Anyone use software waveform monitors?

Helen Bach · November 27th, 2003, 01:34 PM

Roger,

Keep asking questions and making observations like that please!

I'll go along with everything Martin has written, and add a still photography simile.

Look on it like this: are all your photographs printed with the exact same printer settings?

Sure, you can get away without tweaks in post. That would be like using slide film for projection only (not printing), and only having one emulsion available to you for all your different work, and not being able to bracket. Perfectly possible, and people do it.

Best,
Helen

Roger Berry · November 27th, 2003, 03:35 PM

Thanks for your encouragement Helen. Just been playing around with Vixen and you're right... It can do some brilliant things. Still feels like a post production bodge though; sorry if I'm being a stick in the mud.

Martin: I take all your points but I cling to the belief that when I get good enough at this stuff, I'll get the white balance and exposure right nearly every time and could shoot one clip at dawn and the next one at midday and they'll blend seemlessly.

Nicholi: I looked at that link but I don't own a Mac. Shame there's not a PC version.

Finally, Mike: When do you ever not need to get an image "perfect"? Sounds like the minimum starting point to me.

Helen Bach · November 27th, 2003, 10:38 PM

So Roger, just out of interest: is all your still printing done with the exact same printer settings? When I write 'all' I mean every print from every shoot.

Best,
Helen

Dave Largent · November 28th, 2003, 12:39 AM

Rob, or anyone. How are LCD screens for judging brightness and contrast? How about for judging white balance? Is it a big improvement over a camera's flip-out screen?

Mike Rehmus · November 28th, 2003, 12:31 PM

"Finally, Mike: When do you ever not need to get an image "perfect"? Sounds like the minimum starting point to me."

Certainly a perfect image is great to have. Just not very practical.

When you are chasing a cop who's chasing a suspect at night, it ain't gonna happen. Or when a child in a school play moves unexpectedly out of the spotlight, that one's not going to be too good but you have to use it.

Weddings are another event where one will rarely get perfect footage. The Videographer usually does not have complete control over lighting, window treatment, or dark receptions where no on-camera lighting is allowed. All of those situations almost insure one does not capture perfect footage.

ENG work is rarely about perfect footage. It's about getting footage at all and perfect comes second or third or maybe even fourth on the list of priorities.

Perfect is expensive. It suggests either a large crew to watch everything (a TV studio and crew comes to mind or a Hollywood movie) or one takes a long time to set up the shot. Shoot, (not to put too fine a point on it) even the talent effects whether it is a perfect shot or not.

Turns out that the story is the most important part of the image. Every time. Few of my clients can afford the cost of a perfect image. And it is really not necessary in most cases.

What I strive for is the best image and sound that is practical given the time and money available to do the job.

If I were to list the issues that matter in a finished piece, it would be something like this:

1 Story
2 Sound
3 Framing and focus
4 Color and exposure

Unfortunately, the priorities sometimes change and they are probably different for different videographers.

Truth is there is no such thing as Perfect. It cannot exist with the quality of the reproduction tools we use. Not even 70 mm film is perfect and DV is far from perfect. Just good enough.

Roger Berry · November 28th, 2003, 12:56 PM

Mike,

Sorry. You're right and I was bang out of order.

Thanks for your comments. Maybe one day I'll learn to put my brain in gear b4 I open my big mouth.

Regards,
Roger.

Mike Rehmus · November 28th, 2003, 09:18 PM

Roger,

Not to worry. Everyone wants perfection. It is just too costly for most applications.

I didn't take it like you think I did, I guess.

'sides, its my turn next time.

Best

Rob Lohman · December 2nd, 2003, 05:09 PM

Don't be sorry Roger. This board is all about seeing how others
do things and think about different possabilities. If you are making
fictional peaces you will have more time to setup your shots then
when yo do when shooting ENG style.

Then again I have found that in my run-and-gun style fictional
shooting with limited time, limited daylight and only so many
time I can use actors I have to shoot as fast as possible.

For me post productions tools are very much a must to use. Again,
it will be depedent on the type of shoot and what the DP / camera
operator is comfortable with.

November 27th, 2003, 03:35 PM	#17
Roger Berry Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Luton, England. Posts: 35	It's got to be, per_er_er_er_er_er_fect Thanks for your encouragement Helen. Just been playing around with Vixen and you're right... It can do some brilliant things. Still feels like a post production bodge though; sorry if I'm being a stick in the mud. Martin: I take all your points but I cling to the belief that when I get good enough at this stuff, I'll get the white balance and exposure right nearly every time and could shoot one clip at dawn and the next one at midday and they'll blend seemlessly. Nicholi: I looked at that link but I don't own a Mac. Shame there's not a PC version. Finally, Mike: When do you ever not need to get an image "perfect"? Sounds like the minimum starting point to me. __________________ Old men should rage and burn at close of day

November 28th, 2003, 12:31 PM	#20
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	"Finally, Mike: When do you ever not need to get an image "perfect"? Sounds like the minimum starting point to me." Certainly a perfect image is great to have. Just not very practical. When you are chasing a cop who's chasing a suspect at night, it ain't gonna happen. Or when a child in a school play moves unexpectedly out of the spotlight, that one's not going to be too good but you have to use it. Weddings are another event where one will rarely get perfect footage. The Videographer usually does not have complete control over lighting, window treatment, or dark receptions where no on-camera lighting is allowed. All of those situations almost insure one does not capture perfect footage. ENG work is rarely about perfect footage. It's about getting footage at all and perfect comes second or third or maybe even fourth on the list of priorities. Perfect is expensive. It suggests either a large crew to watch everything (a TV studio and crew comes to mind or a Hollywood movie) or one takes a long time to set up the shot. Shoot, (not to put too fine a point on it) even the talent effects whether it is a perfect shot or not. Turns out that the story is the most important part of the image. Every time. Few of my clients can afford the cost of a perfect image. And it is really not necessary in most cases. What I strive for is the best image and sound that is practical given the time and money available to do the job. If I were to list the issues that matter in a finished piece, it would be something like this: 1 Story 2 Sound 3 Framing and focus 4 Color and exposure Unfortunately, the priorities sometimes change and they are probably different for different videographers. Truth is there is no such thing as Perfect. It cannot exist with the quality of the reproduction tools we use. Not even 70 mm film is perfect and DV is far from perfect. Just good enough. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

November 28th, 2003, 12:56 PM	#21
Roger Berry Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Luton, England. Posts: 35	Roger Berry Mike, Sorry. You're right and I was bang out of order. Thanks for your comments. Maybe one day I'll learn to put my brain in gear b4 I open my big mouth. Regards, Roger. __________________ Old men should rage and burn at close of day

November 28th, 2003, 09:18 PM	#22
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Roger, Not to worry. Everyone wants perfection. It is just too costly for most applications. I didn't take it like you think I did, I guess. 'sides, its my turn next time. Best __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

December 2nd, 2003, 05:09 PM	#23
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Don't be sorry Roger. This board is all about seeing how others do things and think about different possabilities. If you are making fictional peaces you will have more time to setup your shots then when yo do when shooting ENG style. Then again I have found that in my run-and-gun style fictional shooting with limited time, limited daylight and only so many time I can use actors I have to shoot as fast as possible. For me post productions tools are very much a must to use. Again, it will be depedent on the type of shoot and what the DP / camera operator is comfortable with. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

November 27th, 2003, 01:34 PM	#16
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	Roger, Keep asking questions and making observations like that please! I'll go along with everything Martin has written, and add a still photography simile. Look on it like this: are all your photographs printed with the exact same printer settings? Sure, you can get away without tweaks in post. That would be like using slide film for projection only (not printing), and only having one emulsion available to you for all your different work, and not being able to bracket. Perfectly possible, and people do it. Best, Helen

November 27th, 2003, 10:38 PM	#18
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	So Roger, just out of interest: is all your still printing done with the exact same printer settings? When I write 'all' I mean every print from every shoot. Best, Helen

November 28th, 2003, 12:39 AM	#19
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	Rob, or anyone. How are LCD screens for judging brightness and contrast? How about for judging white balance? Is it a big improvement over a camera's flip-out screen?