Archiving with Sony Vegas

[Ilkka Pouhakka]

I have few problems and would appreciate some help.
I want to archive my footage with retaining the maximum quality while still keeping the file size reasonable.

I'll try to explain this as best as I can.
I record video games. Maybe not the most common subject for the people around here, but I try to give all the needed information to keep you on the map. :)

One being computer games with program called Fraps. This program will save the video into 24-bit RGB .avi file and so far I've figured out that using Lagarith in Vegas is probably the best way that I know, at least with my current knowledge.

Second are all console games recorded with a Blackmagic Design's capture card.
I will be making an upgrade in the future so that I can record in 10-bit color space since the current card can only record in 8-bit.
However, I'm still new to the whole color space and such, so I don't really know that should I record in 10-bit 4:2:2 or 10-bit 4:4:4 YUV? All I know is that the writing speed of the hard drive has to be waaaay higher with 4:4:4, but is it really worth the upgrade? Meaning, that do I really see that extra information? When making a video with Lagarith from RGB color spaced .avi, there is no visual loss, but there has to be some sort of compression happening since the outcome is smaller file size. Could you say that 4:2:2 is compressed same way from 4:4:4 than Lagarith does to RGB video?

Now, even if I knew that I would use either 10-bit 4:2:2 YUV or 10-bit 4:4:4 YUV, the problem is that I don't know good lossless codec for this color space.
I tried the Lagarith codec but the outcome always looks 'washed out', unless I do the color correction in Vegas. However, doing that gave me some small color bleeding when I made comparison and I decided that I will not do that for the video that is going into archive unless it's my absolute last resort.

There are also other color spaces in the properties of Lagarith, but after I tried them out, the video always had some sort of error message popping up saying that it doesn't work.

Is there something I am missing out?

[Mike Calla]

I'm a little confused by your questions, not your fault, its hard to express a question sometimes when you're not sure what the question is. Have gone through this myself a few times.

I'll try though: 4 4 4 is overkill except in the most high end work being done.

Well I'm not well versed in using BM card for capture, but capturing with BM, then archiving is your goal? Maybe someone else can answer about the ingest format.

If you are using Vegas and want to archive I recommend, MXF files, or Avid DnxHD.

Mpeg streamclip can do DnxHD files too.

[Ilkka Pouhakka]

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

capturing with BM, then archiving is your goal?

Yes. But the problem is that because it captures in YUV, I have a problem with Vegas since I can't find a good lossless codec to output back into 10-bit YUV.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

If you are using Vegas and want to archive I recommend, MXF files, or Avid DnxHD.

Is there some other program that might be a better solution for the archiving process than Vegas?
I would like to use lossless codec instead of lossy.

However, I am still completely open to new ideas at this point so all ideas are welcome.

[Mike Calla]

Try Avid's DnxHD codec. its in an industry standard. Multiple frame rates, bit rates and bit depths

Avid | DNxHD Codec - Beauty Without Bandwidth.

Install the codec on your system, then you can also use "MPEG streamclip" to do the conversion. A small, free painless program specifically to do conversion.

[Paul Cascio]

Can you exit DNxHD in Vegas? How's performance?

[Ilkka Pouhakka]

I didn't get it to work with Vegas.
...neither I didn't really know how to use the MPEG streamclip. Maybe I'm just stupid. :D

Now I have a new question, it might sound weird but it just came to my mind:
If I buy myself a capture card that would support recording in RGB instead of YUV, does that mean that the Lagarith will work with it the same way it does while I use the .avis recorded with Fraps (which are 24-bit RGB)?

BMD's technical support gave me one card that supports 444 RGB, which I assume will work the same way as the .avis made by Fraps.
If it works this way, then I might look into it instead of trying to find correct codec or program to use with YUV.

To put it simply, Fraps = 24bit RGB -> Vegas/editing -> Lagarith RGB = visually lossless video.
BMD card = 444 RGB -> Vegas/editing -> Lagarith RGB = visually lossless video but smaller file size than original?

[Mike Calla]

Originally Posted by Paul Cascio

Can you exit DNxHD in Vegas? How's performance?

I use it everyday!

[Mike Calla]

Originally Posted by Ilkka Pouhakka

I didn't get it to work with Vegas.
...neither I didn't really know how to use the MPEG streamclip. Maybe I'm just stupid. :D

Now I have a new question, it might sound weird but it just came to my mind:
If I buy myself a capture card that would support recording in RGB instead of YUV, does that mean that the Lagarith will work with it the same way it does while I use the .avis recorded with Fraps (which are 24-bit RGB)?

BMD's technical support gave me one card that supports 444 RGB, which I assume will work the same way as the .avis made by Fraps.
If it works this way, then I might look into it instead of trying to find correct codec or program to use with YUV.

To put it simply, Fraps = 24bit RGB -> Vegas/editing -> Lagarith RGB = visually lossless video.
BMD card = 444 RGB -> Vegas/editing -> Lagarith RGB = visually lossless video but smaller file size than original?

Ilkka, 444RGB, is for really high end effects work, so unless you're working on the next Avengers movie, forget about it.

Again, I'm not sure what format BM cards capture in, but Sony mxf format should be enough for you.

[Gene Gajewski]

I'd have to agree that 444 RGB is a bit of overkill, unless you can articulate a very specific reason for needing it.

That said, there is no history that I know of with Largarith and incorrect video levels, esp with RGB input, and no known history of Vegas botching level on import from Lagarith.

However.... it may be that this fraps app is giving Lagarith 0-255 levels which isn't exactly kosher, but it's an issue commonly encountered in any NLE.

If this is the case, just simply throw the Sony Levels plugin on as a media fx for that clip and choose the 'Computer RGB to Studio RGB' preset. Nothing to it.

I probably would choose either Mpeg-2 or H264 as archiving codecs, choosing a suitable bit rate given the frame size captured, and keeping in mind that game video is easier to compress than camera video generally.

[Ilkka Pouhakka]

MXF was one of the first things that I considered as archiving format before discovering Lagarith.
However, it's exclusive for Pro and I would need to make upgrade for it. But it is one format I need to keep in mind.

What do you think about this:
Recording in 10-bit YUV 4:2:2 and then rendering in Vegas into Lagarith without any color correction.
When ever needed that specific video, I'll just add the color correction and done.

Does this method have notable loss in quality?
This was actually my first method that I had in mind unless I realised that I have to think about the color spaces as well.
I started to notice that videos look washed out after I render them in Vegas, except the Fraps videos since they are recorded in RGB.

Again, I'm fairly new to the color spaces and such, so forgive the weird questions. :)

[Jon Fairhurst]

Personally, I archive in Cineform using Vegas. I believe that it's 10-bit 4:2:2. Another option to consider.

[Ilkka Pouhakka]

The cheapest price I saw was 129$ and the highest was closer to 1000$. Little pricey I'd say...
But one to keep in mind yes. Which version you have?

Anyways, can anybody tell me what is the difference between YUV, YUY2 and YV12?

[Jon Fairhurst]

I bought NeoScene back before GoPro purchased Cineform. GoPro Cineform Studio is now free, though I'm not sure that it provides everything you might want:

GoPro CineForm Software Download | GoPro Support

[Gene Gajewski]

Normally, there should be no loss in color quality going from 10 bit YUV to RGB so Lagarith should do well. Someone has mentioned Cineform, which is also a good choice as wavelet compression doesn't have the same artifacting problems that mpeg and H264 can display.

[Ilkka Pouhakka]

Originally Posted by Gene Gajewski

Normally, there should be no loss in color quality going from 10 bit YUV to RGB so Lagarith should do well.

What do you think about 8-bit? Currently I can only capture in 8-bit and after I import the file in Vegas, I can already see in the preview that the color has changed and after rendering the YUV file into RGB with Lagarith, it looks washed out.

I am planning to get myself a new card that is capable of recording in 10-bit, so your post gives me hope of not messing too much with the colors. But right now, I am unable to test your theory myself since I can only do the 8-bit capture.