Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Airplane mode.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Well that's it then, all of those cameras and lenses that you've spent thousands of dollars on, are now useless junk.
You can stop your endless, time consuming quest to find video equipment to suit your needs. It's all sorted, just use your smart phone.

By the way, I will be in your area shortly with my truck to collect all that useless, outdated, obsolete and inferior video equipment...

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I always wonder how much brides appreciate carefully created content that wedding editors like Noa spend hours working on or are they more interested in how they look and what they are doing ? In fact sometimes editors go to all that trouble to make the image soft romantic and dreamy when all they really need to do is shoot it on a $39.95 cell phone and it's already soft and fuzzy!

I know content is king but how fussy are viewers really ... we have a 1280x720 res Samsung TV and I cannot tell the difference between it and my mate's 1080 TV ...In fact I saw a 4K TV the other day and yes it's very sharp but somehow it doesn't look normal and I could imagine a acne inflicted bride freaking out because her 4K video shows all the defects under the makeup. I know my wife will happily watch TV programs in HD and SD and when asked about the IQ difference I get the response ...I was watching the show I didn't notice ... in fact one enterprising videographer here is offering classic wedding shoots on "genuine VHS cassettes for that vintage feel"

Even DVR dashcams ($49.95) produce amazingly crisp footage AND bear in mind they are shooting thru the windshield glass too!!!

I wonder if the professional videographer and all his gear will eventually become a dying breed and his "pro rig" will soon drop into his top pocket ? The only person that will have a huge collection of gear then will be Jack!!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hi Chris,

Some interesting points that I agree with and have thought about a lot recently.

I have filmed a couple of weddings this year where the light levels have been very poor, view obstructed, and venue sound systems have broken down and I have been concerned about parts of the video not being up to my usual standard. One in particular I delivered and they watched it all the way through while I was there. The bits I felt uncomfortable with, they didn't notice at all and were only interested in the action. They were absolutely delighted and gave me a fantastic review. I also posted some photos from a very recent wedding on Facebook, on which I had spent quite a bit of extra time doing some antique and soft focus styling in photo shop, something that has been very popular with Brides. I had an email from the Bride saying that she liked the photos, but they much preferred just natural colour and everything in the background visible!

To me, that reinforces that although we try to offer something as professional and polished as possible, couples are often only interested in something simple.

Particularly with modern wedding video, I think that a lot of new people entering the business have perhaps been to university on film production degree courses and have learnt a lot of modern techniques. That coupled with big blockbuster style films and the availability of affordable camera and ancillary equipment and software, has meant that a lot of film and video makers have been able to apply cinematic style to their productions. That has given aspirations to new and existing video producers that tend to be frustrated by the lack of paid work on the film industry. The one easy access market that can give a financial return and allow the videographer to apply new skills is the wedding video industry.

That of course raises the question of are we actually giving clients what they want or what we want? Are we in fact making our own market more restricted by adding ever increasing technical quality that may look very nice, but is moving away from a more simplistic and affordable coverage. So many are used to watching phone and lower quality instant video these days, that is nothing about quality and everything about content. Maybe we are making ourselves into a luxury item that is becoming more detached from the instant fun requirements of modern couples. I'm not suggesting that we all change over to phones, but that maybe there is a call for a return to the simple one camera limited editing market of a couple of decades ago.

Roger

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hi Roger

I'm sure I have said it before but I really think that we DON'T give brides what they want as they normally have no idea what they want so we show them some samples and they say "that's great" and book you.

So in a nutshell we give them what we like and hope they will like it too. I think with weddings we have shot a huge variety over the years so we have the experience of 1000's of events under our belt and we have probably been influenced a little here and there as well as developing our own style but for the poor bride, in most cases, this is the first time for her so she is clueless, not just video and photos but basically everything as it's all new to her. A lot of the time brides accept what we feed them and if we all used mobile footage that's what they would like.

Could you get away with a mobile phone for photos?? probably you could because 90% of a good photo is composition, catching a moment etc etc not the fact that you have a DSLR with a honking great telephoto lens. (I still have no idea why these photogs have a huge Canon 400mm zoom yet they stand only feet away from the bride) In the same instance I reckon I could also get away with using a laptop and 2 x $150 web cams for a wedding ceremony instead of my usual cameras and very few people would even know. My retired mate Philip wants to film his daughter's wedding using 8 x GoPro's and I'm sure the footage would look good too.

It's not the camera ..it's the person behind the camera that counts and whether it's a Digi BetaCam or a 4K Phone , that's what will make the difference.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hey Dave

It wasn't that long ago that videos were shot on video cameras, proper video cameras that sat on your shoulder and made you look like the dude from the local TV station. Still photos were taken on DSLR cameras with a nice bunch of lenses and you would never, ever consider shooting video on a still camera ..shucks even my old Nikon D90's were able to shoot basic video when I first got them BUT I never did so.

It was a matter of a few short years when shoulder mount cameras virtually vanished from the market (my last were my Sony EA-50's and they were already called hybrids) DSLR's virtually took over for video shoots even though you were limited to 12 minute clips.

Seriously there has to be a new phase happening fairly soon! I have no idea whether it will be "pro cell phones" or GoPro will introduce a palm size 8K camera that wipes Nikon, Canon and Panny out of the market but I think we will need to be looking a niche markets as the consumer starts to have the gear to shoot a whole lot of stuff that pros used to shoot!!

Interesting times???

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Looks like there is a product for this at NAB. We're all doomed, doomed I say!

(click image to embiggen)

More info on the product is here: http://cinamaker.net/

Andrew

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

What is really sad Andrew is that most people will not watch it on a 60" 4K big screen TV either ...they will watch it on their phones so the image will look as good as any pro camera. Yikes, two phones and a tablet and you have a TV studio setup .. what is the world coming to?

Then again I can see a huge advantage in using this system when it comes to carrying giant cameras around to events ...that system could easily fit into just one carry bag so it's easy to go to venues without making 4 trips from the car.

I was wondering about audio on a system like this but looking at my previous statement about "they will watch it on their phones" I guess you don't need to produce audio that sounds good through a home theatre system.

So what do we do now? Stay behind and look for specialised niche markets that can only be done with traditional video cameras or do we call Jack Walsh to pick up our old gear and go the new tech route? I might as well put my desktop computers on the pile too and do everything on a phone!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Here's my prediction in the next xxxx many years. Phones or something like a small handheld device will dominate the video industry, resolution will be stupid like 20k and more, you focus on near then focus on far and then choose what you want in focus when in the edit or in your phone. The screen it's self will be a lens. I'll be dead before this happens however this is the future I reckon, Imagine just rocking up with one unit/device set it wide, have a beer come back, put it back in ya pocket, edit away... perfect. Now Image for live broadcast, setup heaps of units, one operator in a room somewhere with tracking device on the ball/player the list is endless. I just want to add for live sport, replays, an operator finds the action required to replay just by zooming in on the ball/player never missing one frame of the action.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

You might be surprised Simon !

The way things are going we both could be able to shoot events directly from our aged care walkers and do a damn good job of it. The way technology is heading age won't be a set back either ...we just grab a few phones hop onto our hover boards and be able to do aerial shots as well ...drones will still be around but just to serve drinks at the venue to guests!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Make that an Asahi beer please DRONE ..... ha

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

The Lytro/Lightfield cameras already take care of the "exactly what do you want in focus" thing, or soon will.


As for the rest. . .rest easy gents, at least we know that if no one wants to hire a pro videographer with gear to shoot their project, they still have to edit all that footage down to a nice tight package, and once they realize what a pain that is there'll be a huge market for editors!

Oh wait, I hate editing. Damn. . .

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hi Josh

I hate editing too which is why we live stream our events now so we can edit on the fly etc etc.

Did you not see the 2 x phone and 1 x tablet system that Andrew posted from cinamaker? You don't have to stream your footage with that set up ..you can simply record it and STILL edit live from the tablet ...Voila ..no editing !

I must admit it's really great to go out nowdays and shoot a wedding and when I come home I'm finished the entire job (OK except for sending the bride a USB backup on the Monday) BIT no editing!!!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

!!!REVENGE OF THE SOUNDIES!!!

You camera ops with your gadgets that you have to buy new every year or two... your comeuppance has arrived!

If you review the "we-have-a-solution-now-what's-the-problem?" video at the cinamaker site, you'll see a pretty pedestrian multicam demo... with bad indirect sound!

Apparently we'll all need to be location sound mixers in the future.

We might have the Lytro technology to designate focus point in post, but there still is no cure for indirect and off-mic sound. Other than a lav of course...

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Well said Seth

That's a very significant point since although cameras have been jumping ahead in leaps and bounds, their audio has actually been getting progressively worse.in comparison! Audio systems haven't really changed that much yet video producers seem to mess it up anyway. We really do need some drastic advances in the audio field now ... Add some lav mics, transmitters. receivers, shotguns and booms plus a decent mixer and that simple setup becomes quite complex. A decent audio setup can make a huge difference to any video footage and at this stage, as fancy as they are, cell phones don't have the technology to provide it yet!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I was thinking more of all the other types of projects out there. . .corporate video, commercials, etc. etc. Things where you couldn't really edit on the fly, but have to go out, shoot footage, edit into a final product.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hi Josh

Unless it's an event, be it a wedding or a corporate presentation, I think corporate promos still entail heaps of raw footage and heaps of editing to convert an hours raw footage into a powerful client message lasting no more than 60 seconds ... Advertising or even getting a message to new prospective markets is totally non structured and requires creative thinking and tweaking whilst a scheduled event runs (hopefully) to a timeline and is pretty easy to live edit.

So let's say this sort of live edit is pretty much restricted to carefully prepared events ...I don't mind editing promos at all it brings out the creative juices and I can easily handle short form video ...I just don't like trying to edit a full blown wedding,recital or concert manually where live edits would make the job so much easier!!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

right...

the point/joke that i was making was even if smartphones and amateur videographers replace us all, someone still has to edit all this garbage footage into a watchable final product. Unless it's just a highlight video (that an algorithm could pontentially handle)you still need a talented human to do that. That's where we become relevant again.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

A good example of the threat cell phone can be to camcorders, I was asked to shoot a musical with kids, while I was filming a woman on the left side of me in the back row of the theater was standing up the entire show shooting video with her smartphone, guess who is not buying a dvd copy? I also saw a lot of lights from smartphones light up in the room. Now I didn't care as I had a fixed price for the shoot but this is a example where the parents are ok with the image quality of their cell phone which probably will look good if there is good light on stage and even if the soundrecording will suck, they just want a memory from their child and might prefer to have it on their phone which eventually will upload it to "the cloud" for safekeeping and/or sharing.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Well, you see, this is where the water squirter (otherwise used for naughty cats) comes in to play. :-)

Andrew

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hi Noa

Glad you mentioned that! I did a wedding last month and the first dance was on a portable dance floor outside ..my cam handled the lighting no issue but the whole ambience was totally ruined by a guest shooting her wobbly video with her iPhone that had a bright "video light" ...that just killed the whole thing as those lights are amazingly bright!! Sadly cells will be a part of weddings whether we like it or not ...I really think they should call them "multimedia devices" not phones as people rarely use them to make phone calls!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Here is the part I am laughing about. There are at least a few of you on this thread that have been buying new cameras every 12/24 months or less for the last ten years. Some of you probably have hundreds of posts about it and they all say "I went, smaller, lighter and cheaper. Isn't that great!" Some of you are using hybrids and even mirror-less point and shoots. Cell phones are the last step down from that. Where did you think it would stop? The market drives technology. What are you shooting with now? Just saying........

Kind Regards,

Steve

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

They are here already Steve!

Polaroid brought one out as per the image below but I can seriously see the day when you slide on a 20x optical Zeiss or Leica glass lens onto the phone body, slide a full EVF onto the edge and then clip in a two channel wireless micro XLR audio module and you are good to go!! Take off all 3 in less than 10 seconds and you are back on Facebook

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Actually, I did stream a 90 minute funeral service on Facebook for a friend using her I-Phone. I was attending the funeral and she said "Hey Roger! You're a pro videographer. Can you stream my mother in law's funeral on my phone to the out of state relatives."

I told her it would be my first live streamed video, if it worked, but sure! I borrowed another friend's USB Power Brick device so the phone wouldn't go dead. Kathy dialed into her account, and off we went. Saw the other daughter in law in a small window watching on another phone more than a thousand miles away.

Anyway, the process worked. Not a single hickup. The far away daughter in law remarked at how steady and easy to watch the video was. Just held the phone in landscape position, was careful how I framed the shot, turned slowly using my body just like when I go handheld with my cameras.

No kidding. It was seamless. Only had to plug in that power brick. Audio was good because of where I was sitting (carefully chosen because I did a quick test and realized the fixed lens limitations of the phone etc.)and the acoustics of the church.

Only a matter of time before there's a small camcorder with similar circuitry to the phone built in. I'm using JVC HM-170s. The next step up, the 200 series, have some streaming built in. Not planning to offer streaming just yet, but monitoring where things are heading. Just noticed the new Sling device for I-Pad...

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Quite scary Roger!! Yes I'm positive the corporate shoot where they have a $50K budget won't be affected neither will the $10K high end weddings but I can honestly see budget weddings being shot in the near future with hybrid camera/phones ... If you look at the two videos at the start of this post can anyone honestly say that a budget bride wouldn't be thrilled with footage of that quality? We already have cameras that cost thousands that have terrible audio preamps (Canon 5D) so there is no reason a wedding videographer couldn't have dedicated audio gear and shoot the video at 4K on a Galaxy 8 .... after a bit of Noa style editing no-one would know the difference .... drop a phone like that into a good quality 3 axis gimbal and you could have a pretty good result ... protest all you want but in the domestic market we will see better and better quality in the coming years ..maybe I need to retire now and leave all this cell shooting to the kids?

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Not even in my dreams I would consider shooting a wedding with smartphone, no matter what the IQ is. A phone is a disaster when it comes to functionality, try changing shutter, iso, f-stop or focus on the fly while holding the phone in front of you swiping the screen, even more fun trying to do that in the glaring sun with it's reflective screen. Just the thought of it is ridiculous. I draw the line with using dslr's, would much prefer to shoot on a real videocamera but I can't ignore the advantages my panasonic dslr's have for my personal use, eventhough they are no real videocamera's either and lack functionality that a video oriented professional camera has I at least can change all settings I need while holding the camera's viewfinder against my eye which is where a camera should be if you shoot a non repeatable critical moment while handholding the camera.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Im with Noa all the way. I made my only real point in my first post. Now were just having fun. At least I am not serious about this stuff. As said, my clients would run me off the set if I showed up with even a DSLR.

Chris, The market is already offering what you just said (almost). Here is the clip on Haselblad camera for your Motorola phone:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...D&Q=&A=details

Steve

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

One of my favorite truths in business and life is "Just because you can does not mean you should." I have hired a ton of freelancers in my time, some amazing ones I learn from and some green ones I train. I am always teaching that statement to the green ones. That is really what we are talking about here. Some times technology provides us with multiple options to achieve a similar result. But the correct way to do things is rarely with tools and options from the bottom of the food chain.

Steve

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I'm in the process of selling all my cameras and switching to Cell phones for video. I have one in each hand, on my belt, and my head band. Any angle, any time. That's how I roll

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hey Steve

I was, of course. having fun too just as Pete is. Yep the IQ is pretty darn good but practical usage sucks! Dunno about you guys but when my phone rings I have to swipe the little "lock" icon to the right to answer it and try as I might it just stays put and will not move so I end up having to call back, very frustrated. Imagine shooting a bride walking down the aisle and the phone refuses to comply with your finger as the music starts..sheer panic ....To be honest I'm not too happy with the touch screen controls on my new Lumix now either ....What happened to buttons??? I'm used to buttons and I like buttons that you can physically press and know something will happen ...my old cell (all of $35.00) used to have an answer button and I loved it!

I still miss my shoulder mount cameras ...to me that's a "proper" video camera not a smallish DSLR form factor that's almost impossible to hold steady without a rig! As a parting shot you will be delighted to know that on my current smartphone I have never taken a single still shot or video ..couldn't be bothered !! I won't be switching to phones for video anytime soon but sadly I still think some might just do it!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I thought you were going to say filming the bride coming down the aisle and the phone rings.

If it has a quality screen and can work well like Canon dslrs. But in bright sun touch screen buttons become worthless.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I just noticed Vimeo Cameo on their site.

If the world is a community of mobile filmmakers, they need an easy app to "edit" and post their films on Vimeo, right?

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

It's all about marketing Seth ! If there are 6 million phone videographers near your market and only 500,000 camcorder videographers you would be stupid not to target the bigger market with your product or service!

We got what we affectionately call "junk mail" in the post box yesterday and browsing through it I was quite taken aback that a Samsung Galaxy 8 plus cell phone is nearly $1400.00 here ....you can actually buy a nice bridge camera or camcorder for less than that but people are opting for the phone!

Just remember even if you are an iPhone hater when it comes to video, the brides really don't care what you shoot with at a wedding as long as you make her look pretty ...In 25 years of video I have yet to have ANY bride ask about cameras and format and in fact, most still want a DVD!! I think I had one groom last year who was insisting on 4K cameras and when I asked the bride to be she had no idea what he was talking about. It used to be "we shoot your video on the latest broadcast quality cameras" and it might just be a marketing point to now say " we shoot on the new iPhone12 8K cameras"

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Hmm...

Good points Chris.

New media literacy coming to a market near you! Literacy is not just reading printed material. Literacy is not just watching and listening to video. Literacy is writing and shooting and editing and delivering.

Video cameras are in the schools, and for good reason!

Which doesn't exactly threaten pro cameras or pro standards of shooting. I think there will continue to be more casual production, more user-generated video content.

You know, it's not just YouTube & Vimeo that love this for the market growth. Video drives growth of internet bandwidth. Video drives computer processor speed/threads, and GPU hardware support. There are lots of companies worldwide that benefit. That's not profits, that's economics...

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

And then this came out just today:

Is the camcorder dead? Mirrorless cameras are plotting to take its place

Andrew

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Most telling, if the manufacturers stop making VIDEO cameras for the consumer market, that's all there is to it.

No demand = no sales = no market to serve = no more camcorders.... it's not rocket science.... no one makes 8 track tape players anymore, AFAIK.

There is still a market for "enthusiast" level cameras with higher image quality and traditional camera controls, as well as a professional market, but we are talking lower production numbers, and higher prices that the average consumer will not be interested in paying when his iGalaxy 12 just was advertised with all the whiz bang bells and whistles and takes "pretty good" pictures and video.

Compare "pretty good" of today with "professional" of just a few years ago, and you can see why manufacturers are not likely to be putting a lot of development into dedicated devices when the consumer expects more from their phone, probably takes 99% of their photos and video with it, and has for a while now.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

So what's the difference? Camcorders have bigger lenses and sensors. Why not use the electronics from the phone and the sensor and lens together. Would not me much bigger than a good SLR zoom lens.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

It would probably make a lot more economical sense to make a super sensitive sensor in a phone but make the case so you can slide on an adapter that will take dslr lenses ...you could do the same the a viewfinder and that could be smaller production runs as the base phone is the mass produced one.

"Turn your Galaxy 15 - 12K phone into a 12K professional video camera with our simple adapters!"

It's all about the market demand of course and the manufacturers are really only interested in big sales not pleasing a small group of enthusiasts,, sad but true

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Seth, Sorry buddy, but your theory that our advanced audio skills might save us from the cell phone is dead. I can now throw away my 9 foot boom and Senni shotgun mic. As I write this there is a $50.00 cell phone boom pole with its own mic built onto the end of it. But wait! At the moment it is in the Deal Zone today at B&H for $17.00. The end is here. We are all doomed!!!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...one_stick.html

Steve

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Och.

Maybe the next great innovation will be like the Cinamaker system, but designed to sync in the smartphones we'll use for sound only. Smartphone on a stick!

What I'm getting from this rambling discussion is that when you have a computer in your pocket, hardware will matter less and less. The power is in using software to harness some basic hardware.

I'll repeat for those that have claimed a phone will never match the capabilities of a prosumer/pro camcorder because it's all automatic that a $15 app *will* let you lock focus, rack focus, manual focus, lock exposure, paint/lock white balance, etc. And rack digital zoom, with a little "bad resolution" flag if you try to go too far. That's Filmic Pro. It's really quite impressive.

Customized cases allowing more stable attachment of wide and tele lenses - already on the market.