Super 8 film to DV transfer (telecine)

Richard Alvarez · October 11th, 2002, 12:40 PM

Double 8 film is still available. Again, search out the super 8 sites, there are some good links to suppliers. I think Yale Labs in LA, and Super 8 Sound in Burbank will process it, but again, do your own research.

I own two Sankyo's that are really nice. They seem to be very solid and consistent in operation.

Ebay is a good place to look for old Super 8 equipment, but as always, it's a bit of a dice roll. Most of my super 8 gear was bought by rummaging through garage sales, yard sales and "Thrift Stores". The most I ever spent for a camera was 35 dollars. (For the Nizo). I bought several cameras that didn't work, for a couple of dollars. Cleaned the battery contacts, and they were just fine. I bought a Bauer for $10, sold it to a film school for 120 dollars.

The only people making NEW super 8 cameras right now, are the Russians.

Super 8 Sound in Burbank, sells NEGATIVE stock, and will process and dub to tape for you. I think they offer different tape formats, so you can then pull it into your NLE and cut away!

Regards,

Bill

Joe Carney · October 11th, 2002, 04:57 PM

Once again thanks Bill, untill last post, I didn't realize it was called double 8. Thats why I didn't find anything.

Are the Russians selling their cams at a decent price? My handy little Sankyo only does 18fps as far as I can tell (it's either a 250 or 255, don't know for sure).
I would like to get one that does 24 or higher (powered). I don't plan on using 8mm as my main format, more for specialized shots/scenes to fit into my mainly shot on DV stuff. But you are right, it is addictive. I noticed the super8 stock from Kodak was that expensive. and the development cost from Pro8mm weren't too bad considering what they did.

I've heard up in Buffalo N.Y. They have a super8 five minute film festival. I also heard everyone processes their own film. Also heard about something similar in Athens Ga.

Once again, thanks very much for taking the time to answer.

Joe C.

Jeff Donald · October 11th, 2002, 06:57 PM

Kodachrome (K-14 process) is not a user processable film. To the best of my knowledge the only color Double 8 is Kodachrome. The Echtachrome S-8mm films (E-6 process) could be processed at home but with great difficulty and expense. E-6 chemistry is sold in fairly large working solution quantities. The chemistry, once mixed goes bad fairly quickly. That means you either have to shoot a lot of S-8mm (expensive) or batch process your film (process 10 to 15 rolls at a time) so the chemistry doesn't go bad.

The point is home processing is not a money or time saving venture. It's a hobby. Are you looking for or have the time for another hobby?

Jeff

Joe Carney · October 11th, 2002, 07:17 PM

Jeff, sorry, I was just sort of wondering out load so to speak.
I have no desire to develop film at home. Just thought it is interesting what they were doing up in Buffalo. The place is economically depressed and it's great they have these creative outlets.

Jeff Donald · October 11th, 2002, 07:44 PM

No, problem. I've done E-6 processing. No fun in my opinion. I have better ways to spend my Friday nights. But all too often I see people thinking that doing it themselves will save money. No way. Most people end up pouring the old chemistry down the drain. Big waste of money.

Jeff

Joe Carney · October 11th, 2002, 08:05 PM

Jeff, I noticed your only a few hours north of me. Any chance you use VV3 or other SoFo stuff? There are a few of us getting together at the end of the month in Orlando to discuss ideas about a feature.

Casey Visco · October 11th, 2002, 08:38 PM

super 8 hand processing isnt usually done with optimal picture integrity in mind...i've been doing a lot of handprocessing of tri-x and plus-x...solely for artistic reasons...taking all that film and stuffing it like spaghetti into a small processing tank gives some disgustingly beautiful artifacts =)

hand processing is pretty damn fun (that is, if your a crazy film/video/artist geek and don't have a girlfriend because you spend most of your time at your computer, in a dark room, or at a camera store, like me).

Jeff Donald · October 11th, 2002, 09:19 PM

I didn't say hand processing is no fun. I like B & W processing. Color processing is very precise. The first temperature is +/- 2/10 of a degree F. None of the 68, 72 etc. just adjust the times. You screw up the temp your film is ruined.

Jeff

Richard Alvarez · October 13th, 2002, 10:34 AM

Funny to be talking about a 25year old film technology on a DV board... but in a way, I guess it does belong.

Especially when you integrate the two. Copying the footage to DV or directly to the computer. Editing with an NLE and then conforming.

Yes, may people are surprised at the viability and the expense of super 8. There are many "film festivals" that feature Super 8 only. DO a Search for "FLICKER" - it's a travelling super 8 film festival that happens if various major cities. ANd most of the people I know who do hand processing, do it for the "artifacts" that arise out of the flawed process. Nobody I know, does it to save on the cost of accurate procesing.

Their is only one lab in the US that processes Kodachrome. That is DWAYNES, in Kansas I think. Kodak sends it's Kodachrome to Switzerland for processing.

Frankly, if I were KODAK, I would be GIVING AWAY super 8 film. If the indies and students of today, are going to be the Pros of tomorrow, then you would want them to experience the "Shoot on film, edit on tape, and either conform the negative or convert the dv to film" workflow. I think they are already looking over their shoulder as more pros save money by shooting HD...

But nobody died and made me King of Kodak.

The Russion SUper 8 cameras are pretty solid, very basic machines. (They are SPRING wound).

Joe Carney · October 13th, 2002, 10:57 AM

>>The Russion SUper 8 cameras are pretty solid, very basic machines. (They are SPRING wound).
<<
Bill, are they affordable? Spring just means you never need to bring batteries to a remote shoot, hehehe.

Jeff Donald · October 13th, 2002, 11:03 AM

Spring wound cameras can be a pain. They can speed up and slow down, so that the frames per second speeds and slows down. No fun in post. Fun to play with just don't expect pro results. Super 8mm is celebrating it's 40th birthday this year I believe.

Jeff

Joe Carney · October 13th, 2002, 11:30 AM

Jeff, point taken. Once I get the stuff transferred to tape, than I can adjust the speed with Vegas Video. Not a problem.
It's one of Vegas Videos' strengths.

Richard Alvarez · October 13th, 2002, 12:54 PM

Jeff is right about the spring drive, to a certain extent, they do compensate for the speed change... just like an expensive clock. (Besides, the same thing can happen with the battery operated models... the cheap ones anyway.)

As to the "birthday" of Super 8,

"In May 1965, super 8 in its stubby, coaxial plastic cartridge arrived loaded with Type A indoor balanced Kodachrome II, billed as a universal film." .... "The next stroke for super 8 was a total systems approach by Eastman to the challenge of filming movies in low light level doing away with hot and bright movie lights. The XL (existing light) concept was introduced in 1972: this included the new fast Ektachrome 160 film and cameras with fast lenses and broad shtter angles for making the most of dim light."
THE SUPER 8 BOOK by
Lenny Lipton

Super 8 hit it's peak in the consumer market in the mid seventies. Most of the used cameras you find today, are from that era. I have a library of back issues of "Super 8 Filmmaker" that are really interesting to read. Expecially when they start arguing about how the new, video cameras are too expensive, too bulky, and WILL NEVER replace Super 8! They do, however, talk about using the video to tape transfers, for editing purposes!
Bill

Jeff Donald · October 13th, 2002, 01:24 PM

Who remembers Polaroid, Polavision, instant home movies?

Jeff

So, we have to wait a few years for that big 40th birthday party. Darn!

Richard Alvarez · October 13th, 2002, 02:43 PM

Jeff,

"Instant Movies" were the holy grail of the super 8 community... and they were darn close to mastering it when affordable video showed up. Reading the reviews of Polavision in the old Super 8 magazines is really informative. It helps keep everything in perspective, when I read the Hyperbole around HD and DV... It's always great to read what "The future will be" in magazines that are 25 years old.

Here's a good look at an excerpt from the editorial in Super8FIlmmaker Jan/Feb 1979 -

"In a country where more households have TV sets than indoor toilets, home VCRs with their ability to record shows off the air for later playback, are one of the hottest things going. In a recent TV Guide article, (Oct 28,1978) David Lachenbruch claims "home tapies" (his phrase) will shortly replace "Home movies". HE clearly puts Super-8 on the endagered species list. Is Super 8 going the way of the bald eagle?

This is another draft of the tiresome video-versus-film scenario, and it's a lot of bunk. Remember when the introduction of cassette sound tape was going to make the phonograph obsolete? Pessimistic oracles of the film industry should take their lens caps off. ... Those who debate which medium is better or which will survive in the marketplace are suffering from narrow, competetive thinking. THe great advantage of these two communications tools is that they can work together, extending the capabilitites of both.... It's a marriage of media we call "SuperVideo"....

--

Wow, what a dose of perspective twenty two years later. Cassettes DID make phonographs obsolete.... and were in turn replaced by CD's, a format no one could imagine.... BUT phonographs, turntables, and DJ's are still a part of the music scene... Just like super 8 is still a "retro" form of art for many filmmakers.

But really now.... "SuperVideo" - "Home Tapies" ???? (shudder)

October 11th, 2002, 08:38 PM	#22
Casey Visco Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 280	super 8 hand processing isnt usually done with optimal picture integrity in mind...i've been doing a lot of handprocessing of tri-x and plus-x...solely for artistic reasons...taking all that film and stuffing it like spaghetti into a small processing tank gives some disgustingly beautiful artifacts =) hand processing is pretty damn fun (that is, if your a crazy film/video/artist geek and don't have a girlfriend because you spend most of your time at your computer, in a dark room, or at a camera store, like me). __________________ Casey Visco Glidecam Industries, Inc.

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October 11th, 2002, 12:40 PM	#16
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Double 8 film is still available. Again, search out the super 8 sites, there are some good links to suppliers. I think Yale Labs in LA, and Super 8 Sound in Burbank will process it, but again, do your own research. I own two Sankyo's that are really nice. They seem to be very solid and consistent in operation. Ebay is a good place to look for old Super 8 equipment, but as always, it's a bit of a dice roll. Most of my super 8 gear was bought by rummaging through garage sales, yard sales and "Thrift Stores". The most I ever spent for a camera was 35 dollars. (For the Nizo). I bought several cameras that didn't work, for a couple of dollars. Cleaned the battery contacts, and they were just fine. I bought a Bauer for $10, sold it to a film school for 120 dollars. The only people making NEW super 8 cameras right now, are the Russians. Super 8 Sound in Burbank, sells NEGATIVE stock, and will process and dub to tape for you. I think they offer different tape formats, so you can then pull it into your NLE and cut away! Regards, Bill

October 11th, 2002, 04:57 PM	#17
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Once again thanks Bill, untill last post, I didn't realize it was called double 8. Thats why I didn't find anything. Are the Russians selling their cams at a decent price? My handy little Sankyo only does 18fps as far as I can tell (it's either a 250 or 255, don't know for sure). I would like to get one that does 24 or higher (powered). I don't plan on using 8mm as my main format, more for specialized shots/scenes to fit into my mainly shot on DV stuff. But you are right, it is addictive. I noticed the super8 stock from Kodak was that expensive. and the development cost from Pro8mm weren't too bad considering what they did. I've heard up in Buffalo N.Y. They have a super8 five minute film festival. I also heard everyone processes their own film. Also heard about something similar in Athens Ga. Once again, thanks very much for taking the time to answer. Joe C.

October 11th, 2002, 06:57 PM	#18
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Kodachrome (K-14 process) is not a user processable film. To the best of my knowledge the only color Double 8 is Kodachrome. The Echtachrome S-8mm films (E-6 process) could be processed at home but with great difficulty and expense. E-6 chemistry is sold in fairly large working solution quantities. The chemistry, once mixed goes bad fairly quickly. That means you either have to shoot a lot of S-8mm (expensive) or batch process your film (process 10 to 15 rolls at a time) so the chemistry doesn't go bad. The point is home processing is not a money or time saving venture. It's a hobby. Are you looking for or have the time for another hobby? Jeff

October 11th, 2002, 07:17 PM	#19
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Jeff, sorry, I was just sort of wondering out load so to speak. I have no desire to develop film at home. Just thought it is interesting what they were doing up in Buffalo. The place is economically depressed and it's great they have these creative outlets.

October 11th, 2002, 07:44 PM	#20
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	No, problem. I've done E-6 processing. No fun in my opinion. I have better ways to spend my Friday nights. But all too often I see people thinking that doing it themselves will save money. No way. Most people end up pouring the old chemistry down the drain. Big waste of money. Jeff

October 11th, 2002, 08:05 PM	#21
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Jeff, I noticed your only a few hours north of me. Any chance you use VV3 or other SoFo stuff? There are a few of us getting together at the end of the month in Orlando to discuss ideas about a feature.

October 11th, 2002, 09:19 PM	#23
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I didn't say hand processing is no fun. I like B & W processing. Color processing is very precise. The first temperature is +/- 2/10 of a degree F. None of the 68, 72 etc. just adjust the times. You screw up the temp your film is ruined. Jeff

October 13th, 2002, 10:34 AM	#24
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Funny to be talking about a 25year old film technology on a DV board... but in a way, I guess it does belong. Especially when you integrate the two. Copying the footage to DV or directly to the computer. Editing with an NLE and then conforming. Yes, may people are surprised at the viability and the expense of super 8. There are many "film festivals" that feature Super 8 only. DO a Search for "FLICKER" - it's a travelling super 8 film festival that happens if various major cities. ANd most of the people I know who do hand processing, do it for the "artifacts" that arise out of the flawed process. Nobody I know, does it to save on the cost of accurate procesing. Their is only one lab in the US that processes Kodachrome. That is DWAYNES, in Kansas I think. Kodak sends it's Kodachrome to Switzerland for processing. Frankly, if I were KODAK, I would be GIVING AWAY super 8 film. If the indies and students of today, are going to be the Pros of tomorrow, then you would want them to experience the "Shoot on film, edit on tape, and either conform the negative or convert the dv to film" workflow. I think they are already looking over their shoulder as more pros save money by shooting HD... But nobody died and made me King of Kodak. The Russion SUper 8 cameras are pretty solid, very basic machines. (They are SPRING wound).

October 13th, 2002, 10:57 AM	#25
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	>>The Russion SUper 8 cameras are pretty solid, very basic machines. (They are SPRING wound). << Bill, are they affordable? Spring just means you never need to bring batteries to a remote shoot, hehehe.

October 13th, 2002, 11:03 AM	#26
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Spring wound cameras can be a pain. They can speed up and slow down, so that the frames per second speeds and slows down. No fun in post. Fun to play with just don't expect pro results. Super 8mm is celebrating it's 40th birthday this year I believe. Jeff

October 13th, 2002, 11:30 AM	#27
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Jeff, point taken. Once I get the stuff transferred to tape, than I can adjust the speed with Vegas Video. Not a problem. It's one of Vegas Videos' strengths.

October 13th, 2002, 12:54 PM	#28
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Jeff is right about the spring drive, to a certain extent, they do compensate for the speed change... just like an expensive clock. (Besides, the same thing can happen with the battery operated models... the cheap ones anyway.) As to the "birthday" of Super 8, "In May 1965, super 8 in its stubby, coaxial plastic cartridge arrived loaded with Type A indoor balanced Kodachrome II, billed as a universal film." .... "The next stroke for super 8 was a total systems approach by Eastman to the challenge of filming movies in low light level doing away with hot and bright movie lights. The XL (existing light) concept was introduced in 1972: this included the new fast Ektachrome 160 film and cameras with fast lenses and broad shtter angles for making the most of dim light." THE SUPER 8 BOOK by Lenny Lipton Super 8 hit it's peak in the consumer market in the mid seventies. Most of the used cameras you find today, are from that era. I have a library of back issues of "Super 8 Filmmaker" that are really interesting to read. Expecially when they start arguing about how the new, video cameras are too expensive, too bulky, and WILL NEVER replace Super 8! They do, however, talk about using the video to tape transfers, for editing purposes! Bill

October 13th, 2002, 01:24 PM	#29
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Who remembers Polaroid, Polavision, instant home movies? Jeff So, we have to wait a few years for that big 40th birthday party. Darn!

October 13th, 2002, 02:43 PM	#30
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Jeff, "Instant Movies" were the holy grail of the super 8 community... and they were darn close to mastering it when affordable video showed up. Reading the reviews of Polavision in the old Super 8 magazines is really informative. It helps keep everything in perspective, when I read the Hyperbole around HD and DV... It's always great to read what "The future will be" in magazines that are 25 years old. Here's a good look at an excerpt from the editorial in Super8FIlmmaker Jan/Feb 1979 - "In a country where more households have TV sets than indoor toilets, home VCRs with their ability to record shows off the air for later playback, are one of the hottest things going. In a recent TV Guide article, (Oct 28,1978) David Lachenbruch claims "home tapies" (his phrase) will shortly replace "Home movies". HE clearly puts Super-8 on the endagered species list. Is Super 8 going the way of the bald eagle? This is another draft of the tiresome video-versus-film scenario, and it's a lot of bunk. Remember when the introduction of cassette sound tape was going to make the phonograph obsolete? Pessimistic oracles of the film industry should take their lens caps off. ... Those who debate which medium is better or which will survive in the marketplace are suffering from narrow, competetive thinking. THe great advantage of these two communications tools is that they can work together, extending the capabilitites of both.... It's a marriage of media we call "SuperVideo".... -- Wow, what a dose of perspective twenty two years later. Cassettes DID make phonographs obsolete.... and were in turn replaced by CD's, a format no one could imagine.... BUT phonographs, turntables, and DJ's are still a part of the music scene... Just like super 8 is still a "retro" form of art for many filmmakers. But really now.... "SuperVideo" - "Home Tapies" ???? (shudder)