Editing software compared.

Johan Manders · February 13th, 2005, 04:56 PM

Glenn....I really like the color corrections!
The two I liked most are the guy (no fat chicks) and the girl.
These are very good examples of making a movie look great!

I've seen a review about Magic Bullet Suite that works with Vegas. From what I could see was that the collor correction was also great. Dreamy look, Matrix look...this could work for me!

Glenn Chan · February 13th, 2005, 07:22 PM

Both Vegas and Premiere Pro have Magic Bullet versions for them I believe.

Magic Bullet is a very easy tool to use for primary color correction (corrections that affect the whole image). It is great for stylized looks (i.e. Matrix, bleach bypass, etc.). That webpage was for a mockumentary drama-type pilot, so I didn't go for a stylized look.

However it does not do any secondary color correction or masking, and it takes a **long** time to render. You can also get very comparable results in Vegas, although it may take a little more button pushing in certain cases.

If the case of your favorite images:
The over-the-shoulder shot of the girl used a mask on the girl and the wall behind her. You can think of it as a cutoff.

That selectrion then was brightened... so the girl's face gets bright, as well as the wall behind her. It looks like there is a lighting source in the background out of the frame. Because I didn't include the right side of the frame, it's darker there and acts as a frame or acts as like a vignette effect.

Magic Bullet wouldn't really be the appropriate tool for that shot.

The same thing goes for the no fat chicks-tshirt guy shot... the director is going for a 'documentary' look.

Anyways... it seems like I'm digressing here. I'm not really sure what the point of this message was anyways.

Phil Holder · February 13th, 2005, 09:18 PM

I was just looking at Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 that has 5.1 surround sound and colour correction.

Peter Jefferson · February 14th, 2005, 06:19 AM

"What would a DTS encoder cost?"

hehehehe
i was looking at gettin licensed for DTS (I do alot of film and distribution, so Dolby Digital has been a apart fo my studio for a number of years... ) but i wanted to expand so DTS was the next choice..
Funy though.. that it would cost me $2000 AUD for the DTS encoder alone.. Vegas set me back 1200 for the whole Vegas5+DVD... which included the certified Dolby encoder as standard....
Another option was a Nuendo rig, soooo i thought $2000 would be better spent elsewhere..

When it comes down to it, each application does things differently as well as doing different things.. i jsut LOVE the region filters in Edius.. i also like the soft focus, coupled with an oversaturated colour curve from vegas and you get a stunnign shining glossy airbrushed look.. u can literally ditch ur Matrox RTx100 or Storm 2 now..
then I like the way premiere does its colour change.. and auto correct.. pity its rendering is so slow.. and Vegas and Avid (if Avid was 40k, id still think it was a good editor.. )well ive rambled enough about that..

My point is that i have made the investment to buy, learn and use each and every application for its strong points.. whats strong in one system may be weak in another.. and having access to all of them is prolly the smartest thing i have done within my business.. i can literally do ANYTHING with video with minimal fuss without the contrived attitude of "which one is better"..
Theyre all good in different ways.. how u use them.. well.. thats another story ;)

and I agree with the comment on the FX/Z1.

Kevin Shaw · February 14th, 2005, 11:51 AM

<<<... u can literally ditch ur Matrox RTx100 or Storm 2 now...>>>

Although these products are less important now than they were in the past, I still use my DVStorm when I want maximum real-time performance or fast MPEG2 output. So like you said, it's all about using every available tool when it's beneficial to do so, and not worrying about being limited to any particular solution.

Johan Manders · February 14th, 2005, 12:48 PM

Well...too bad I dont have enough money for buying all the packages!

Peter:
I found a Licensed DTS encoder for $499 USD.
I emailed sony if I am able to use the dts stream in dvd architect 2.
You agreed with the comment on the FX/Z1??
To buy or not to buy...that's the question :D

Edward Troxel · February 14th, 2005, 12:56 PM

I emailed sony if I am able to use the dts stream in dvd architect 2.

I believe that answer will be NO.

Pete Wilie · February 14th, 2005, 01:40 PM

For a comparison put together by Pinnacle, see Comparison of Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6 with the other leading NLEs

For a more detailed comparison, see the link to a PDF file on Detailed Software Comparison at the bottom of the page.

There are not many LE6 users on this forum, so you will not see a lot of people recommending it. But LE6 is an outstanding NLE with features and performance not found in many other NLEs. LE6 was just released last fall, so most people have not seen it or used it yet. And yes, it has a few bugs in it (as all SW does). But a LE6 service pack is supposed to be released very soon (Feb/Mar) that will address these bugs.

Someone mentioned that background rendering is not important. This couldn't be further from the truth. In order to view the video from your NLE timeline on a NTSC monitor, it will need to be rendered. LE6 uses both your CPU and your GPU to quickly render while you are working on other things. It does NOT in any way interfere with your work. You will find that you often will want to view the video from your timeline during the course of editing.

Choosing a NLE is a tough job. Take your time, review all the info at the manufacturer's web sites, get as many opinions as reasonable (but remember they are JUST opinions and may contain factual errors), and where possible, download and try out the demo versions of each NLE you are really interested in.

Even though trying out each NLE is a good idea, keep in mind that it takes considerable time to learn how to use each NLE, and they are all different. Some people find some NLEs to be difficult or confusing at first. But then, after they learn the pecularities of that NLE, find it to be very powerful.

Finally, be aware that you can obtain substantial discounts on student/academic versions. For example, LE6 usually sells for $500, but the academic ver is only $170.

Good luck with your search.

Edward Troxel · February 14th, 2005, 02:08 PM

Someone mentioned that background rendering is not important. This couldn't be further from the truth. In order to view the video from your NLE timeline on a NTSC monitor, it will need to be rendered.

Vegas previews to an external monitor via firewire without rendering (or background rendering).

Pete Wilie · February 14th, 2005, 02:20 PM

Edward,

Technically you are correct. But from a practical point of view, any corrections or special effects that you apply to the captured video must be processed in some manner to display on an external monitor. This is, in essence, "rendering" the video for preview purposes. This "preview rendering" may not be as full or complete as the actual rendering done to output your final video to file.

LE6 has a similar capability.

Does Vegas preview all effects without rendering?
Does it output full quality video when previewing?

Best Regards,
Pete

Richard Alvarez · February 14th, 2005, 03:17 PM

I think realtime 'preview' is scalable in different NLE's by virtue of ram, cpu speed and frame rates or field choice.

Pete Wilie · February 14th, 2005, 03:41 PM

LE6 provides 1,000's of 2D and 3D resolution independent SD and HD real-time effects powered by Liquid's SmartRT. This means it has real-time preview of these effects without actual rendering. LE6 is one of the only NLEs to make extensive use of your graphic board's GPU.

For more info see LE6 Features and Specifications.

Edward Troxel · February 14th, 2005, 03:55 PM

Does Vegas preview all effects without rendering?
Yes

Does it output full quality video when previewing?
It can. Depends on settings, CPU speed, effects used, etc...

If you choose Good (Full) or Best (Full) then you will have full quality video when previewing. However, this may come at a sacrifice of framerate.

If you leave it at the default Preview (Auto) then the quality will be slightly diminished but the framerate will be higher.

Naturally, you can always to a RAM Render on any particular section if you MUST see it in full-quality/full-framerate.

Johan Manders · February 14th, 2005, 03:56 PM

Pete....thanks for the input :)

You seem to know how LE6 works.
One little question, how does the 5.1 audio work?
Can it pan the audio with keyframes?
With the dvd making option, will it encode to Dolby Digital?
I want to try the program, but i have to let a cd send to me and this will take some days.

Pete Wilie · February 14th, 2005, 06:31 PM

Johan,

My understanding is that LE6 provides capability to author Dolby Digital 5.1 and encode it on a DVD. I have not personally done this, so I can't really speak from personal experience. You may need to use an external program lik Nero to burn the DVD with Dolby Digital. For more info please see the following:
Detailed Review of LE6 by Peter Wells (DV Doctor) at Hexus.net
Liquid Edition 6.0 Manual

Also, you can post your questions on the Pinnacle Liquid Edition forums and get excellent replys from both Pinnacle and expert LE6 users.

Pete

February 14th, 2005, 12:56 PM	#22
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	I emailed sony if I am able to use the dts stream in dvd architect 2. I believe that answer will be NO. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 14th, 2005, 01:40 PM	#23
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	Detailed Comparison of NLEs For a comparison put together by Pinnacle, see Comparison of Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6 with the other leading NLEs For a more detailed comparison, see the link to a PDF file on Detailed Software Comparison at the bottom of the page. There are not many LE6 users on this forum, so you will not see a lot of people recommending it. But LE6 is an outstanding NLE with features and performance not found in many other NLEs. LE6 was just released last fall, so most people have not seen it or used it yet. And yes, it has a few bugs in it (as all SW does). But a LE6 service pack is supposed to be released very soon (Feb/Mar) that will address these bugs. Someone mentioned that background rendering is not important. This couldn't be further from the truth. In order to view the video from your NLE timeline on a NTSC monitor, it will need to be rendered. LE6 uses both your CPU and your GPU to quickly render while you are working on other things. It does NOT in any way interfere with your work. You will find that you often will want to view the video from your timeline during the course of editing. Choosing a NLE is a tough job. Take your time, review all the info at the manufacturer's web sites, get as many opinions as reasonable (but remember they are JUST opinions and may contain factual errors), and where possible, download and try out the demo versions of each NLE you are really interested in. Even though trying out each NLE is a good idea, keep in mind that it takes considerable time to learn how to use each NLE, and they are all different. Some people find some NLEs to be difficult or confusing at first. But then, after they learn the pecularities of that NLE, find it to be very powerful. Finally, be aware that you can obtain substantial discounts on student/academic versions. For example, LE6 usually sells for $500, but the academic ver is only $170. Good luck with your search.

February 14th, 2005, 02:08 PM	#24
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Someone mentioned that background rendering is not important. This couldn't be further from the truth. In order to view the video from your NLE timeline on a NTSC monitor, it will need to be rendered. Vegas previews to an external monitor via firewire without rendering (or background rendering). __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 14th, 2005, 03:41 PM	#27
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	LE6 Has 1,000s of Real-Time Effects LE6 provides 1,000's of 2D and 3D resolution independent SD and HD real-time effects powered by Liquid's SmartRT. This means it has real-time preview of these effects without actual rendering. LE6 is one of the only NLEs to make extensive use of your graphic board's GPU. For more info see LE6 Features and Specifications.

February 14th, 2005, 03:55 PM	#28
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Does Vegas preview all effects without rendering? Yes Does it output full quality video when previewing? It can. Depends on settings, CPU speed, effects used, etc... If you choose Good (Full) or Best (Full) then you will have full quality video when previewing. However, this may come at a sacrifice of framerate. If you leave it at the default Preview (Auto) then the quality will be slightly diminished but the framerate will be higher. Naturally, you can always to a RAM Render on any particular section if you MUST see it in full-quality/full-framerate. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 13th, 2005, 04:56 PM	#16
Johan Manders Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 50	Glenn....I really like the color corrections! The two I liked most are the guy (no fat chicks) and the girl. These are very good examples of making a movie look great! I've seen a review about Magic Bullet Suite that works with Vegas. From what I could see was that the collor correction was also great. Dreamy look, Matrix look...this could work for me!

February 13th, 2005, 07:22 PM	#17
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Both Vegas and Premiere Pro have Magic Bullet versions for them I believe. Magic Bullet is a very easy tool to use for primary color correction (corrections that affect the whole image). It is great for stylized looks (i.e. Matrix, bleach bypass, etc.). That webpage was for a mockumentary drama-type pilot, so I didn't go for a stylized look. However it does not do any secondary color correction or masking, and it takes a long time to render. You can also get very comparable results in Vegas, although it may take a little more button pushing in certain cases. If the case of your favorite images: The over-the-shoulder shot of the girl used a mask on the girl and the wall behind her. You can think of it as a cutoff. That selectrion then was brightened... so the girl's face gets bright, as well as the wall behind her. It looks like there is a lighting source in the background out of the frame. Because I didn't include the right side of the frame, it's darker there and acts as a frame or acts as like a vignette effect. Magic Bullet wouldn't really be the appropriate tool for that shot. The same thing goes for the no fat chicks-tshirt guy shot... the director is going for a 'documentary' look. Anyways... it seems like I'm digressing here. I'm not really sure what the point of this message was anyways.

February 13th, 2005, 09:18 PM	#18
Phil Holder Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Perth Western Australia Posts: 70	I was just looking at Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 that has 5.1 surround sound and colour correction.

February 14th, 2005, 06:19 AM	#19
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"What would a DTS encoder cost?" hehehehe i was looking at gettin licensed for DTS (I do alot of film and distribution, so Dolby Digital has been a apart fo my studio for a number of years... ) but i wanted to expand so DTS was the next choice.. Funy though.. that it would cost me $2000 AUD for the DTS encoder alone.. Vegas set me back 1200 for the whole Vegas5+DVD... which included the certified Dolby encoder as standard.... Another option was a Nuendo rig, soooo i thought $2000 would be better spent elsewhere.. When it comes down to it, each application does things differently as well as doing different things.. i jsut LOVE the region filters in Edius.. i also like the soft focus, coupled with an oversaturated colour curve from vegas and you get a stunnign shining glossy airbrushed look.. u can literally ditch ur Matrox RTx100 or Storm 2 now.. then I like the way premiere does its colour change.. and auto correct.. pity its rendering is so slow.. and Vegas and Avid (if Avid was 40k, id still think it was a good editor.. )well ive rambled enough about that.. My point is that i have made the investment to buy, learn and use each and every application for its strong points.. whats strong in one system may be weak in another.. and having access to all of them is prolly the smartest thing i have done within my business.. i can literally do ANYTHING with video with minimal fuss without the contrived attitude of "which one is better".. Theyre all good in different ways.. how u use them.. well.. thats another story ;) and I agree with the comment on the FX/Z1.

February 14th, 2005, 11:51 AM	#20
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	<<<... u can literally ditch ur Matrox RTx100 or Storm 2 now...>>> Although these products are less important now than they were in the past, I still use my DVStorm when I want maximum real-time performance or fast MPEG2 output. So like you said, it's all about using every available tool when it's beneficial to do so, and not worrying about being limited to any particular solution.

February 14th, 2005, 12:48 PM	#21
Johan Manders Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 50	Well...too bad I dont have enough money for buying all the packages! Peter: I found a Licensed DTS encoder for $499 USD. I emailed sony if I am able to use the dts stream in dvd architect 2. You agreed with the comment on the FX/Z1?? To buy or not to buy...that's the question :D

February 14th, 2005, 02:20 PM	#25
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	Edward, Technically you are correct. But from a practical point of view, any corrections or special effects that you apply to the captured video must be processed in some manner to display on an external monitor. This is, in essence, "rendering" the video for preview purposes. This "preview rendering" may not be as full or complete as the actual rendering done to output your final video to file. LE6 has a similar capability. Does Vegas preview all effects without rendering? Does it output full quality video when previewing? Best Regards, Pete

February 14th, 2005, 03:17 PM	#26
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I think realtime 'preview' is scalable in different NLE's by virtue of ram, cpu speed and frame rates or field choice.

February 14th, 2005, 03:56 PM	#29
Johan Manders Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 50	Pete....thanks for the input :) You seem to know how LE6 works. One little question, how does the 5.1 audio work? Can it pan the audio with keyframes? With the dvd making option, will it encode to Dolby Digital? I want to try the program, but i have to let a cd send to me and this will take some days.

February 14th, 2005, 06:31 PM	#30
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	LE6 Dolby Digital 5.1 Johan, My understanding is that LE6 provides capability to author Dolby Digital 5.1 and encode it on a DVD. I have not personally done this, so I can't really speak from personal experience. You may need to use an external program lik Nero to burn the DVD with Dolby Digital. For more info please see the following: Detailed Review of LE6 by Peter Wells (DV Doctor) at Hexus.net Liquid Edition 6.0 Manual Also, you can post your questions on the Pinnacle Liquid Edition forums and get excellent replys from both Pinnacle and expert LE6 users. Pete