DV comparisons over the web at DVinfo.net

Riley Harmon · December 13th, 2003, 11:04 PM

does anyone on this board have about a 5-10 sec FULL DV QUALITY video from the following cameras or is willing to shoot and post some that I can use to see what I think of video quality, b/c some of these cameras are not available at some stores to just hook up to their tv's, and please dont link me to the jap. sites with stills, i've been to all of em, i'd really really appreciate this, thanks

PV-DV953
GL2
Optura XI
TRV950
TRV70

Frank Granovski · December 14th, 2003, 03:08 AM

The 3 chip cams from your list will have better looking footage than from these two 1 chip cams. The footage from these 3 chip cams are all very good. The 950 and 953 will have sharper footage than the GL2, but the GL2 will perform better in "lower light." I don't think anyone can or will provide you with a "test tape" of footage from all those cams; but you could go out to some stores and do it yourself. Just bring along a miniDV tape.

Chris Hurd · December 14th, 2003, 10:12 AM

When you're talking about posting video clips, there are many variables invloved that will get in the way of what you're wanting to see. These variables include what editing system was used to capture the DV into the computer in the first place, which DV CODEC is used in the capture process, what sort of encoding process is used to get the video to the web. Finally, if you're looking at that video on your computer monitor, then you're not seeing it properly due to the difference in gamma characteristics between computer monitors and televisions.

I suppose the proper way to do this would be to construct a demo tape, and lay it down to VHS only (and not DVD, to keep people from trying to look at it on a computer screen).

Steve Nunez · December 14th, 2003, 10:46 AM

Chris,

after having read your last comment, a question has arisen. Do you mean to say that depending on which codec is used to capture the dv footage it will differ in final quality? Wouldn't this mean the footage is being re-compressed in some way? I thought DV was a lossless format beside the intial "in-camera" compression that takes place upon tape recording?

Or do you mean codec as the method of getting the NTSC type footage playable on a computer monitor- and in that regard differing NLE's may use different methods for this process upon dv capture.

I understand the compression process and understand it's quality tradeoffs- but wouldn't original dv captures maintain the intial recorded quality regardless of capture process?

Would this explain the .dv file size when using iMovie being double the size of the same clip if captured using FCP?

(PS- the data rate is also double-...the mov's FCP makes are half the size of iMovie caps using .dv)

Chris Hurd · December 14th, 2003, 01:24 PM

Hi Steve, I was referring to the process involved upon DV capture. For instance, Canopus has a very clean codec (there was a time when Avid liked it so much, they licensed it from Canopus). Not all codecs are created equally.

My basic point is that once DV is in the computer (as it must be in order to send over the web), then it ceases to be "raw DV." Instead, it's a Quicktime or AVI file and there are too many variables involved and too many end-user viewing variables to insure that everyone is seeing the same thing.

And, the big difference among the camcorder models being asked about isn't the image quality but the ergonomics, form factor, controls layout and feature sets.

Finally, single-chip camcorders equipped with an RGB primary color filter such as the Optura Xi will approach the three-chip look. Speaking only in terms of color reproduction, there's bigger difference between a 1CCD cam with a primary color filter compared to a 1CCD cam with a complimentary color filter, than there is between a 3CCD cam compared to a 1CCD cam with a primary color filter.

Glenn Chan · December 14th, 2003, 06:02 PM

iMovie captured files are slightly smaller than FCP captured files. iMovie doesn't retain the timecode and/or user bits on the DV tape.

When you capture DV into your computer, the program you capture in doesn't recompress the DV footage. You should be able to transfer DV footage losslessly over the internet (but you are limited by bandwidth).

When playing DV footage back, different DV codecs will decompress the footage differently. But you should by able to lay DV footage onto DV tape and get the same thing no matter how you capture it (at least picture wise and assuming you don't get dropouts).

Ben Wiens · December 18th, 2003, 11:57 AM

Chris, very interesting about RGB type camcorders. But I couldn't locate which type my 1 CCD Panasonic PV-DV852 uses. Anyone know?

December 13th, 2003, 11:04 PM	#1
Riley Harmon Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 424	can someone do me a favor.... does anyone on this board have about a 5-10 sec FULL DV QUALITY video from the following cameras or is willing to shoot and post some that I can use to see what I think of video quality, b/c some of these cameras are not available at some stores to just hook up to their tv's, and please dont link me to the jap. sites with stills, i've been to all of em, i'd really really appreciate this, thanks PV-DV953 GL2 Optura XI TRV950 TRV70

December 14th, 2003, 10:12 AM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	When you're talking about posting video clips, there are many variables invloved that will get in the way of what you're wanting to see. These variables include what editing system was used to capture the DV into the computer in the first place, which DV CODEC is used in the capture process, what sort of encoding process is used to get the video to the web. Finally, if you're looking at that video on your computer monitor, then you're not seeing it properly due to the difference in gamma characteristics between computer monitors and televisions. I suppose the proper way to do this would be to construct a demo tape, and lay it down to VHS only (and not DVD, to keep people from trying to look at it on a computer screen). __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 14th, 2003, 10:46 AM	#4
Steve Nunez Trustee Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida Posts: 1,418	Chris, after having read your last comment, a question has arisen. Do you mean to say that depending on which codec is used to capture the dv footage it will differ in final quality? Wouldn't this mean the footage is being re-compressed in some way? I thought DV was a lossless format beside the intial "in-camera" compression that takes place upon tape recording? Or do you mean codec as the method of getting the NTSC type footage playable on a computer monitor- and in that regard differing NLE's may use different methods for this process upon dv capture. I understand the compression process and understand it's quality tradeoffs- but wouldn't original dv captures maintain the intial recorded quality regardless of capture process? Would this explain the .dv file size when using iMovie being double the size of the same clip if captured using FCP? (PS- the data rate is also double-...the mov's FCP makes are half the size of iMovie caps using .dv) __________________ Steve Nunez-New York City www.stevenunez.com

December 14th, 2003, 01:24 PM	#5
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Hi Steve, I was referring to the process involved upon DV capture. For instance, Canopus has a very clean codec (there was a time when Avid liked it so much, they licensed it from Canopus). Not all codecs are created equally. My basic point is that once DV is in the computer (as it must be in order to send over the web), then it ceases to be "raw DV." Instead, it's a Quicktime or AVI file and there are too many variables involved and too many end-user viewing variables to insure that everyone is seeing the same thing. And, the big difference among the camcorder models being asked about isn't the image quality but the ergonomics, form factor, controls layout and feature sets. Finally, single-chip camcorders equipped with an RGB primary color filter such as the Optura Xi will approach the three-chip look. Speaking only in terms of color reproduction, there's bigger difference between a 1CCD cam with a primary color filter compared to a 1CCD cam with a complimentary color filter, than there is between a 3CCD cam compared to a 1CCD cam with a primary color filter. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 18th, 2003, 11:57 AM	#7
Ben Wiens Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 56	RGB primary color filter Chris, very interesting about RGB type camcorders. But I couldn't locate which type my 1 CCD Panasonic PV-DV852 uses. Anyone know?

December 14th, 2003, 03:08 AM	#2
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	The 3 chip cams from your list will have better looking footage than from these two 1 chip cams. The footage from these 3 chip cams are all very good. The 950 and 953 will have sharper footage than the GL2, but the GL2 will perform better in "lower light." I don't think anyone can or will provide you with a "test tape" of footage from all those cams; but you could go out to some stores and do it yourself. Just bring along a miniDV tape.

December 14th, 2003, 06:02 PM	#6
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	iMovie captured files are slightly smaller than FCP captured files. iMovie doesn't retain the timecode and/or user bits on the DV tape. When you capture DV into your computer, the program you capture in doesn't recompress the DV footage. You should be able to transfer DV footage losslessly over the internet (but you are limited by bandwidth). When playing DV footage back, different DV codecs will decompress the footage differently. But you should by able to lay DV footage onto DV tape and get the same thing no matter how you capture it (at least picture wise and assuming you don't get dropouts).