Super 8 film to DV transfer (telecine) at DVinfo.net

Robert Knecht Schmidt · October 5th, 2002, 11:50 AM

Hi everyone,

I'd like to have my dad's old Super 8 family home movies from the 1950s and 1960s transferred to DV for a Christmas present for him. I could do it myself with my projector and my DV camera, but I'd like a bit more of a professional telecine, I think. Can anyone make any recommendations for good transfer houses? Especially, if anyone knows of one in Ohio... Thanks...

Jeff Donald · October 5th, 2002, 01:39 PM

I'm not sure of the level of quality your after, but I have a suggestion. My oldest brother, Lew, manages the downtown Dodd's Camera (at least I think he still manages it-haven't talked to him about his job in some time). If Dodd's doesn't offer the level of service your after, he may have a few suggestions that could help. That's my only Cleveland contact.

My old production company, post house, used to do telecine and a lower level transfer to tape that the UC students used to use. I sold my interest in '96 and I can't vouch for the quality of their work any more. However, I still have many friends in the Cincinnati area that are in the industry and I would be happy to make a few contacts if you'd like.

Jeff

Richard Alvarez · October 6th, 2002, 11:44 AM

You say the film is from the fifties and sixties... if so then it is probably REGULAR 8, Not SUPER 8. Super 8 as a format didn't really hit its stide till the seventies... just in time to be overwhelmed by video!

Telling a lab you have super 8 when you really have regular 8 might result in problems, best to ask if they can transfer both.

Regards

Bill Angstrom

(Who ocasionally still shoots super 8)

October 9th, 2002, 02:33 AM

HI

I working right now with old 8mm film from germany 1951-to 1971.
My father have a 8mm/super 8 mascine from 1970.What I do and this work fine.Remember that the quality from 8mm is not so good as video.
I lett a white A3 paper in front of the 8mm mascine ca 1 meter.besides I have canon XM1 dv video recorder.Now for test I start 8mm adjust the picture.Then I start record on DV and look at the LCD.Now I have a little flikker between the 24 and 25Hz picture diff. Adjust the motor-speed on 8mm mascin to be the same (25) pic pr second.Now I get a very,very nice copy on my DV without inteferencies. I hope you could adjust the motor-speed on your 8mm. Good luck

Hans Kuipers · October 9th, 2002, 07:28 AM

To your information : the quality of super 8 is way better than the quality of the most expensive video equipment !!!!!

Andre De Clercq · October 9th, 2002, 07:51 AM

Is this a "wild statement" or did you think on it before posting. What is quality for you?

Jeff Donald · October 9th, 2002, 07:59 AM

Old home movies (8mm and Super 8mm) were for the largest part shot on consumer cameras. They lacked good quality optics, film flatness was a problem and the transport was not precisely locked. Consumer processing was also not very good and many of the early S-8mm show leuco cyan dye failure. This is not to say that professionally produced S-8mm does not rival broadcast video. Only that the vast majority of 8mm and S-8mm was produced by consumers and is of fairly low quality.

Jeff

October 9th, 2002, 08:37 AM

Okey,I have 325 rolls of film ca 30-45 minutes each,from 8mm taken from a camera my father have in this years 1944-1965 then he go for super-8 later. I have just found this films from this time and looking few scenes right now.This must be 8mm. I am shure it is super-8 to here,so I hope the quality could be better on s-8.He made some scenes to in 16mm film but I have no mascine to ply this right now.All is color.Some 3min rolls is not clipped and marked from 1945. I think this is from the end of war 8mai,when the king arrived back from england. The quality is not perfect I think.All the films stay in metal-boxes with weapon oil-paper covered it.Some degreations could be taken over this years.Interesting to hear that super-8 could be better than DV video.

regard per

Richard Alvarez · October 9th, 2002, 10:23 AM

Per Christianson...

Shooting your 24fps Super 8 at 25fps PAl is great...

But frankly, most super 8 film was shot in 18fps in the US, until "sound" came into use. (Which WAS shot at 24fps).

For those at home trying a poor-man's telecine, you will need a projector with a variable speed motor. The idea is to speed the film up to about 20fps. The shutter in most projectors has three "blades" resulting in 60 "Flicks" a second--- which works out pretty well with 60i... so almost no flicker.

(Telecine projectors will have five or seven blades, AND a variable speed motor, and quite often an analogue video scanner as well... VERY pricey)

Regarding the QUALITY of super 8 vs Video... well, "Garbage in=Garbage out" no matter the format or technology. But as a reference, I recently transfered some footage for a friend, shot in 1972 on KODACHROME.

My God, the colors were breathtaking! The outdoor shots were AMAZING! Compare this to some video I shot with my first RCA camcorder back in '79... and the image SUCKED! Not only that, but the tape, though stored in a cool dry place, did not hold up as well as the film footage shot at the same time. I still shoot Super 8 for some projects, to get that "film look" at a low price. I shoot with a very nice Elmo sound camera or my old Nizo (which doesn't run as well). Good glass is important no matter what you shoot with. If you think super 8 is dead or dying... log on to Ebay and watch the prices for the nice cameras like the Bolex's, Cannon's or the Nizo's or Beaulieu go for up to 700 - 800 dollars. (Keep in mind, these cameras are often twenty five years old)

Bill

Jeff Donald · October 9th, 2002, 10:44 AM

Kodachrome is a different beast all together and has a different dye strucure etc. Take a look at any early Ectachrome and you'll see what I mean. The majority of the S-8mm was shot on low quality Bell & Howell, Kodak and various low end Japanese cameras. Yes, the Bolex and Beaulieu cameras produced professional results then and today. But they are in the vast minority. The only reason I keep stressing the poor results most people will get, is not to build false hope that their old home movies will be better than their digital video.

Jeff

Joe Carney · October 10th, 2002, 08:58 AM

Jeff, I recently picked up some 8mm cameras.
1 Beaulieu, 1 keystone with a cmount telephoto lense that
will also attach to the Beaulieu. The Beaulieu also came with a
nice wide angle lense. Both of these seem to be for Kodachrome, but not super8.
1 Kodak xl350 with 2 unused rolls of ectachrome super8 film.
The Kodak is battery operated, almost video like with a
T and W button and some nice automated features. Looks like
they were trying to compete with early video cameras with this
one. I got all these for less than $50.00 total. I'm going to try
to get the Kodak working. It has a nice wide angle lense with
manual adjustment.
Do you know where to get ectachrome super8 film? or any super8 stock?

Thanks in advance

Joe Carney

Jeff Donald · October 10th, 2002, 11:10 AM

B & H Photo sells movie film http://www03.bhphotovideo.com/default.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=CatalogActivator__Acatalog_html___CatID=341___SID=F1076BEE2C0 I saw several S-8mm types inclusing B & W film.

Jeff

Richard Alvarez · October 11th, 2002, 10:04 AM

You can buy film stock direct from Kodak. (Search for their web page) Cheaper in bulk, and cheaper if your are a student.

There are some really good Super 8 web pages out there, full of links for sources, explore.

A bit of warning... Super 8 can be addictive. And like most drugs, pretty expensive. Figure a final cost of 10 dollars a minute of film. Pricey compared to video. But there is something fun about working with film. I like to use Super 8 to teach kids the discipline of film-making.

"Here's your roll of film. It will last about three minutes. (18fps) PLAN what to shoot ahead of time. Rehearse the scene. Check the lights. Check the meter. Check the focus. (Use a tape measure for greater accuracy) Rehearse the scene and camera movements. Then "Action". Suddenly, when they hear the film running through the camera it seems more "real".

Then we dump the results onto tape, edit on a computer, then CUT THE ORIGINAL FILMSTOCK together.

Just like the big boys.

Just my experience though.

Joe Carney · October 11th, 2002, 11:05 AM

bill, thanks a lot.
I just cleaned up and got working a Sankyo with
automated/manual zoom. I also happened to get my hands
on some very old ektacrome that came with another super8 camera I picked up.

My question, is there any 8mm cartrige available (as opposed to super 8, it seems all the sites talk about super 8). I also have a pretty cool spring operated Keystone k-40 that will overcrank to 60fps and has a nice telephoto cmount lense. Hate to think it can't be used. All I could find so far was references to super8 which has a different form factor.

Jeff Donald · October 11th, 2002, 12:08 PM

There was no regular 8mm cartridge. The box that 8mm film came in called it Double 8mm Film. It was actually a type of 16mm film on spools, 25 ft long. You threaded the film in the camera and shot 25 feet. Then you flip in over and shoot the other 25 feet. The film was processed and then slit down the length and spliced together on a 50 foot reel.

People found Regular 8mm difficult to load, noisy and they wanted sound. Kodak invented Super 8mm and stuck it in the cartridge for easy loading and more precise handling for the sound requirements. Super 8mm also got smaller sprocket holes for quieter and more precise transport.

I think Kodak discontinued R-8mm a few years ago, but I may be wrong. You had a choice of B & W and Kodachrome. Be very careful with the spring operated camera. Those springs can be under a lot of pressure and are very dangerous. I wouldn't take it apart. It's not worth the risk.

Jeff

October 5th, 2002, 11:50 AM	#1
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	Super 8 film to DV transfer (telecine) Hi everyone, I'd like to have my dad's old Super 8 family home movies from the 1950s and 1960s transferred to DV for a Christmas present for him. I could do it myself with my projector and my DV camera, but I'd like a bit more of a professional telecine, I think. Can anyone make any recommendations for good transfer houses? Especially, if anyone knows of one in Ohio... Thanks... __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 9th, 2002, 02:33 AM	#4
per christiansen Posts: n/a	8 mm film HI I working right now with old 8mm film from germany 1951-to 1971. My father have a 8mm/super 8 mascine from 1970.What I do and this work fine.Remember that the quality from 8mm is not so good as video. I lett a white A3 paper in front of the 8mm mascine ca 1 meter.besides I have canon XM1 dv video recorder.Now for test I start 8mm adjust the picture.Then I start record on DV and look at the LCD.Now I have a little flikker between the 24 and 25Hz picture diff. Adjust the motor-speed on 8mm mascin to be the same (25) pic pr second.Now I get a very,very nice copy on my DV without inteferencies. I hope you could adjust the motor-speed on your 8mm. Good luck

October 9th, 2002, 07:28 AM	#5
Hans Kuipers Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 61	to per christiansen To your information : the quality of super 8 is way better than the quality of the most expensive video equipment !!!!!

October 9th, 2002, 08:37 AM	#8
per christiansen Posts: n/a	super-8/8mm Okey,I have 325 rolls of film ca 30-45 minutes each,from 8mm taken from a camera my father have in this years 1944-1965 then he go for super-8 later. I have just found this films from this time and looking few scenes right now.This must be 8mm. I am shure it is super-8 to here,so I hope the quality could be better on s-8.He made some scenes to in 16mm film but I have no mascine to ply this right now.All is color.Some 3min rolls is not clipped and marked from 1945. I think this is from the end of war 8mai,when the king arrived back from england. The quality is not perfect I think.All the films stay in metal-boxes with weapon oil-paper covered it.Some degreations could be taken over this years.Interesting to hear that super-8 could be better than DV video. regard per

October 5th, 2002, 01:39 PM	#2
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I'm not sure of the level of quality your after, but I have a suggestion. My oldest brother, Lew, manages the downtown Dodd's Camera (at least I think he still manages it-haven't talked to him about his job in some time). If Dodd's doesn't offer the level of service your after, he may have a few suggestions that could help. That's my only Cleveland contact. My old production company, post house, used to do telecine and a lower level transfer to tape that the UC students used to use. I sold my interest in '96 and I can't vouch for the quality of their work any more. However, I still have many friends in the Cincinnati area that are in the industry and I would be happy to make a few contacts if you'd like. Jeff

October 6th, 2002, 11:44 AM	#3
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	You say the film is from the fifties and sixties... if so then it is probably REGULAR 8, Not SUPER 8. Super 8 as a format didn't really hit its stide till the seventies... just in time to be overwhelmed by video! Telling a lab you have super 8 when you really have regular 8 might result in problems, best to ask if they can transfer both. Regards Bill Angstrom (Who ocasionally still shoots super 8)

October 9th, 2002, 07:51 AM	#6
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Is this a "wild statement" or did you think on it before posting. What is quality for you?

October 9th, 2002, 07:59 AM	#7
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Old home movies (8mm and Super 8mm) were for the largest part shot on consumer cameras. They lacked good quality optics, film flatness was a problem and the transport was not precisely locked. Consumer processing was also not very good and many of the early S-8mm show leuco cyan dye failure. This is not to say that professionally produced S-8mm does not rival broadcast video. Only that the vast majority of 8mm and S-8mm was produced by consumers and is of fairly low quality. Jeff

October 9th, 2002, 10:23 AM	#9
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Per Christianson... Shooting your 24fps Super 8 at 25fps PAl is great... But frankly, most super 8 film was shot in 18fps in the US, until "sound" came into use. (Which WAS shot at 24fps). For those at home trying a poor-man's telecine, you will need a projector with a variable speed motor. The idea is to speed the film up to about 20fps. The shutter in most projectors has three "blades" resulting in 60 "Flicks" a second--- which works out pretty well with 60i... so almost no flicker. (Telecine projectors will have five or seven blades, AND a variable speed motor, and quite often an analogue video scanner as well... VERY pricey) Regarding the QUALITY of super 8 vs Video... well, "Garbage in=Garbage out" no matter the format or technology. But as a reference, I recently transfered some footage for a friend, shot in 1972 on KODACHROME. My God, the colors were breathtaking! The outdoor shots were AMAZING! Compare this to some video I shot with my first RCA camcorder back in '79... and the image SUCKED! Not only that, but the tape, though stored in a cool dry place, did not hold up as well as the film footage shot at the same time. I still shoot Super 8 for some projects, to get that "film look" at a low price. I shoot with a very nice Elmo sound camera or my old Nizo (which doesn't run as well). Good glass is important no matter what you shoot with. If you think super 8 is dead or dying... log on to Ebay and watch the prices for the nice cameras like the Bolex's, Cannon's or the Nizo's or Beaulieu go for up to 700 - 800 dollars. (Keep in mind, these cameras are often twenty five years old) Bill

October 9th, 2002, 10:44 AM	#10
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Kodachrome is a different beast all together and has a different dye strucure etc. Take a look at any early Ectachrome and you'll see what I mean. The majority of the S-8mm was shot on low quality Bell & Howell, Kodak and various low end Japanese cameras. Yes, the Bolex and Beaulieu cameras produced professional results then and today. But they are in the vast minority. The only reason I keep stressing the poor results most people will get, is not to build false hope that their old home movies will be better than their digital video. Jeff

October 10th, 2002, 08:58 AM	#11
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Jeff, I recently picked up some 8mm cameras. 1 Beaulieu, 1 keystone with a cmount telephoto lense that will also attach to the Beaulieu. The Beaulieu also came with a nice wide angle lense. Both of these seem to be for Kodachrome, but not super8. 1 Kodak xl350 with 2 unused rolls of ectachrome super8 film. The Kodak is battery operated, almost video like with a T and W button and some nice automated features. Looks like they were trying to compete with early video cameras with this one. I got all these for less than $50.00 total. I'm going to try to get the Kodak working. It has a nice wide angle lense with manual adjustment. Do you know where to get ectachrome super8 film? or any super8 stock? Thanks in advance Joe Carney

October 10th, 2002, 11:10 AM	#12
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	B & H Photo sells movie film http://www03.bhphotovideo.com/default.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=CatalogActivator__Acatalog_html___CatID=341___SID=F1076BEE2C0 I saw several S-8mm types inclusing B & W film. Jeff

October 11th, 2002, 10:04 AM	#13
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	You can buy film stock direct from Kodak. (Search for their web page) Cheaper in bulk, and cheaper if your are a student. There are some really good Super 8 web pages out there, full of links for sources, explore. A bit of warning... Super 8 can be addictive. And like most drugs, pretty expensive. Figure a final cost of 10 dollars a minute of film. Pricey compared to video. But there is something fun about working with film. I like to use Super 8 to teach kids the discipline of film-making. "Here's your roll of film. It will last about three minutes. (18fps) PLAN what to shoot ahead of time. Rehearse the scene. Check the lights. Check the meter. Check the focus. (Use a tape measure for greater accuracy) Rehearse the scene and camera movements. Then "Action". Suddenly, when they hear the film running through the camera it seems more "real". Then we dump the results onto tape, edit on a computer, then CUT THE ORIGINAL FILMSTOCK together. Just like the big boys. Just my experience though.

October 11th, 2002, 11:05 AM	#14
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	bill, thanks a lot. I just cleaned up and got working a Sankyo with automated/manual zoom. I also happened to get my hands on some very old ektacrome that came with another super8 camera I picked up. My question, is there any 8mm cartrige available (as opposed to super 8, it seems all the sites talk about super 8). I also have a pretty cool spring operated Keystone k-40 that will overcrank to 60fps and has a nice telephoto cmount lense. Hate to think it can't be used. All I could find so far was references to super8 which has a different form factor.

October 11th, 2002, 12:08 PM	#15
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	There was no regular 8mm cartridge. The box that 8mm film came in called it Double 8mm Film. It was actually a type of 16mm film on spools, 25 ft long. You threaded the film in the camera and shot 25 feet. Then you flip in over and shoot the other 25 feet. The film was processed and then slit down the length and spliced together on a 50 foot reel. People found Regular 8mm difficult to load, noisy and they wanted sound. Kodak invented Super 8mm and stuck it in the cartridge for easy loading and more precise handling for the sound requirements. Super 8mm also got smaller sprocket holes for quieter and more precise transport. I think Kodak discontinued R-8mm a few years ago, but I may be wrong. You had a choice of B & W and Kodachrome. Be very careful with the spring operated camera. Those springs can be under a lot of pressure and are very dangerous. I wouldn't take it apart. It's not worth the risk. Jeff