Vegas 4 vs Premiere 6.5
 

Hello,

I've been a keen Premiere 6.5 fan since I got into video editing on my PC, but today I got introduced to Vegas 4 and I must say that I'm _VERY_ impressed!

* Modern & responsive interface
* Easy to understand, took me 10 minutes to do my first project
* Many features that Premiere 6.5 lacks ( like ramping )
* Can capture a whole tape from my XM-2 and make Clips of it ( VERY useful ).
* Read .PSD files directly ( with transperancy and all )

It feels like Vegas is a good mix of Premiere 6.5, After Effects and Scenalyzer wich makes it a powerful blend in my opinion.

I'm already scratching my wallet trying to find some $$$ too buy Vegas for and replace my pre-historic Premiere software....

Interested in YOUR opinion! What is missing in Vegas 4? Does Premiere excel in some areas? maybe I should use them both?

The thread is open <g>

// Lazze

I gave up on Premiere. It was never really stable (sometimes I could go for days without a crash. Sometimes it crashed every 20 minutes.) It was also, well, clunky.

I like everything about Vegas expect its name and the lack of a hard copy manual (printing a 300 plus page pdf file is annoying.) Robust, stable, full featured. I am still learning the bells and whistles but overall I am a happy editor.

Hi Rick,

I worked in Vegas for about 6 hours yesterday, I'm sold! It is so good! Maybe you can do the same in premiere, but it is so much easier in Vegas!

// Lazze

I am still struggling with the Vegas interface. Lots of easy things that I took for granted in Premiere are suddenly annoying in Vegas. Scrubbing the timeline still annoys me. It is a very different interface.

Overall though, minor quibbles aside, Vegas is so much better than Premiere. Much much better editor.

Hi Lars,

Although I prefer editing on my Mac in Final Cut Pro, I have to agree with you about Vegas 4. On my Windows PC, Vegas is the best NLE I have used, compared with other NLEs, in that price range. Vegas is without doubt the most intuitive and powerful NLE for the money. Premiere was my first real NLE, and a really good one, but I think Vegas is even better.

I hope Sonicfoundry don´t have as much financial troubles as the rumors tells, because I think they do deserve to continue their work with this great NLE.

Ivan

One thing to add. I agree with you guys that Vegas seems to be the superior product, but in case of multicam editing whereas you want to transition from your A roll to your B roll, Premiere's interface seems to be less hassle and much easier to use.

Unless you guys have a better idea, this is how I see doing a multicam edit in Vegas:

Capture Camera1

Capture Camera2

Create a video track.

Go through each clip and place them on the video track and sync them up correctly.

In Premiere, if you have two cameras synchronized at the shoot, all you would have to do is capture Cam1 and Cam2 and place it on the A and B roll on the timeline and then add transitions.

Vegas makes this operation impossibly easy. You really just have to know the interface (specifically the A/B track switch).

1) If you really don't want DV clips detected, turn DV scene detection off and then capture.

2) Add a video track and click the A/B exploded icon (bottom left corner of the video track controls to the left on the timeline)

3) Toss in both your video tracks. Do all your edits on one track, split it when you want to cut between A and B, then pull the split track away from the split any time to want to be viewing the other track. Pull the fader on the split track when you want to fade between A/B.

Please let me know if this doesn't make sense. I'll post pictures. :-)

About the only downside Vegas 4 i that it does not support Canon 4-track. However, neither did Premiere.

All things considered, and considering the way Discreet treated (or rather ignored) Cinestream owners, I will probably migrate to Vegas 4.

When Sonic Foundry asked me what I would like added, I said 4-track. Well at least they are looking at it.

What's cool with Vegas multi cam editing is that you can temporarily shrink cam1 preview and cam 2 preview and put them in the same preview window so you can easily watch both camera shots and decide when you want to change cam views. You can edit 3, 4, 5,6 etc cameras this way, simutaniously seeing all the cams.

The standard answer to the 4 track problem is "scenalyzer".

http://www.scenalyzer.com

Brian, I know how to expand the track but I can't see how you can place both video clips on the smae track and transition? Please make a lair out of me :), actually with this out of the way, Premiere will get uninstalled. :)

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your input! I've been working on a project today, 100% in Vegas ;-) it is the story of our first child ( and so far, the only one ;-).... starts with some "before" shots, mix with stills, animations(boy/girl?!?!) and the "after shots" up until 6 months of age ( she is 7 months now ).

Since this is a home/family project I have taken the liberty of using "the girl is mine" song by M.Jackson.

The only thing that I find cumbersome in Vegas is the "trim" window... still like Premiere bette there ... even though Vegas function is more advanced.... but you know what they say about old dogs and sitting ( I'm hitting 30 in June ;-)

// Lazze

Here's a 30 second, 1 MB wmv of how to do A/B tracking. Right click it and save as, or plop the URL straight in Media Player. My web server doesn't know the wmv type, so it'll try and send it to you as a text file if you just click it.

http://www.maybemedia.com/abtrack.wmv

Hope it makes sense after that, and does what you want it to.

Vegas has a trim window?

OK, I was a dedicated Pinnacle product user for a long time. I know, the 1 I was using was as basic as they come, BUT, it always worked, was stable and I could do what I had to do with it for a long time (namely, I made money using it). Alas, my old slow machine was dying a slow death and not worth fixing anymore so I took the plunge to a new hot machine and new hot Pinnacle software, after trying Prem 6.0 and Vegas 4. I was all excited, new machine, new software, ready to go 3 weddings and a bar mitzvah waiting to be done. WOW! I can't wait!!! Well, the software although powerful and I mean powerful, would not work very well on the new machine and made trying to do my work frustrating and a total hardship. A friend gave me a brand new unregisitered program that started with an AV**. I loaded it was all excited and had never come away from anything as frustrated as that. Not very intuitive. Mind you, I'm a lot older than probably many if not most here, but I'm not all stupid or senile, I just could not find anything to work. (that didn't require a 3 month learning curve) Someone said try VideoFactory 2, learn the interface and if you like it keep it OR move up to Vegas 4. I said I tried V4 and had a problem. He said, You big dummy, try it again but 1st try MF2. I did that, and the moral of the story is; I am now a happy Vegas 4 user and now understand why people like it so much. It's intuitive, easy to learn, powerful makes editing almost fun and frankly I'm learning so much everytime I use it the "AH-HA" factor is running very high right now. I already have the bar mitzvah and 1 wedding done with no problems.
Vegas users of the world, I guess you can count me in :)
Don

Josh: I think Lars is referring to the trimmer. If you haven't seen it, it's a right-click option on any media file almost anywhere in the interface. Takes a little getting used to, but can be helpful sometimes.

Here is what scares me about Vegas Video:

AVID - Avid Xpress DV 23.99
APPLE - Final Cut Pro 14.41
ADOBE - Premiere 32.20
PINNACLE - Edition 11.30
SONIC FOUNDRY - Vegas Video .41

This was the price for a share of stock when I checked them all 2 minutes ago. I won't even get into market caps.

I have never really given Vegas any serious thought or even considered looking into it for the simple reason that the company may not be around for the long haul. Sure, someone could come in and buy them, but usually when that happens, the product suffers as it gets rolled into the new company's product line and idealogy.

Does anyone have information that supports SF being around to support the product for a long time?

just my 2 cents.

First of all, if you are editing Multi-Cam, Vegas is extremely easy to use. And it is getting easier! There are some scripts that will be included with Gary Kleiner's instructional video that greatly simplifies multi-cam editing. You'll be surprised what can be accomplished! See here for information on the tape:

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/rea...335&forumid=24

And, yes, Vegas has a trimmer window - but I don't use it.

Carl,
Take a look at Alias/Wavefront. They have had the same problems and for years people have said that they will close their doors. This hasn't happened yet and most likely will not. Same with Avid...Mircosoft or not to Microsoft. Now Microsoft owns most of Avid anyways.
I wouldnt worry about a company puttting out such a great program then next day disappear in a cloud of smoke. They will be around long enough.


Rob:D

PS- talk is talk but look at the money and you will see.

Oh THAT trim window. Yes, I use that sometimes. I thought you meant like the AVID's trimmer window.

what can xpress dv do that vegas 4 can't? why is xpress dv3.5 so much more expensive?

Whoa now back the truck up. . .I just mentioned a trimmer window. More important for narrative type editing, I'd think.

Carl,

Sonic Foundry has seen much tough times and actually they are just hanging by a thread, but if we continue to use their products they will be around for awhile. I think a major in the business model is that they use the download only strategy a lot, and these are some considerably pricy merchandise. We are consumers and as consumers we love to purchase things that we can manipulate and physically hold in our hands, one that comes from a comically huge box, it makes us feel like we are truly getting our money's worth. Now this may not apply to anyone here, but imagine an average Joe or Jane ?

Brian and others thanks for the link, I think Premiere will have to be set free for the meantime...:)

Why is it more expensive?
Avid.
Everyone has by now heard of them or will hear of them.

Nike or Converse
Which shoe cost more?
Which has more money?
Why do they charge more?

Its all about making a name for themselves. They got the name, and the tools, So they feel they can charge more and still keep the same spot in the market. Who is going to buy something that no one knows about?
Would you trust the company that you constantly hear about. Or would you want to waste your money on some company that you never heard of?

Rob:D

I guess the price keeps them inside the mentality of the average consumer thinking that they are better. By borrowing your analogy, Nike cost more than Converse therefore Nike must be better. I'm broke now but when I get some money I will buy Nike. It is imbedded in many consumer's minds, Ferrari's cost more than Toyotas, therefore they much be better, in some aspects, yes, but $250,000 better I highly doubt it, especially since we have a speed limit. But staying on track, You guys may know, what can I as a videographer do in Avid that Vegas won't do?

stock
AVID - Avid Xpress DV 23.99
APPLE - Final Cut Pro 14.41
ADOBE - Premiere 32.20
PINNACLE - Edition 11.30
SONIC FOUNDRY - Vegas Video .41

i'm not s sure stock price will equal a product will be around for a long time ... how many NLE's/boards has pinnicle used/had in past 3-5 years and are they all still here ?

any one of these stock could be under $1 within a year ? when i was playing the stock market every broker said the safest place to put your $$ for a guarantee 7% return was PG&E and they are now in chapeter 11 or is it 7 and they suspended the 7% dividend ? same with united airlines ..who would have thought 2 years ago that all these airlines would be filing for protection ? looking at the above list i sure wouldn't invest in apple or avid and adobe is a bit over priced ... if you want a safe place to put your $$ IMO CASH is the best at the moment.
if you are looking for a excellent NLE to spend your cash and you use your NLE for your projects or your own business ( shooting dv) then i recommend Vegas4 ... if you are looking for a NLE editor to work in the FILM BUSINESS then the sure bet is AVID , a not so sure bet is FCP but FCP is making inroads but it is NOT a sure NLE that will get you hired/jobs in hollywood ... now based upon "history" and covering every format AVID is the leader ... but if you work in dv then you can get much more value for your $$ choosing any of the others. FCP offers many combinations of formats to edit in and is a good value for the $$ and as long as apple is around it will stay the same price and offer more each year.

I've lost enough in the market over the years to realize 1 thing. In a case like this, a software company, specifically, an NLE, I don't need a wall street broker to tell me if I should get it or not.
Worst case, lets say SoFo went under this year. If you have the product and are happy with it and it works and does the job you bought it to do, does it matter? Think about it! So in 2 years you won't have the support you have now, OK, you've got 1-2 years to check out and buy and learn another piece of software. Software changes ALL the time. Hardware changes ALL the time. You know one of the BEST hardware/software combos around went under about 10-12 years ago, I wish I had 1 and I know about 6 guys that do and swear by them, is the Amiga! Don't laugh. They were and are REAL TIME, No rendering, animations galore, a real good titler. Of course,trying to get the machine fixed today can be a problem, but there are people who still do it. Obviously Toaster software is the newest generation of the Amiga, but my point is, if you have a good or better than good product that people buy and use, who really cares if the stock is $.41 or $41.00. What if the company were privately held, you'd NEVER know if they were in financial trouble or not.
If you like the product buy it, use it, go forth and make video, if you don't like, keep looking till you find something that meets your needs, not your brokers! :}

Just for reference, not trying to start a war, Apple has a little over 4 billion in cash (and cash equivalent) reserves. FCP 4 should be announced in a few days at NAB. I subscribe to several different job email services (related to video). Almost half the positions are for FCP editors, the other half Avid. I've never seen a listing for a Vegas editor. Never. The latest rumors have Apple and Adobe exploring a merger/sale again. Probably just rumor, but you never know. I'd rather see Apple get their hands on Adobe than Microsoft. I can't imagine Photoshop after Microsoft got done tinkering with it.

I remember when Apple was on it's last legs. How far they have come. You're right, in the "pro" ranks, it's either FCP or Avid, some of that I believe though might have to do with the old "we've always used (insert name) and we're not changing" thinking. I was a dedicated Pinnacle user, even used (tried to) Edition. I said before, it's a good product, powerful, easier to use than Avid, (for me at least) BUT...in the final analysis, I went to Vegas because I didn't have to spend hours of frustration getting it to work on my new machine, didn't have to spend hours learning how to bring in or start to edit a project because the interface was convaluted and for the money, I decided for my purposes it worked fine. I actually would have preferred to get another NLE that's ALL real time, easy to use and produces a great end result , but I just didn't have an extra $2500 for the software. No, I am not one of those who is a screaming banshee about my NLE, all I'm saying is that a lot of people that do professional work are switching over (any number of reasons). Notice I did not say professional editors, but a lot of people I know in the biz, weddings, events, training, seminars, etc... frankly I don't care what software you use, if you like it, it does the job you want it to do, it's stable on your system, and you're comfortable and happy with it, USE IT! I'm not looking for a job as a professional editor. I'm way too old, don't like editiing anyway and never have nor ever will work for someone else so I know I'm not worried about what the ads say.
OK, back to editing :)
(this is how I keep my sanity, I edit, go online, edit, go online...)
Don

Just to clarify a few things .

I'm not a broker and I don't have a broker. If you ever meet me you'll know that I'm the farthest thing from wall street you'll ever see.

My point was simple, if the longetivity of the product is important to you, you better look at the company that it is producing it. That's it. You're more than welcome to use whatever software you want for whatever reasons you want.

For me, I don't want to invest the time and money in learning something so big and face the possibility that I will have to start from square 1 in another year. I've had it happen to me in the past, so that is why I bring this up.

I suppose to make my point a little better, I should bring up the market caps. Here is the definition I "stole" off the MSN Money site for non-investor types:

Market Capitalization
The value of a company's outstanding shares, as measured by shares times current price. Speaking very generally, the larger the market capitalization, the safer the company. Firms with very small market capitalizations can be unusually risky.

APPLE 5.195 BILLION
ADOBE 7.441 BILLION
AVID 666.5 MILLION
PINNACLE 705.5 MILLION
SONIC FOUNDRY 11.4 MILLION

Maybe that helps put the size of the companies in perspective a little better.

This is heading the direction of off-topic so I'll try to steer it back by asking the question:

From a capabilities standpoint how does Edition stack up against Premiere?

Thanks

Carl

OK ... have not used EDITION - but will give it a demo at next show i attend

getting back to NLE .. i don't think one starts from "zero" when one changes to a different NLE ... IMO they are all similar. you take what you learned from one and apply it to the new NLE. perhaps you need to hold a different key down for a ripple edit but you already know what a ripple edit does and doesn't do ...
so the learning curve is faster when you switch VS. the learning curve is much longer for somebody that has not used a NLE.
today it is much easier to switch .. 10 year ago you had to spend 60K to get what you can have today at $600-1500 so switching was very expensive.

i have tried the NLE's mentioned ( except edition) and i rate premiere LAST .... if you need to go back to FILM to cut negative then that leaves FCP & AVID as your choices ....

This thread might be of interest to some. If you search you'll find others. But Carl's point is well made, would you buy a car from a company with 10 million in market cap? Why risk your money and the potential future of your business on a marginal company?

I did try Edition, (not the demo, the actual program) I really wish I could have gotten it to run properly on my system and perhaps I will continue to work on it because the power it has is awesome. Background rendering, insta save, not auto save; different, it saves every 1/30th of a second, the is no save button it does it automatically, you can never lose you work:)
I believe when Ver5 come out it will really take a market share. I really really wish I could get it to work and play better on my system. I was getting too far behind so I had to make a decision and I did. Vegas 4. Right, wrong or whatever, it worked for me and that's all I care about.
Come on Edition, work with me baby, work with me!!!

OOOPS! OK guys. Do you really believe that Sonic Foundry will go flat?

I'll bet on them before some other big companies. Check out UAL,MCI, Enron, Arthur Anderson and the list keeps going. Hell, even Mickey's D's stock is down. Maybe it's me, but frankly, it doesn't matter to me. If they do go out, big deal, not the 1st, certainly not the last.

SoFo has a very large following and actually is a decent product but in the long run, it doesn't matter. If Avid or Adobe or any of them went out of biz today, those that use the product would find a way to carry on, right?

People said the same thing about Apple a few years ago, don't buy because they are going out of business. Sofo is making money. They sold off parts of the company they didnt need or want. It may take awhile, but they will be alright. Especially with new support for HD and other things coming down the pike. Part of their problem was they got too dispersed into different fields. Not any more, though it will be tough for them.

Based on the reasoning here, there should be no such thing as the shareware market, but there is, and plenty of people are making a living out of it.
SoFo has a reputation in the Audio world, and it's getting a great one in the Video world.
I think the Mac people don't like 'not' being the only ones who can crave about great sofware and interface hehehe.

As far as no job offers for Vegas? So what. The same could be said for the number one NLE in market share.....Premier.
Yet Adobe continues to move lots of product. And plenty of indendent films have been made with it.

All that matters is many people ... pro, independent and amateur, are getting real work done with Vegas, and loving it's ease of use and stability. With Vegas, you will just have to get used to your software not crashing a couple of times a day.

Some people want to make others believe if you get the wrong product, your are stuck for life. What a crock.

In the unlikely event that SoFo does go under, then I'll just have to adjust and learn something else. No big deal. In the mean time, I'm getting work done. I've been doing that my whole life.

If your are buying something for creative work the way you would buy an accounting program, that is sad. But that is exactly what many artist wannabes do.

Isn't the sky falling just another special effect?

I split the last post by Carl and it can be found here.

I belive Sonic Foundry is a prime takeover candidate. No matter what happens to Sonic, it's audio video products seem to be generating a lot of sales. Maybe it would actually be good for someone to market the products differently. A more professional name, a new box, advertise as a broadcast quality NLE, lower the price a bit and presto $$$$$$$$$$$$. It does appear that VV4 is a winner, so no matter what happens to Sonic, the products will go on, someone would love to find this product up for grabs.

I wish that that were true. Sonic Foundry is bleeding cash. Sonic Foundry's sales have been flat for three years. Last quarter from operations they lost $2 million on $6 million in sales. Without refiancing and asset sales they would have burned through all their cash.

Sofo is in tough shape. But what does that have to do with editing? Vegas Video is an excellent editor. If Sofo disappeared tommorrow I would still have their great software installed. Another company would buy Vegas and may or may not support it was well as Sofo does. happens all the time with software.

Worst case, in a year or two, I may have to change editors. By then Vegas will have more than paid for itself. And in a year or two I wouldn't be surprised if I am changing editors anyway. Technology changes.

Ignore the past - What's the future?
 

I'm sure this is much more interesting to Apple than Adobe. Adobe has a very strong business model and may be the best managed software company in the PC space after Microsoft.

That said, if Apple bought Adobe, it would be the only reason I'd need to drop Premiere. It took a long time for Adobe to get its software working well (sort of) in the Windows UI - Mac always came first. With Apple in the picture, Mac would come first again.

Vegas isn't available for the Mac, which I consider a strong plus. Yup, I'm in the Windows camp, so I want products designed for and exploiting the environment.

As for Sonic's viability, the comments here have focused on stock price, market cap, and cash problems. I think it's more important to focus on the company's product lineup, the viability of those products given market trends, and what the company has done recently in its product space. The lineup and market trends are well known to us.

That leaves company actions. It's clear to me that Sonic is re-focusing on a higher margin segment of the business. It has done so by shifting emphasis away from its low-end products to Vegas, Acid, and Sound Forge as well as its commercial offerings.

The most obvious evidence of this is Video Factory. It may be the best editor in the under-$100 category, but all the other major players already have some kind of DVD authoring included. There is no VF 3.0 on the horizon, a fact confirmed to me by a Sonic representative at a recent show. Sonic licensed VF to Broderbund (a deal that apprently didn't happen), Nova (Video Explosion), and Sony (MovieBlast). A Sony rep told me that DVD authoring would be in its next release of the product.

So rather than duke it out with Pinnacle at the low end, Sonic has decided to duke it out with Adobe and Pinnacle (and maybe Avid et al) in the middle. Given that every comment made in this thread has been extremely positive toward Vegas, I think this strategy is sound.

I use quite a few software products supplied by companies much smaller than Sonic. Most of these I've used for years. I'm not afraid of small companies if their products have merit. I'm also not afraid of companies that have experienced difficulties if they appear to be working their way out of it.

And yes, I have decided to switch to Vegas.

Will

Sound, DVD, and Add-ins
 

There are three areas in which I think Vegas is ahead of Premiere.

• Sound - clearly a Sonic strength. Vegas may have the best sound capabilities in the category and the best set of other programs (Acid, Sound Forge, Noise Reduction, Acid Loops) to back it up.
  
• DVD - Premiere doesn't have it yet. This is an area in which Sonic could really throw the industry for a loop -- imagine what would happen if DVD Architect supported tape and could author a DVD-9? Reel DVD costs $1,000 and doesn't do DVD-9.
  
• Add-ins - When I was initially deciding which NLE to use, the most cited reason was the huge number of add-ins. Vegas has an add-in structure, one that allows users to write scripts and developers to quickly create additional functions. There are lots of developers with the right Windows skills to build these add-ins, and it will be easier than building the multi-platform add-ins required for Premiere. A few interesting add-ins could really spark interest in Vegas

Will

Adobe is bring out this summer Encore DVD.It promises tight integration with Premiere, Photoshop, After Effects and DVD-9 capabilities. Best of all the price, $549 USD. It will give Apple's DVD Studio Pro some serious competition. It only runs on Windows XP.