Super 8 film to DV transfer (telecine)
 

Hi everyone,

I'd like to have my dad's old Super 8 family home movies from the 1950s and 1960s transferred to DV for a Christmas present for him. I could do it myself with my projector and my DV camera, but I'd like a bit more of a professional telecine, I think. Can anyone make any recommendations for good transfer houses? Especially, if anyone knows of one in Ohio... Thanks...

I'm not sure of the level of quality your after, but I have a suggestion. My oldest brother, Lew, manages the downtown Dodd's Camera (at least I think he still manages it-haven't talked to him about his job in some time). If Dodd's doesn't offer the level of service your after, he may have a few suggestions that could help. That's my only Cleveland contact.

My old production company, post house, used to do telecine and a lower level transfer to tape that the UC students used to use. I sold my interest in '96 and I can't vouch for the quality of their work any more. However, I still have many friends in the Cincinnati area that are in the industry and I would be happy to make a few contacts if you'd like.

Jeff

You say the film is from the fifties and sixties... if so then it is probably REGULAR 8, Not SUPER 8. Super 8 as a format didn't really hit its stide till the seventies... just in time to be overwhelmed by video!

Telling a lab you have super 8 when you really have regular 8 might result in problems, best to ask if they can transfer both.

Regards

Bill Angstrom

(Who ocasionally still shoots super 8)

8 mm film
 

HI

I working right now with old 8mm film from germany 1951-to 1971.
My father have a 8mm/super 8 mascine from 1970.What I do and this work fine.Remember that the quality from 8mm is not so good as video.
I lett a white A3 paper in front of the 8mm mascine ca 1 meter.besides I have canon XM1 dv video recorder.Now for test I start 8mm adjust the picture.Then I start record on DV and look at the LCD.Now I have a little flikker between the 24 and 25Hz picture diff. Adjust the motor-speed on 8mm mascin to be the same (25) pic pr second.Now I get a very,very nice copy on my DV without inteferencies. I hope you could adjust the motor-speed on your 8mm. Good luck

to per christiansen
 

To your information : the quality of super 8 is way better than the quality of the most expensive video equipment !!!!!

Is this a "wild statement" or did you think on it before posting. What is quality for you?

Old home movies (8mm and Super 8mm) were for the largest part shot on consumer cameras. They lacked good quality optics, film flatness was a problem and the transport was not precisely locked. Consumer processing was also not very good and many of the early S-8mm show leuco cyan dye failure. This is not to say that professionally produced S-8mm does not rival broadcast video. Only that the vast majority of 8mm and S-8mm was produced by consumers and is of fairly low quality.

Jeff

super-8/8mm
 

Okey,I have 325 rolls of film ca 30-45 minutes each,from 8mm taken from a camera my father have in this years 1944-1965 then he go for super-8 later. I have just found this films from this time and looking few scenes right now.This must be 8mm. I am shure it is super-8 to here,so I hope the quality could be better on s-8.He made some scenes to in 16mm film but I have no mascine to ply this right now.All is color.Some 3min rolls is not clipped and marked from 1945. I think this is from the end of war 8mai,when the king arrived back from england. The quality is not perfect I think.All the films stay in metal-boxes with weapon oil-paper covered it.Some degreations could be taken over this years.Interesting to hear that super-8 could be better than DV video.

regard per

Per Christianson...

Shooting your 24fps Super 8 at 25fps PAl is great...

But frankly, most super 8 film was shot in 18fps in the US, until "sound" came into use. (Which WAS shot at 24fps).

For those at home trying a poor-man's telecine, you will need a projector with a variable speed motor. The idea is to speed the film up to about 20fps. The shutter in most projectors has three "blades" resulting in 60 "Flicks" a second--- which works out pretty well with 60i... so almost no flicker.

(Telecine projectors will have five or seven blades, AND a variable speed motor, and quite often an analogue video scanner as well... VERY pricey)

Regarding the QUALITY of super 8 vs Video... well, "Garbage in=Garbage out" no matter the format or technology. But as a reference, I recently transfered some footage for a friend, shot in 1972 on KODACHROME.

My God, the colors were breathtaking! The outdoor shots were AMAZING! Compare this to some video I shot with my first RCA camcorder back in '79... and the image SUCKED! Not only that, but the tape, though stored in a cool dry place, did not hold up as well as the film footage shot at the same time. I still shoot Super 8 for some projects, to get that "film look" at a low price. I shoot with a very nice Elmo sound camera or my old Nizo (which doesn't run as well). Good glass is important no matter what you shoot with. If you think super 8 is dead or dying... log on to Ebay and watch the prices for the nice cameras like the Bolex's, Cannon's or the Nizo's or Beaulieu go for up to 700 - 800 dollars. (Keep in mind, these cameras are often twenty five years old)

Bill

Kodachrome is a different beast all together and has a different dye strucure etc. Take a look at any early Ectachrome and you'll see what I mean. The majority of the S-8mm was shot on low quality Bell & Howell, Kodak and various low end Japanese cameras. Yes, the Bolex and Beaulieu cameras produced professional results then and today. But they are in the vast minority. The only reason I keep stressing the poor results most people will get, is not to build false hope that their old home movies will be better than their digital video.

Jeff

Jeff, I recently picked up some 8mm cameras.
1 Beaulieu, 1 keystone with a cmount telephoto lense that
will also attach to the Beaulieu. The Beaulieu also came with a
nice wide angle lense. Both of these seem to be for Kodachrome, but not super8.
1 Kodak xl350 with 2 unused rolls of ectachrome super8 film.
The Kodak is battery operated, almost video like with a
T and W button and some nice automated features. Looks like
they were trying to compete with early video cameras with this
one. I got all these for less than $50.00 total. I'm going to try
to get the Kodak working. It has a nice wide angle lense with
manual adjustment.
Do you know where to get ectachrome super8 film? or any super8 stock?

Thanks in advance

Joe Carney

B & H Photo sells movie film http://www03.bhphotovideo.com/default.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=CatalogActivator__Acatalog_html___CatID=341___SID=F1076BEE2C0 I saw several S-8mm types inclusing B & W film.

Jeff

You can buy film stock direct from Kodak. (Search for their web page) Cheaper in bulk, and cheaper if your are a student.

There are some really good Super 8 web pages out there, full of links for sources, explore.

A bit of warning... Super 8 can be addictive. And like most drugs, pretty expensive. Figure a final cost of 10 dollars a minute of film. Pricey compared to video. But there is something fun about working with film. I like to use Super 8 to teach kids the discipline of film-making.

"Here's your roll of film. It will last about three minutes. (18fps) PLAN what to shoot ahead of time. Rehearse the scene. Check the lights. Check the meter. Check the focus. (Use a tape measure for greater accuracy) Rehearse the scene and camera movements. Then "Action". Suddenly, when they hear the film running through the camera it seems more "real".

Then we dump the results onto tape, edit on a computer, then CUT THE ORIGINAL FILMSTOCK together.

Just like the big boys.

Just my experience though.

bill, thanks a lot.
I just cleaned up and got working a Sankyo with
automated/manual zoom. I also happened to get my hands
on some very old ektacrome that came with another super8 camera I picked up.

My question, is there any 8mm cartrige available (as opposed to super 8, it seems all the sites talk about super 8). I also have a pretty cool spring operated Keystone k-40 that will overcrank to 60fps and has a nice telephoto cmount lense. Hate to think it can't be used. All I could find so far was references to super8 which has a different form factor.

There was no regular 8mm cartridge. The box that 8mm film came in called it Double 8mm Film. It was actually a type of 16mm film on spools, 25 ft long. You threaded the film in the camera and shot 25 feet. Then you flip in over and shoot the other 25 feet. The film was processed and then slit down the length and spliced together on a 50 foot reel.

People found Regular 8mm difficult to load, noisy and they wanted sound. Kodak invented Super 8mm and stuck it in the cartridge for easy loading and more precise handling for the sound requirements. Super 8mm also got smaller sprocket holes for quieter and more precise transport.

I think Kodak discontinued R-8mm a few years ago, but I may be wrong. You had a choice of B & W and Kodachrome. Be very careful with the spring operated camera. Those springs can be under a lot of pressure and are very dangerous. I wouldn't take it apart. It's not worth the risk.

Jeff

Double 8 film is still available. Again, search out the super 8 sites, there are some good links to suppliers. I think Yale Labs in LA, and Super 8 Sound in Burbank will process it, but again, do your own research.

I own two Sankyo's that are really nice. They seem to be very solid and consistent in operation.

Ebay is a good place to look for old Super 8 equipment, but as always, it's a bit of a dice roll. Most of my super 8 gear was bought by rummaging through garage sales, yard sales and "Thrift Stores". The most I ever spent for a camera was 35 dollars. (For the Nizo). I bought several cameras that didn't work, for a couple of dollars. Cleaned the battery contacts, and they were just fine. I bought a Bauer for $10, sold it to a film school for 120 dollars.

The only people making NEW super 8 cameras right now, are the Russians.

Super 8 Sound in Burbank, sells NEGATIVE stock, and will process and dub to tape for you. I think they offer different tape formats, so you can then pull it into your NLE and cut away!

Regards,

Bill

Once again thanks Bill, untill last post, I didn't realize it was called double 8. Thats why I didn't find anything.

Are the Russians selling their cams at a decent price? My handy little Sankyo only does 18fps as far as I can tell (it's either a 250 or 255, don't know for sure).
I would like to get one that does 24 or higher (powered). I don't plan on using 8mm as my main format, more for specialized shots/scenes to fit into my mainly shot on DV stuff. But you are right, it is addictive. I noticed the super8 stock from Kodak was that expensive. and the development cost from Pro8mm weren't too bad considering what they did.

I've heard up in Buffalo N.Y. They have a super8 five minute film festival. I also heard everyone processes their own film. Also heard about something similar in Athens Ga.

Once again, thanks very much for taking the time to answer.

Joe C.

Kodachrome (K-14 process) is not a user processable film. To the best of my knowledge the only color Double 8 is Kodachrome. The Echtachrome S-8mm films (E-6 process) could be processed at home but with great difficulty and expense. E-6 chemistry is sold in fairly large working solution quantities. The chemistry, once mixed goes bad fairly quickly. That means you either have to shoot a lot of S-8mm (expensive) or batch process your film (process 10 to 15 rolls at a time) so the chemistry doesn't go bad.

The point is home processing is not a money or time saving venture. It's a hobby. Are you looking for or have the time for another hobby?

Jeff

Jeff, sorry, I was just sort of wondering out load so to speak.
I have no desire to develop film at home. Just thought it is interesting what they were doing up in Buffalo. The place is economically depressed and it's great they have these creative outlets.

No, problem. I've done E-6 processing. No fun in my opinion. I have better ways to spend my Friday nights. But all too often I see people thinking that doing it themselves will save money. No way. Most people end up pouring the old chemistry down the drain. Big waste of money.

Jeff

Jeff, I noticed your only a few hours north of me. Any chance you use VV3 or other SoFo stuff? There are a few of us getting together at the end of the month in Orlando to discuss ideas about a feature.

super 8 hand processing isnt usually done with optimal picture integrity in mind...i've been doing a lot of handprocessing of tri-x and plus-x...solely for artistic reasons...taking all that film and stuffing it like spaghetti into a small processing tank gives some disgustingly beautiful artifacts =)

hand processing is pretty damn fun (that is, if your a crazy film/video/artist geek and don't have a girlfriend because you spend most of your time at your computer, in a dark room, or at a camera store, like me).

I didn't say hand processing is no fun. I like B & W processing. Color processing is very precise. The first temperature is +/- 2/10 of a degree F. None of the 68, 72 etc. just adjust the times. You screw up the temp your film is ruined.

Jeff

Funny to be talking about a 25year old film technology on a DV board... but in a way, I guess it does belong.

Especially when you integrate the two. Copying the footage to DV or directly to the computer. Editing with an NLE and then conforming.

Yes, may people are surprised at the viability and the expense of super 8. There are many "film festivals" that feature Super 8 only. DO a Search for "FLICKER" - it's a travelling super 8 film festival that happens if various major cities. ANd most of the people I know who do hand processing, do it for the "artifacts" that arise out of the flawed process. Nobody I know, does it to save on the cost of accurate procesing.

Their is only one lab in the US that processes Kodachrome. That is DWAYNES, in Kansas I think. Kodak sends it's Kodachrome to Switzerland for processing.

Frankly, if I were KODAK, I would be GIVING AWAY super 8 film. If the indies and students of today, are going to be the Pros of tomorrow, then you would want them to experience the "Shoot on film, edit on tape, and either conform the negative or convert the dv to film" workflow. I think they are already looking over their shoulder as more pros save money by shooting HD...

But nobody died and made me King of Kodak.

The Russion SUper 8 cameras are pretty solid, very basic machines. (They are SPRING wound).

>>The Russion SUper 8 cameras are pretty solid, very basic machines. (They are SPRING wound).
<<
Bill, are they affordable? Spring just means you never need to bring batteries to a remote shoot, hehehe.

Spring wound cameras can be a pain. They can speed up and slow down, so that the frames per second speeds and slows down. No fun in post. Fun to play with just don't expect pro results. Super 8mm is celebrating it's 40th birthday this year I believe.

Jeff

Jeff, point taken. Once I get the stuff transferred to tape, than I can adjust the speed with Vegas Video. Not a problem.
It's one of Vegas Videos' strengths.

Jeff is right about the spring drive, to a certain extent, they do compensate for the speed change... just like an expensive clock. (Besides, the same thing can happen with the battery operated models... the cheap ones anyway.)

As to the "birthday" of Super 8,


"In May 1965, super 8 in its stubby, coaxial plastic cartridge arrived loaded with Type A indoor balanced Kodachrome II, billed as a universal film." .... "The next stroke for super 8 was a total systems approach by Eastman to the challenge of filming movies in low light level doing away with hot and bright movie lights. The XL (existing light) concept was introduced in 1972: this included the new fast Ektachrome 160 film and cameras with fast lenses and broad shtter angles for making the most of dim light."
THE SUPER 8 BOOK by
Lenny Lipton

Super 8 hit it's peak in the consumer market in the mid seventies. Most of the used cameras you find today, are from that era. I have a library of back issues of "Super 8 Filmmaker" that are really interesting to read. Expecially when they start arguing about how the new, video cameras are too expensive, too bulky, and WILL NEVER replace Super 8! They do, however, talk about using the video to tape transfers, for editing purposes!
Bill

Who remembers Polaroid, Polavision, instant home movies?

Jeff

So, we have to wait a few years for that big 40th birthday party. Darn!

Jeff,

"Instant Movies" were the holy grail of the super 8 community... and they were darn close to mastering it when affordable video showed up. Reading the reviews of Polavision in the old Super 8 magazines is really informative. It helps keep everything in perspective, when I read the Hyperbole around HD and DV... It's always great to read what "The future will be" in magazines that are 25 years old.

Here's a good look at an excerpt from the editorial in Super8FIlmmaker Jan/Feb 1979 -

"In a country where more households have TV sets than indoor toilets, home VCRs with their ability to record shows off the air for later playback, are one of the hottest things going. In a recent TV Guide article, (Oct 28,1978) David Lachenbruch claims "home tapies" (his phrase) will shortly replace "Home movies". HE clearly puts Super-8 on the endagered species list. Is Super 8 going the way of the bald eagle?

This is another draft of the tiresome video-versus-film scenario, and it's a lot of bunk. Remember when the introduction of cassette sound tape was going to make the phonograph obsolete? Pessimistic oracles of the film industry should take their lens caps off. ... Those who debate which medium is better or which will survive in the marketplace are suffering from narrow, competetive thinking. THe great advantage of these two communications tools is that they can work together, extending the capabilitites of both.... It's a marriage of media we call "SuperVideo"....

--

Wow, what a dose of perspective twenty two years later. Cassettes DID make phonographs obsolete.... and were in turn replaced by CD's, a format no one could imagine.... BUT phonographs, turntables, and DJ's are still a part of the music scene... Just like super 8 is still a "retro" form of art for many filmmakers.

But really now.... "SuperVideo" - "Home Tapies" ???? (shudder)

>>Who remembers Polaroid, Polavision, instant home movies?
<<
Oh crap, I do. My very first camera as a Poloroid instamatic. Darn I hate being old to know about that stuff. I even remember the very first black and white VHS video camera we got in high school. We all took turns making our own 'TV' shows with it. Thought it was just way high tech and too cool. No one I knew could afford one at the time either (early 70s).

To follow up...
 

I ended up taking my 8 mm film--26 reels of old family home movies from the 1930s to the 1950s--to Dodd Camera in Cleveland, where "Elizabeth" performs the film transfers for $1.50/minute plus a $10 flat fee. Their transfer machine's CCD only has a resolution of 240 lines. To perform transfers to MiniDV rather than VHS, a DV deck is connected by analog cables to the output of the transfer machine. I had hoped to find a higher resolution transfer, but this is fairly cheap.

Some of the footage was the developed double-8 mm film that came in rolls of 25 feet as someone mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.

If the markings on the boxes are correct, some of this footage is from my great grandmother's vacation to Berlin in September 1938. I've never seen any of this footage, but I know that my grandfather took a still photograph of Adolf Hilter leaning out of a window on that vacation.

Sounds like you got about what you paid for. It will work for home viewing, and general archival purposes. The more expensive telecine transfers offered out there, are nice for doing "film to video" commercial work.