Camera and Editing software questions at DVinfo.net

Tim Bisley · June 17th, 2008, 06:29 PM

I am in the process of putting together a short film that I plan on showing on youtube. However I am at a standstill on what type of camera and non-linear editing system to use.

I am looking at the list of Prosumer Camcorders at B&H and I also have my eye on the Panasonic DVX-100a, however it is quite expensive at almost $3000.

The type of camera I am looking for is something that I will be able to do a variety of shots, which include tracking shots and close-ups. I also need something rugged and durable since I plan on doing a lot of chase sequences.

There will also be at least two scenes with dialogue. One scene will be a telephone conversation where both parties will be filmed separately and the other is a scene where one person is just talking. Ideally I would like to use the camera for sound and avoid using a boom or body mikes. Is that possible?

I also want my short to have the look of film. I have read I would need a cinema filter however I have also heard you can implement a filter during postproduction.

In terms of editing software I am looking at Avid Express Pro or Final Cut Pro. From what I understand Avid is the industry standard but it. However is it best to take a class or to just buy the program and learn by doing?.

Is there any place in New York City where I can play with a demo version of these tools? Any suggestions would be helpful.

Edward Carlson · June 17th, 2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Bisley

Ideally I would like to use the camera for sound and avoid using a boom or body mikes. Is that possible?

Possible, yes. Your best option? Not by a long shot. Even just recording to the camera from a boom is better than any on-camera mic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Bisley

I also want my short to have the look of film. I have read I would need a cinema filter however I have also heard you can implement a filter during postproduction.

To get the film look, you would want to shoot in 24p (available on the DVX.) There's more to the film look than just the camera, however. Lighting, angles, and framing also contributes. I'll let others with more film-look experience tell you more about it. I have never minded the video look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Bisley

In terms of editing software I am looking at Avid Express Pro or Final Cut Pro. From what I understand Avid is the industry standard but it. However is it best to take a class or to just buy the program and learn by doing?.

Avid is the industry leader, but FCP is much more affordable. It is coming up quickly, especially with independents.

Tim Bisley · June 17th, 2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Carlson

Possible, yes. Your best option? Not by a long shot. Even just recording to the camera from a boom is better than any on-camera mic.

To get the film look, you would want to shoot in 24p (available on the DVX.) There's more to the film look than just the camera, however. Lighting, angles, and framing also contributes. I'll let others with more film-look experience tell you more about it. I have never minded the video look.

Avid is the industry leader, but FCP is much more affordable. It is coming up quickly, especially with independents.

Edward,

Thank you so much for your help. Since I am only doing two scenes with dialogue, I guess it would not be that much of a hassle to use the boom mike for that those scenes. I concur with you that the factors you mention come into play to create the cinema look. What type of camera do you use?

Edward Carlson · June 17th, 2008, 09:27 PM

I use a DVC30. I don't even attempt a film look, so I have no experience. I use FCP to edit and I love it. I took a class at school, but I have learned a lot just by using it.

Boyd Ostroff · June 18th, 2008, 06:48 AM

Hi Tim and welcome to DVinfo. I've moved your thread to our "open DV discussion" forum since the "neighborhood" forum is really just for introducing yourself.

Have you played with the cameras at B&H? You can't really film anything, but you can get a feeling for what they're like. There are so many camera choices today that I would hesitate to recommend a specific model. But note that the DVX is an older model which only shoots standard definition. You might spend awhile browsing our camera forums to get some ideas:

Other standard definition cameras: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=7
Inexpensive high definition cameras: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=132

If you want to play with Final Cut Pro, visit one of the Apple Stores in New York. They should have it installed on a machine there and let you get a feeling for it. Note that it is no longer sold as a stand-alone program though; you have to buy the full Production Suite.

Yes, you can use software to acheive a "filmic look" after you shoot. You might start by visiting our forum on the topic here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=34

A good friend of mine took a two month crash-course in film making at New York Film Academy: http://www.nyfa.com/. When I visited her there it seemed like a nice place with helpful people and she really learned a lot. I believe they have all sorts of short courses which you can tailor to your schedule and needs. This isn't really a recommendation, but it might be worth looking into because you could get some hands-on experience with cameras and software there before buying.

Good luck with your project and happy shopping!

Tim Bisley · June 18th, 2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Hi Tim and welcome to DVinfo. I've moved your thread to our "open DV discussion" forum since the "neighborhood" forum is really just for introducing yourself.

Have you played with the cameras at B&H? You can't really film anything, but you can get a feeling for what they're like. There are so many camera choices today that I would hesitate to recommend a specific model. But note that the DVX is an older model which only shoots standard definition. You might spend awhile browsing our camera forums to get some ideas:

Other standard definition cameras: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=7
Inexpensive high definition cameras: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=132

If you want to play with Final Cut Pro, visit one of the Apple Stores in New York. They should have it installed on a machine there and let you get a feeling for it. Note that it is no longer sold as a stand-alone program though; you have to buy the full Production Suite.

Yes, you can use software to acheive a "filmic look" after you shoot. You might start by visiting our forum on the topic here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=34

A good friend of mine took a two month crash-course in film making at New York Film Academy: http://www.nyfa.com/. When I visited her there it seemed like a nice place with helpful people and she really learned a lot. I believe they have all sorts of short courses which you can tailor to your schedule and needs. This isn't really a recommendation, but it might be worth looking into because you could get some hands-on experience with cameras and software there before buying.

Good luck with your project and happy shopping!

Boyd,

Thank you for moving my thread and providing the information for me. At the risk of sounding like more of a greenhorn, what do you mean by stand-alone program and full Production Suite? Also is the PC version of FCP as good as the Mac version?

Thanks again,

Frank Simpson · June 18th, 2008, 08:03 PM

Tim-

The stand-alone application is just Final Cut Pro. The full production suite (which is the only way you can acquire FCP anymore) is FCP, Motion, LiveType, Soundtrack, DVD Studio Pro and Compressor; several applications, each with a specific focus and function.

There is no PC version of Final Cut, it is a Mac only application.

Meaning no disprespect, you seem to have some pretty high ideas about making a film, but without most of the necessary skills and knowledge to do so. Having a shop full of woodworking tools does not make one a carpenter, any more than having a lot of high-tech video hardware/software makes one a videographer. There are an awful lot of skills needed for good filmmaking. Effective camera operation, lighting, sound capture, video editing, audio editing, color correction, etc, etc, etc, etc....

If youtube is your only goal, your would most likely do just as well with iMovie (Mac), or Movie Maker (PC). They're actually quite nice applications. If you feel you need more "firepower" you might look at Adpbe Premiere Elements or Final Cut Express.

Bruce Foreman · June 19th, 2008, 10:27 AM

Look carefully at the limits on any older standard definition camera gear. Widescreen should be considered a MUST, nobody is buying 4:3 TV's anymore-the stores have nothing but widescreen sets unless they have old stock to unload.

So if you go disc distribution in addition to youtube folks will be viewing your product on widescreen.

Here is one approach to your dilemma: If budget is a consideration instead of the $3000 range you're looking at, consider the under $1000 range. The Canon HV20 or HV30 can be used in either hi definition or standard definition, has mic input and headphone jack (MUST features if you semi serious), manual override on exposure, mic input level control, manual focus and more all in a very compact and easily portable form factor.

One inexpensive editor package that packs a LOT of BANG for the buck is Pinnacle Studio which does everything from capture to authoring DVD and also renders out to various file formats some of which can be uploaded to youtube. It comes in 3 levels: Basic (which I do not recommend but is workable), Plus (adds a second video track for easy overlays and cutaways), and Ultimate (comes with some dynamite extras).

This package will handle hi def editing as well as standard def but be warned...HD editing begins to get into computer "horsepower" requirements.

Learning by doing: Suggestions above in other posts are right on, but if you can't take a course or two due to budget or job schedule consider participating in the video "challenges" on this website. Everyone who has done so on a regular or semi regular basis has seen their skills grow a lot. This site's semi regular challenge is described as like "free film school" and some of the entries have been done with simple and sometimes "aging" gear.

June 17th, 2008, 06:29 PM	#1
Tim Bisley Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: New York, NY Posts: 28	Camera and Editing software questions I am in the process of putting together a short film that I plan on showing on youtube. However I am at a standstill on what type of camera and non-linear editing system to use. I am looking at the list of Prosumer Camcorders at B&H and I also have my eye on the Panasonic DVX-100a, however it is quite expensive at almost $3000. The type of camera I am looking for is something that I will be able to do a variety of shots, which include tracking shots and close-ups. I also need something rugged and durable since I plan on doing a lot of chase sequences. There will also be at least two scenes with dialogue. One scene will be a telephone conversation where both parties will be filmed separately and the other is a scene where one person is just talking. Ideally I would like to use the camera for sound and avoid using a boom or body mikes. Is that possible? I also want my short to have the look of film. I have read I would need a cinema filter however I have also heard you can implement a filter during postproduction. In terms of editing software I am looking at Avid Express Pro or Final Cut Pro. From what I understand Avid is the industry standard but it. However is it best to take a class or to just buy the program and learn by doing?. Is there any place in New York City where I can play with a demo version of these tools? Any suggestions would be helpful.

June 17th, 2008, 09:27 PM	#4
Edward Carlson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA, United States Posts: 807	I use a DVC30. I don't even attempt a film look, so I have no experience. I use FCP to edit and I love it. I took a class at school, but I have learned a lot just by using it.

June 18th, 2008, 06:48 AM	#5
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Hi Tim and welcome to DVinfo. I've moved your thread to our "open DV discussion" forum since the "neighborhood" forum is really just for introducing yourself. Have you played with the cameras at B&H? You can't really film anything, but you can get a feeling for what they're like. There are so many camera choices today that I would hesitate to recommend a specific model. But note that the DVX is an older model which only shoots standard definition. You might spend awhile browsing our camera forums to get some ideas: Other standard definition cameras: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=7 Inexpensive high definition cameras: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=132 If you want to play with Final Cut Pro, visit one of the Apple Stores in New York. They should have it installed on a machine there and let you get a feeling for it. Note that it is no longer sold as a stand-alone program though; you have to buy the full Production Suite. Yes, you can use software to acheive a "filmic look" after you shoot. You might start by visiting our forum on the topic here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=34 A good friend of mine took a two month crash-course in film making at New York Film Academy: http://www.nyfa.com/. When I visited her there it seemed like a nice place with helpful people and she really learned a lot. I believe they have all sorts of short courses which you can tailor to your schedule and needs. This isn't really a recommendation, but it might be worth looking into because you could get some hands-on experience with cameras and software there before buying. Good luck with your project and happy shopping!

June 18th, 2008, 08:03 PM	#7
Frank Simpson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bozeman, MT Posts: 217	Tim- The stand-alone application is just Final Cut Pro. The full production suite (which is the only way you can acquire FCP anymore) is FCP, Motion, LiveType, Soundtrack, DVD Studio Pro and Compressor; several applications, each with a specific focus and function. There is no PC version of Final Cut, it is a Mac only application. Meaning no disprespect, you seem to have some pretty high ideas about making a film, but without most of the necessary skills and knowledge to do so. Having a shop full of woodworking tools does not make one a carpenter, any more than having a lot of high-tech video hardware/software makes one a videographer. There are an awful lot of skills needed for good filmmaking. Effective camera operation, lighting, sound capture, video editing, audio editing, color correction, etc, etc, etc, etc.... If youtube is your only goal, your would most likely do just as well with iMovie (Mac), or Movie Maker (PC). They're actually quite nice applications. If you feel you need more "firepower" you might look at Adpbe Premiere Elements or Final Cut Express.

June 19th, 2008, 10:27 AM	#8
Bruce Foreman Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Angelo Texas Posts: 1,518	Look carefully at the limits on any older standard definition camera gear. Widescreen should be considered a MUST, nobody is buying 4:3 TV's anymore-the stores have nothing but widescreen sets unless they have old stock to unload. So if you go disc distribution in addition to youtube folks will be viewing your product on widescreen. Here is one approach to your dilemma: If budget is a consideration instead of the $3000 range you're looking at, consider the under $1000 range. The Canon HV20 or HV30 can be used in either hi definition or standard definition, has mic input and headphone jack (MUST features if you semi serious), manual override on exposure, mic input level control, manual focus and more all in a very compact and easily portable form factor. One inexpensive editor package that packs a LOT of BANG for the buck is Pinnacle Studio which does everything from capture to authoring DVD and also renders out to various file formats some of which can be uploaded to youtube. It comes in 3 levels: Basic (which I do not recommend but is workable), Plus (adds a second video track for easy overlays and cutaways), and Ultimate (comes with some dynamite extras). This package will handle hi def editing as well as standard def but be warned...HD editing begins to get into computer "horsepower" requirements. Learning by doing: Suggestions above in other posts are right on, but if you can't take a course or two due to budget or job schedule consider participating in the video "challenges" on this website. Everyone who has done so on a regular or semi regular basis has seen their skills grow a lot. This site's semi regular challenge is described as like "free film school" and some of the entries have been done with simple and sometimes "aging" gear.