Sony Vegas or Pinnacle Liquid 6 or Avid ? at DVinfo.net

Ty Chu · February 14th, 2005, 09:19 AM

Hi Guys:

I will be shooting a Travel DVD on my recently acquired XL2 and would like your professional opinion on which might be the best program for me, as I have only played around with movie maker which is a toy. I would like to know which software of the three would best suit me? 1) Sony Vegas 5 + dvd 2) Pinnacle Liquid 6 3) Avid Xpress dv 4. - My box - p4 3.2ghz - 2gb 533mhz ddr Ram dual channel - 800 fsb - 256 Gforce 6800 Video Card, 660 gb sata 2-250gb + 160gb - dvd burner - If any of you would rather reccomend a different program please let me know also?

current programs I use: Photoshop cs - Dreamweaver MX - Cuteftp pro - I want a nle software program I can upgrade as I gain experience and is somewhat user friendly.

Thanks in advance for all your help, this is the best source of info for the XL2. I read most of the issues and tips and based on what I read I went to B&H and bought my XL2 :>

Ty :)

Edward Troxel · February 14th, 2005, 10:47 AM

My choice would be Vegas. However, you may want to download the demos of each and see what best suits YOUR workflow. (Personally, I avoid anything with the word "Pinnacle" in its name)

Thomas Wagner · February 14th, 2005, 04:19 PM

I think Avid is the deal. Don´t forget 4 of 5 Oscar nominated films are cutted on Avid systems. 80% from the best of the best is really a lot.

greetings from Germany

Thomas

David Stoneburner · February 14th, 2005, 06:26 PM

Well,
It really depends on what interface that you like the most. I almost gave up on Pinnacle, but jumped into Edition 5 and now Edition 5.6. I plan on upgrading to 6 soon. Editon is really the FAST software which is very powerful. I would say that it has the best color correction of them all. I've never used Vegas, but I've seen great reviews. Although most reviews state that the project management is the weakest part of the program. Avid would be the way to go if you want to be able to interface or collaborate with big production houses which most likely would have Avid systems. Personally I don't like the Avid interface, I think that it is the most unfriendly interface of the three. Again, just an opinion.

Good luck

Dan Euritt · February 14th, 2005, 07:10 PM

don't even consider liquid edition 6 until the first bug fix comes out later this month... the le6 dvd implementation has issues right now as well, and it does not include two-pass mpeg2 encoding capability... pinnacle has stopped giving factory support on their web forum, you have to contact 'em directly.

the vegas titler is the worst of all the titlers, because it has no presets and no real export capability... vegas project management is abysmal to say the least, but it's a rock-solid app in my experience, and it has great audio capability... there are a couple of really irritating bugs, and a rather bizarre interface that does not include the premiere magnet function, and it's limited to only one video playback window... it tends to be a rather keyboard-oriented app because of those things, i think that if i am forced to learn key combos to be productive, i might be better off in the long run doing it with the avid j-k-l industry standards.

perhaps the biggest strike against vegas is that there has been no indication that it will ever have any kind of hardware acceleration support, unlike the competition... so while it's a very portable and solid app because of that, you'll have to decide if you want to invest a lot of time learning something that will forever be a real pig when it comes to rendering and timeline playback of 3d stuff.

avid is very complex to learn, but like pinnacle, the manufacturer put some vids online for you to learn the basics with... download the demos, and try 'em all... so far i have stuck with vegas over the other two, but only because le6 is too buggy... i always use external programs for mpeg2/dvd creation, so ymmv.

Magnus Helander · February 17th, 2005, 08:58 AM

but I would suggest using vegas... because...
1. It's cheap
2. Audio capabilities are just fantastic - and 5.1 surround mix built in!!
3. It is rock solid - basically never crashes
4. you can mix and match any format, any framerate, any video size and it will never complain.
5. Very light on system resources and processor = fast
6. Still have no major bugs - other than the "random flash frame" which I only have experienced once. And point release are very frequent...
7. 2pass MPEG-2 straight from timeline!
8. You can network render and let serveral machines help out with rendering while continuing to work on your project
9. Envelopes on tracks for speed/volume/opacity...
10. You edit very very quickly in vegas, IMO it has a very clean predictable interface

The again, I wouldn't rcommend Vegas because...
1. The interface is very "computer" - It's very much a computer program, where Avid is 'a filmmakers interface' with two windows and cozy buttons...
2. Project management is... nonexistent - you will need to sort your clips on the harddrive/folder instead
3. If you (accidentally) unlink a interview clip from its audio track vegas will not tell you, so you can loose sync and not be able to recover if you trim audio/video when unlinked. This is a major SNAFU. Avid lets you unlink but indicates how many frames you are off sync - so it's still kind of linked.
4. Timeline ripple has some very interesting effects on bigger projects, but I think this is true of all editors..
5. No nested timelines as Premiere has...

The key to enjoying vegas, I think, is to get a jog shuttle and an external USB numeric keypad - all matchcuts and trims are done on timeline using keypad since vegas only have one preview window... with these two gadgets things are really really nice.

We finished a 15 minute, four video tracks, six audio-track project last week - and we were ready on schedule with no problems at all and a fantastic overall quality.

For DVD's we use DVDlab which offers a very straightforward interface and great background compile features...

Good luck!
/magnus

Aaron Koolen · February 17th, 2005, 05:04 PM

If you want to save cash and can handle the limitations, there is a Free version of Avid available.

I use and like Vegas for the reasons already stated. But yes it's Media Management is totally crap. Vegas is cheaper than Avid though.

The worst thing about Avid's for me is that fact that they are temperamental about working with your hardware - well that's been my experience anyway. Sometimes a deck is recognised, sometimes not. Sometimes captures just stop part way etc.

That said, heaps of people use them, and they work for them well enough.

Aaron

Kevin Shaw · February 19th, 2005, 12:15 AM

Don't forget to try Adobe Premiere Pro, which is arguably the most widely used and supported "prosumer" editing application for the PC platform. I've tried Pinnacle Liquid Edition and didn't particularly like it; Vegas lacks a true real-time editing option and Avid is basically overpriced for what you get. But as someone said, download the demo versions of all these programs and try them for yourself to see which one you like.

Aaron Koolen · February 19th, 2005, 12:52 AM

I would argue that Vegas does have a true realtime editing option. I edit in real time all the time. With fades, and effects. I think you're meaning it doesn't offer a hardware realtime option, but for a lot of work that's not necessary but I agree would be nice.

Aaron

Kevin Shaw · February 19th, 2005, 11:45 AM

<<< I would argue that Vegas does have a true realtime editing option. I edit in real time all the time. With fades, and effects. I think you're meaning it doesn't offer a hardware realtime option, but for a lot of work that's not necessary but I agree would be nice.>>>

That all depends on what you mean by "real time." The ideal video editing program would never need to render anything to generate full resolution, full frame rate output to a computer screen, external monitor and/or camera or deck. Vegas is farther from fitting that description than some other editing programs, but does have a clever way of allowing you to continue working by displaying reduced quality previews. So if you don't mind the drop in quality then Vegas will allow you to continue working without pausing to render, but that's not true real time editing. Plus Vegas is reportedly slow for generating MPEG2 output, which is something that's also "real time" with other editing products.

Richard Alvarez · February 19th, 2005, 02:25 PM

Sony does offer and NLE with hardware acceleration... it's called Xpri, It's designed to compete with avid, and even has ..."an industry standard user interface just like the one you're probably using now.' - acording to their ad in last months Videography Magazine. (The interface that so many here find 'unfriendly and un-intuitive')

Sony faces the same problem that Avid faced, - if we give them everything in the low end system, why would they buy the high end? Nevertheless, I expect Vegas to adopt the "industry standard interface" (at least as an option) at the same time they develop the equivelant of "mojo" for their low end products. How soon that will happen? My guess, within a year from now.

Expect them to tack the work "pro" somewhere on to the name.

February 14th, 2005, 09:19 AM	#1
Ty Chu Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chandler, Arizona Posts: 60	Sony Vegas or Pinnacle Liquid 6 or Avid ? Hi Guys: I will be shooting a Travel DVD on my recently acquired XL2 and would like your professional opinion on which might be the best program for me, as I have only played around with movie maker which is a toy. I would like to know which software of the three would best suit me? 1) Sony Vegas 5 + dvd 2) Pinnacle Liquid 6 3) Avid Xpress dv 4. - My box - p4 3.2ghz - 2gb 533mhz ddr Ram dual channel - 800 fsb - 256 Gforce 6800 Video Card, 660 gb sata 2-250gb + 160gb - dvd burner - If any of you would rather reccomend a different program please let me know also? current programs I use: Photoshop cs - Dreamweaver MX - Cuteftp pro - I want a nle software program I can upgrade as I gain experience and is somewhat user friendly. Thanks in advance for all your help, this is the best source of info for the XL2. I read most of the issues and tips and based on what I read I went to B&H and bought my XL2 :> Ty :)

February 14th, 2005, 10:47 AM	#2
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	My choice would be Vegas. However, you may want to download the demos of each and see what best suits YOUR workflow. (Personally, I avoid anything with the word "Pinnacle" in its name) __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 14th, 2005, 04:19 PM	#3
Thomas Wagner Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 48	AVID I think Avid is the deal. Don´t forget 4 of 5 Oscar nominated films are cutted on Avid systems. 80% from the best of the best is really a lot. greetings from Germany Thomas

February 17th, 2005, 08:58 AM	#6
Magnus Helander Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 221	Fire up the flame throwers... but I would suggest using vegas... because... 1. It's cheap 2. Audio capabilities are just fantastic - and 5.1 surround mix built in!! 3. It is rock solid - basically never crashes 4. you can mix and match any format, any framerate, any video size and it will never complain. 5. Very light on system resources and processor = fast 6. Still have no major bugs - other than the "random flash frame" which I only have experienced once. And point release are very frequent... 7. 2pass MPEG-2 straight from timeline! 8. You can network render and let serveral machines help out with rendering while continuing to work on your project 9. Envelopes on tracks for speed/volume/opacity... 10. You edit very very quickly in vegas, IMO it has a very clean predictable interface The again, I wouldn't rcommend Vegas because... 1. The interface is very "computer" - It's very much a computer program, where Avid is 'a filmmakers interface' with two windows and cozy buttons... 2. Project management is... nonexistent - you will need to sort your clips on the harddrive/folder instead 3. If you (accidentally) unlink a interview clip from its audio track vegas will not tell you, so you can loose sync and not be able to recover if you trim audio/video when unlinked. This is a major SNAFU. Avid lets you unlink but indicates how many frames you are off sync - so it's still kind of linked. 4. Timeline ripple has some very interesting effects on bigger projects, but I think this is true of all editors.. 5. No nested timelines as Premiere has... The key to enjoying vegas, I think, is to get a jog shuttle and an external USB numeric keypad - all matchcuts and trims are done on timeline using keypad since vegas only have one preview window... with these two gadgets things are really really nice. We finished a 15 minute, four video tracks, six audio-track project last week - and we were ready on schedule with no problems at all and a fantastic overall quality. For DVD's we use DVDlab which offers a very straightforward interface and great background compile features... Good luck! /magnus __________________ Magnus Helander, Crossmediageek on G+

February 17th, 2005, 05:04 PM	#7
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	If you want to save cash and can handle the limitations, there is a Free version of Avid available. I use and like Vegas for the reasons already stated. But yes it's Media Management is totally crap. Vegas is cheaper than Avid though. The worst thing about Avid's for me is that fact that they are temperamental about working with your hardware - well that's been my experience anyway. Sometimes a deck is recognised, sometimes not. Sometimes captures just stop part way etc. That said, heaps of people use them, and they work for them well enough. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

February 14th, 2005, 06:26 PM	#4
David Stoneburner Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 493	Well, It really depends on what interface that you like the most. I almost gave up on Pinnacle, but jumped into Edition 5 and now Edition 5.6. I plan on upgrading to 6 soon. Editon is really the FAST software which is very powerful. I would say that it has the best color correction of them all. I've never used Vegas, but I've seen great reviews. Although most reviews state that the project management is the weakest part of the program. Avid would be the way to go if you want to be able to interface or collaborate with big production houses which most likely would have Avid systems. Personally I don't like the Avid interface, I think that it is the most unfriendly interface of the three. Again, just an opinion. Good luck

February 14th, 2005, 07:10 PM	#5
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	don't even consider liquid edition 6 until the first bug fix comes out later this month... the le6 dvd implementation has issues right now as well, and it does not include two-pass mpeg2 encoding capability... pinnacle has stopped giving factory support on their web forum, you have to contact 'em directly. the vegas titler is the worst of all the titlers, because it has no presets and no real export capability... vegas project management is abysmal to say the least, but it's a rock-solid app in my experience, and it has great audio capability... there are a couple of really irritating bugs, and a rather bizarre interface that does not include the premiere magnet function, and it's limited to only one video playback window... it tends to be a rather keyboard-oriented app because of those things, i think that if i am forced to learn key combos to be productive, i might be better off in the long run doing it with the avid j-k-l industry standards. perhaps the biggest strike against vegas is that there has been no indication that it will ever have any kind of hardware acceleration support, unlike the competition... so while it's a very portable and solid app because of that, you'll have to decide if you want to invest a lot of time learning something that will forever be a real pig when it comes to rendering and timeline playback of 3d stuff. avid is very complex to learn, but like pinnacle, the manufacturer put some vids online for you to learn the basics with... download the demos, and try 'em all... so far i have stuck with vegas over the other two, but only because le6 is too buggy... i always use external programs for mpeg2/dvd creation, so ymmv.

February 19th, 2005, 12:15 AM	#8
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Don't forget to try Adobe Premiere Pro, which is arguably the most widely used and supported "prosumer" editing application for the PC platform. I've tried Pinnacle Liquid Edition and didn't particularly like it; Vegas lacks a true real-time editing option and Avid is basically overpriced for what you get. But as someone said, download the demo versions of all these programs and try them for yourself to see which one you like.

February 19th, 2005, 12:52 AM	#9
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	I would argue that Vegas does have a true realtime editing option. I edit in real time all the time. With fades, and effects. I think you're meaning it doesn't offer a hardware realtime option, but for a lot of work that's not necessary but I agree would be nice. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

February 19th, 2005, 11:45 AM	#10
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	<<< I would argue that Vegas does have a true realtime editing option. I edit in real time all the time. With fades, and effects. I think you're meaning it doesn't offer a hardware realtime option, but for a lot of work that's not necessary but I agree would be nice.>>> That all depends on what you mean by "real time." The ideal video editing program would never need to render anything to generate full resolution, full frame rate output to a computer screen, external monitor and/or camera or deck. Vegas is farther from fitting that description than some other editing programs, but does have a clever way of allowing you to continue working by displaying reduced quality previews. So if you don't mind the drop in quality then Vegas will allow you to continue working without pausing to render, but that's not true real time editing. Plus Vegas is reportedly slow for generating MPEG2 output, which is something that's also "real time" with other editing products.

February 19th, 2005, 02:25 PM	#11
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Sony does offer and NLE with hardware acceleration... it's called Xpri, It's designed to compete with avid, and even has ..."an industry standard user interface just like the one you're probably using now.' - acording to their ad in last months Videography Magazine. (The interface that so many here find 'unfriendly and un-intuitive') Sony faces the same problem that Avid faced, - if we give them everything in the low end system, why would they buy the high end? Nevertheless, I expect Vegas to adopt the "industry standard interface" (at least as an option) at the same time they develop the equivelant of "mojo" for their low end products. How soon that will happen? My guess, within a year from now. Expect them to tack the work "pro" somewhere on to the name.