End of rant - Sorry)

I'm a Pinnacle user - We have Liquid Silver (the big $ package) at the office and I use LE at home. When it works properly, it is a great product. I happen to be having problems with LE right now and aside from the rep doing the demos and a couple of vendors who were very busy selling - there was no one who could answer my questions. Of course, the rep and the vendors don't want to spend time talking to someone about a problem when a potential customer is standing nearby because 1) I have already bought - they are not likely to sell me another copy 2) Time with me is time away from the paying customer and 3) If I'm describing a serious problem, the potential customer listening in might bolt out the door and go to another product.

Pinnacle's support is horrible - long waits on the phone and very poor on-line. Maybe a few $$ could be diverted from matching outfits and overstaffing shows with pretty girls (At one point, I was the only audience member for the demo, but 4 of the girls were standing around the booth)

They indeed are very focused on marketing, but short on other aspects of the business.

Thank you both for your quick and detailed replys.


Ok answers to the questions:

Three big factors are

your computer: Am buying a new computer just for editing. Looking at Pentium 4 3.0 MHz with 800 MHz Front Side BUS with 1.5 Gig RAM kingston.

2 HD one samll for Windows XP professional. The other probably 250 GB Western Digital

Graphics card 128MB probably ATI RADEON 9800 128MB DDR



your budget: For the NLE budget is $1000


and the kinds of editing you want to do: Editing feature length movie off of mini DV panny DVX100 and JVC GY- DV500. The different cameras will NOT be used on the same movie

So as to not hijack this thread, I started this one:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=22502

I have to agree with the comments on Edition. Great software? Sure, for the most part. It gets a bad reputation 'cause it's Pinnacle software, but it's not that bad most of the time. Try it before you judge it.

Number two, however, I'm not so sure about.

The bad rap it gets is not unwarranted, you see. The very fact that it's distributed by Pinnacle means you're relying on them for your upgrades and tech support; God knows how good they are with all that. And in all the reviews I've seen of the Pro version, I've yet to see anyone mention the fact that there are perhaps TWO users out there who have the analog capture function working. And even that's a stretch. See editionplanet.com for more.

I'm getting sick and tired of this company--and, to a lesser extent, software--and I was lucky enough to have recently scratched my LE install CD beyond repair. I can't install the software! Perfect excuse to get something new. :)

nice that dual 64bit machines that can run 8gb of ram didn't make the list... (not apple retailers?)

You could've gotten Xeon machines that can run up to 24GB of RAM before the G5 and AMD64. Maybe no one cares because they don't need that much RAM yet.

I see people criticizing various NLEs but then not offering their ideas of what is better.

Perhaps if you are going to post in this thread to help out us newbies people could post EXACTLY what they have used and what they liked the best.

It does no good to slam a particular NLE when you have only tried an old version or not even tried it at all.

Again, I am suggesting these things because this thread is asking for what is a good NLE and I too am about to purchase one and would like to know what people here have found was good and what they thought was bad BUT only if you have actually used it.

Easy Micheal. I can tell you from experience the slamming is often well deserved, written from experienced users who often know the software better than the tech support at the call center, and because none of these systems are perfect, carefully examining the criticisms may be your best path.

As my earlier post indicated, i have half a year in on LE now, will be continueing with it as it serves my 'style' of editing. Steep learning curve, weak tech support, powerful software.


Register on the different webboards to the different NLE's you are looking at. Get a feel for the weaknesses of each system. Do term searches on your graphics card set up, drivers, etc. in the web board forums to discover other users encountering conflicts.

I've been using severl WD 250 hds for the last four months. Good units. The graphics card is where you should be careful, both with nle cmpatability, & windows updates creating conflicts / replacing drivers. Best to have nothing on the system but xp and the minimum software u need - no games, no roxio, that's for sure. Careful about what codecs you add onto your media player .... etc.

1.5 m ram is more than enough. Don't know about hdef editing, that's uncharted waters for the most of these nle's.

good luck.

I take your point Michael - here's what I have used, have stopped using and/or still use.

Premiere. OK. Never found a reason to stop using it. Much more stable than Edition. Large and professional user base. Like IBM - nobody ever got fired for buying Premiere. Downside is the workflow is clunky (well, on pre-Pro it is).

Edition. Nuff said. Shame really.

I have not used Vegas.

I soon learned that saving a few £/$ on an NLE is a false saving. The resulting software/system is often limited in its usability (lots of mouse clicks to do simple or repetitive actions, no ability to batch program the system, etc). So I stopped looking there and invested a bit more cash

I needed:
a reliability
b flexibility (not just software, but the NLE video card too)
c openness so can be integrated properly with other software for media management, effects and graphics, etc.

So I took a step up (a couple of years ago now), bought a Digisuite DTV card (very flexible and rock solid), and invested in some more expensive NLE software. My current rave is IMC Incite - $2800 but flexible in exactly the ways I need. Alternatively, for a little less, InSync SpeedRazor.

I don't like Avid because of the cost involved in upgrading once you are on board.

Looking at the market today I would instead buy a MAC, a decklink card and FCP4.

Just my 2p-worth,

Julian

GREAT information and so quick.

I am taking your advice and doing some more research.


Thank you all.

what operating system can effectively use 24gb of ram? Linux running Massive? I can't afford an IT department... if there is a solution where I can use a xeon with that much ram I'd be all ears.

Ya otta try to deal with Pinnacle directly. I had to take their product and my equipment in to Pinnacle in Mountain View and PROVE to them that their product did not work.

While the Consumer Division VP agreed with me, the Directors of Hardware and Software development and the Director of Support would not agree that the product was fundamentally flawed.

Unbelievable how rapidly they obsolete their products.

Am I ever glad I bought Canopus. I've had the hardware for 7 years now and they just keep supporting it. I've had great real time editing since they first introduced it.

When my system had problems, I was invited to take it into them. They found that the on-board SCSI controller on the SuperMicro board was defective and GAVE me a new controller to fix the problem.

Before I found them, the story from Pinnacle, Matrox and FAST was, "Ha! You screwed up! You trusted us! Haw Haw Haw"

"It's YOUR fault, you need to upgrade your hardware drivers/Quicktime installation."

"It's YOUR fault, you need to downgrade your drivers/Quicktime installation."

"It's YOUR fault, you need to run Quicktime in safe mode."

"YOU messed something up, try reinstalling the software."

"YOU caused this problem, reformat and reinstall your OS."

"YOU'RE the one who doesn't have a dedicated video editing system, don't look at us. You don't have an entire computer dedicated to running our software, that's your problem."

As much as tech support staff members like Dennis Radeke (who's no longer with the company) and Rick Popko--the only two individuals I've dealt with directly--WANT to help, and TRY to, their hands are effectively tied. They support the software, they don't write it--as many bug reports as they can submit to the development staff, it's still up to the programmers to fix what they did.


But before I get too far into the Pinnacle-hating tangent, I should note that this DOES, in a way, tie into the original thread, insofar as I think these issues are reason for Liquid Edition to be lower on anyone's list.

I find it to be the best product Pinnacle has ever released, and a damn good one when taken on its own merits, so I think it belongs on there somewhere, but the company's history of dealing with its customers (that bundle deal they had, the "Pinnacle Application Graveyard", for example, consisting of Commotion, Impression, TitleDeko, and some other once-great-but-now-dead app, or the way they still promote Commotion as a compositing program), and the way it continues to handle Edition users' complaints, drags it down much farther.

As much as I love and use Edition, I fear it's only a matter of time before it meets a similar fate.

Gary....

Thank you for your honesty and openness. However, I gotta take issue with you! If you want to provide biased reviews, they should appear in mags with the title "advertisement". They should not appear in public forums such as this. If you insist on posting your advertisements here, I think Chris should make a special category for ADVERTISEMENTS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM SPONSORS. To present your reviews as a public service, IMHO, is misleading and out of my own definition of integrity.