Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I do not know, but here is a 4K Test Video from the latest (Samsung S8):

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Aside from some strange motion things.... looks pretty good, and I think we all have run into oddities with 4K and motion due to shutter speeds and frame rates!

It's actually pretty safe to say the "war" is already over, point and shoot is now "grab my phone" for a very large segment of the population (myself included). Sony has for some time been innovating and adding features to its cell phone sensor lineup, to the point where the "small sensor" camera (still or video) really has a tough time finding a reason or purpose in a "gear bag" (or pocket or purse).

There ARE "real" cameras of course, with larger sensors, better user controls, and most importantly better IMAGE QUALITY.... When appropriate, I'd rather shoot with one, for all those reasons. Whether 98.6% of the population can even notice or gives a hoot about the better results.... well, that's an entirely different ball of cheese.

Arguably, the fact that phone manufacturers rather prominently promote the CAMERA (not a peep about how awesome the phone calls are!?) in EVERY advertisement, one has to believe that it's one of the most important features to most of the consumer market, and they DO expect better quality, even if it's a step or two (OK, a bit more... maybe) below what a "professional" demands....

Sensor suppliers know that a small sensor cell phone cam module is cheaper and easier to produce, and will sell in high 6 to 7+ figure quantities, so it shouldn't be surprising that the R&D is going there, and the performance "gap" is much smaller than it used to be!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Very thoughtful post.

Here is another video, with more motion, different light situations, and sound tests:

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I now invoke Doug Jensen. :-)

Andrew

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

My iPhone7 was very helpful a few weeks ago when recording a presentation that was running long. I felt the memory card from one camera position was going to run out of space and the presenter had moved to a new position so my other un-manned camera wasn't on target any more.
With 3 minutes to go I grabbed the mini tripod and iPhone holder from the gear bag and set up a nice wide shot which I started recording with 1 minute to go so there would be plenty of sync audio available.
He actually finished with seconds to spare, but my iPhone recorded a perfectly acceptable wide shot while I switched to recording on the second card slot during the first 20 seconds of Q&A.
I was recording main audio on a different recorder, but as my good luck would have it the first question was from someone in the back of the room close to my phone and the audio was better from the phone than from my ambient mics. I was rolling again with my "real" camera by the time he started his answer.
Nothing was lost so I was very happy to have a great camera phone on me, but despite that success I won't be giving up any of my many and varied cameras, mics and audio recorders.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

There's a slight problem with that here in 50Hz land. Every phone's camera function that I've seen has only delivered 30Hz video, meaning that matching that up to 25p or 50p produces variable results.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Cell phones will eventually replace small point and shoot camera's but only for users who use the camera for personal reasons on a daily basis, smartphones have become a minicomputer that fits in your pocket and it's the convenience to take pictures or shoot video whenever you feel like it that eventually will stop people from buying dedicated camera's.

For professional users that ofcourse is not the case, a cellphone will never replace a dedicated videocamera, it might come in handy like Jay pointed out that if you have no other option your phone could be a last resort to take over for a short time but I don't see myself shooting a entire wedding or company video with it, that would be a bit ridiculous.

The samsung s8 video looks nice and detailed but there is a constant shake going on which seems to warp the image, probably because of lack of decent stabilization?

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I'm not sure why I'm being invoked because I have no opinion on this. People can shoot with what ever they want, and if a "professional" video shooter wants to use a cell phone as their tool of choice, that's great, because it just means there will be less competition for the rest of us who have clients that know the difference and will pay the difference. If saving a few thousand dollars on the cost of buying a professional camcorder is a big deal to someone, then then they are moving in different circles than I am. Pro camcorder cost nothing compared to what they can earn for a professional, what they can enable a professional to do, and how much time and effort they can save on every shoot. The cost of the camera is peanuts to a professional.

But if a pixel peeper wants to shoot on cell phone because they think that image quality is the only thing that matters, and that a cell phone is good enough, more power to them.

But other than that, I have no opinion. :-)

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I think cell phone video is *GREAT*. But, I do have one foot squarely on both sides of the fence, if there is one.

On the one hand, proliferation of pocket cams has meant that a viewer has a vast see of crap to navigate to get to the quality viewing experience they want. Note that their desired experience may be different than mine!

On the other hand, as per American journalist A.J. Liebling, "Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one." I think it's good for our society that more - many more - people have access to distribution. This is the DV revolution all over again, but this time for the masses.

As a rule, if there's one thing that phone/tablet originated video doesn't have it's good sound. A camera-mounted mic remains a very poor choice for an interior interview, though it can be fine for much b-roll.

I've taught one workshop on Mobile Filmmaking for a local community non-profit, and have a couple more scheduled. The people interested seem to be making personal documentaries, or social activists looking to create more compelling video, or developing journalists, or in one case corporate in-house training.

So, mostly not the pro market. Except that downmarket news outlets of various sorts are expecting mobile-based news reports from their contributors.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I agree with Seth, they have their place.

A few (arguably) truisms:
Content is king. (It's the story)
Casting is 85% of the movie.
Audio is 2/3rds of good video

In the news recently was some video that made for world-wide distribution. I'm talking about the passenger who was unceremoniously dragged off a United Airlines flight.

The video was apparently shot with someone's phone, apparently using it's own mic, no lighting kit, and no stabilization, yet it was viewed by many more people than anything I've ever done, or will do, with my cams with better lenses, better controls, better mics, and better kit available.

The problem with pro gear is it takes time to put the kit together and set it up for the shoot. By that time, what ever one wanted to shoot is O.B.E. At the other end of the scale, if one has more time then there is the script, the actors, rehearsing, takes, and editing, oh, and also stuff like the budget and distribution.

If whatever it is doesn't get one's attention in the first 15 seconds it's time to change the channel. There has to be something of interest and the creative content and presentation has to be there.

At least the phone operator (I didn't say cameraman) of the news event was able to get some decent camera angles and captured enough audio to fill in with the action. Others were obviously taking video too but didn't happen to have the location, or perhaps ability, to get the best angle.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

If you look at specialist apps like Filmic Pro it is possible to have control over many parameters including frame rate and bit rate:

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Anyone with half a brain for business and good shooting skills ought to be making a 6-figure income with a camera like the Sony FS7. There is tons of business out there ripe for picking. So show me anyone who is making even half of that income shooting with a cell phone as their main camera -- and then I will concede it is a professional tool. Hoping to catch a cop beating the hell of some guy while you capture it on video is not a business model.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Weelllllllllll

Here's the thing. It was mentioned on "another forum" that there are those clients for whom something like a smart phone will be "good enough".

There are clients who DON'T appreciate the difference between smart phone quality video and video from better cams, and since everyone wants to save money whenever possible, the number of those clients vs the ones who do appreciate quality could potentially grow and grow as the phones' cameras get nicer and nicer. There are plenty of smartphone rigs out there for attaching mics and other accessories as well. It's starting to seem like, unless you're on the higher end of things, the phones really are, for them, often "good enough."

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

NEWSREADER: "We interrupt this live footage from Josh Bass for an incoming phone call. Stand by."

In another potential scenario, I for one would like to see how they handle an escaped lion / hungry thing with fangs. Probably wished their phone had a zoom lens attached. :-)

Andrew

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

You silly. I didn't really mean for live applications. But there's probably a way to disable the phone and put it in "live streaming mode" or something. Or there will be. Any day.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Now that is funny stuff Andrew +1

I agree with Doug's posts.

I do not allow clients or technology to dictate how I choose to do business. If a "lowest price only" shopper calls me by accident it does not take me long to figure out they are looking for a Craigs List shooter. I politely let them know I probably charge more than they are interested in paying. It saves my time and theirs. If I loose a gig to a guy with a cell phone it is not a gig I would do in the first place.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

How do you suss them out? I have tried various flavors of "what's your budget?" And rarely am able to get an answer.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

The solution is simple: Post your rates on your website so no negotiation is ever necessary.
Doug Jensen - Freelance director of photography and cameraman

Those people who do not want the gear I own or do not want to pay the rates I charge can move on without ever wasting a second of my time. I don't even want to talk to bottom feeders. And if someone does decide to call me, I assume they know what they are getting into and we can get down to discussing their specific needs. I don't know why more people don't post their rates? I hate it when I go into a store, a used car lot, or anyplace else that doesn't post their prices. I want to be as upfront as I can and save everyone a lot of wasted time.

Of course, if someone is hiring me as a "production company" to produce a finished production rather than a day-hire freelancer who hands over raw footage at the end of the day, then obviously a custom quote is necessary. But then I need a detailed description with a consultation on WHAT the project entails. Then I will give them my non-negotiable bid. If they accept it, great. If not, I go work on something else. I don't negotiate because if I do, I'll end up working for less than my time is worth and I will also give the client the appearance that I was attempting to overcharge them in the first place. That is the wrong message to send. So if they balk at the first price I may offer them an alternative plan for the production that may fit their budget better, but that is not the same as giving them a better price. If I quote them a price for a BMW production and they have a Chevy budget, then I'll offer to give them the Chevy production at a Chevy price. But they are never going to get the BMW production for the Chevy price no matter how much they cry about it. This weeds out the crappy clients pretty fast and builds a great relationship with the good guys. Success in the video industry is all about repeat business.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I think I will try the price list thing for a while (though Lord know I don't have your client list/experience/gear list to brag about!)

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Apart from technical differences the impact of phone/tablet video has had a profound effect on the viability of certain types of previously paid for gigs where the cameraman would arrange with the event organizers to provide video services, speculating that individuals featured in the recorded activity would buy a copy.
Used to be ten years ago I could count on 30 - 50% of the participants buying a dvd or blu-ray, Nowadays it's more like 2-5% Of course you already know this. Mom and pop's pnone/tablet video is nowhere near as good as mine but to them it's free and that makes it good enough to post a snippet somewhere.
A threat to Real camcorders/cameras? yep
A threat to Cameramen - oh yeah

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I think that mainly applies to shows where children perform and where the parent is ok with their own cell phone video of their child taken from their seat; they don't care about the full performance, only the part that features their child.

For corporate videos or weddings that would never apply, companies want a professional result and for that reason they hire a professional and not shoot it themselves, same for weddings, no couple is going to collect hundreds of short clips taken by guests cell phones and then edit it themselves, there would also be a night and day difference between that result and something shot and edited by a professional videographer. I know there do exist companies that edit cell phone videos, just like they would edit your holiday films but this is mainly done by couples who have no budget for a videographer but who want something as a memory on film.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Don't kid yourself.
A tremendous amount of business has been lost by so called professionals with more and more lost every day and increasing faster and faster as the consumer gear gets better and better along with simple apps that allow for very professional looking results.
After all, a goodly portion of professionals are just regular folk who one day decided to buy a camera and see if the could get jobs with it because they liked photography and videography. Similar types of people are employed by those corporations and amoungst the guest lists of wedding parties.
Every business goes through this cycle: growth - peak - decline . What's at the end of decline (where we're at) nada

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

So you are saying weddingvideographers and corporate video shooters are loosing a tremendous amount of business by people who shoot with their iphones?

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

how could you not know this?

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

In weddingvideography at least I am not seeing any decline in requests I am getting, guess we have to wait untill the Iphone 9 comes out before I need to find another job :)

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I have to say, my recent trip to Japan I had issues with some gear A7s, RX10 and had to rely on my wife's iPhone 6 for some family video, wow beats the RX10 in the video side of things for my eyes. I think phones are perfect for a blogger or even pro use, I've never thought of using the video capabilities of a phone (iPhone) however this has me thinking.... if you could lock in focus, iso, shutter, f stop the normal things then count me in, the quality I think in good light is fantastic.

I still use an old iPhone 4 and its just about dead so have never shot video on this.
Phones I think might be a real threat for some camera companies, sure phones don't have some of the higher end specs of some DSLR, Mirrorless cameras.... time will tell, for basic blogging videos that iPhone 6 is great.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Filmic Pro is a great $15 app for iOS or Android that allows you to lock the focus, WB, and exposure settings. Not sure it will run on an iPhone 4 though.

The Sony BVP300 killed film. DV killed Beta. DSLR video killed DV. Nothing new going on here, just the normal run of winners and losers as new and revolutionary technology breaks.

Storytelling stays the same. Your iPhone may outshoot my... VX1000, but, I still know how to shoot and edit a story, that never goes out of style. The more things change the more they stay the same.

I had a colleague back in the 20th century who was a pro photographer and animation stand operator who trained at Brooks Institute. Really very good, he moved on to found his own stock agency representing his own and others' work. Digital killed the animation stand work. He didn't find the same type of clients as he used to shoot for. Re-established himself as a developer/publisher of online photography courses.

So, he came out OK, even though his market changed. And yet, there are still many, many working pro photographers.

It's a dynamic set of industries and markets for digital media production.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

To a certain degree it really doesn't matter which camera I reckon and as you mentioned seth, it's all about the story.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I have been working in corporate video for a very long time. No one is shooting a real paid gig with a phone. We are still using broadcast cameras, switchers, and engineers to shade and call shots in many situations. The lowest level of camera I have ever seen on a ballroom conference gig for a straight record was an A7S (not my gig). If I showed up on my gigs with even a DSLR or a phone to shoot with, my clients would immediately fire me. No one in the real corporate market is using a phone. It is not happening.

Even for my corporate interviews on closed sets DSLRs are unacceptable. Phones are a joke. It is not happening.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Amen...

I think particularly videographers working in the lower end who shoot low budget theaterperformances, communions and weddings have to fear phones being a replacement for their line of work much more then videographers delivering a professional specialized service.

I first thought Bruce was joking but apparently not, I honestly cannot imagine corporate shooters, like Steve, showing up on a filmset with a few tripods and phones attached to it, seriously? :)

It's not just the ridiculous thought of doing a professional shoot on a phone but just the lack of functionality having to preset everything from a touchscreen and lack of lens choices or other options that a dedicated videocamera will give you.

For weddings I have a different opinion when it comes to camera's used where bigger is not necessarily better and where photocamera's with a videofunction have primarily taken over from dedicated videocamera's. Small size, low light performance and shallower dof are one of the biggest reasons why many made the switch. I still find dslr's a big compromise when it comes to shooting video and when it comes to functionality they still are a pain to use. It's so refreshing to use a camera more geared towards video only, like my jvc ls300 to get rid of all compromises I have to make with my dslr's.

I could not imagine trusting my phone to shoot run and gun style adjusting iris, whitebalance, focus on the fly, getting my creative shallow dof shots and having it reliably shoot continuously over an hour or trusting that it will capture decent audio, again, seriously? :)

A phone is a multi-media device that is like a jack of all trades, it's there to make and receive calls, watch films, play games, surf the internet and capture those family and holiday moments to share on facebook and so many more things but it is not going to replace a videocamera fro professional use anytime soon.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

I never shot any video with a smart phone, but if this is something that is gaining in popularity, then there might be a business case for "someone" to develop a sort of "Masterclass" training syllabus on "Making Videos with your Cell Phone". I'm envisioning a book and series of video tutorials.


Mark

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Actually, a small but growing percentage of the stories showing up on the news from stations in my area are now being shot by reporters themselves (actual employees, even one news director) on smart phones. They are even blogging about doing it!

It's a natural outgrowth of putting video footage shot by the public on their phones on the air.

And the public is getting more and more used to watching cell phone video. The thought may come to them, "if it's good enough for the stations to use, why don't I use it myself?"

Plus, DYI is now big business. Stores like Home Depot don't just sell to contractors. A large portion of their business comes from Do It Yourselfers.

It's hard to compete with free. Fortunately, I've found a couple of niches with very specialized requirements where my services are a very small part of the client's overall costs.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

There are already several YouTube channels with very large followings already largely devoted to this. Of course, they are very marketing oriented, with tips on how to market using your self produced (cell phone) videos. It's hokey, but one of them may even title a lesson "How to turn your cell phone into a SELL phone."

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

But isn't that directed towards vloggers or people selling footage to news organisations? known vloggers seem to be earning quite a lot of money and for them it's content that matters, not the gear that is being used so if they are vlogging while driving around with a car, then ofcourse a cell phone will do just fine, it's the same with capturing news, a phone is always in your pocket so if something happens while you pass by and if it's something significant then that is what will be shown on tv, even if it's full of noise, shaky and out of focus.

I think mainly in news and entertainment (like vlogging) smartphones can have a clear advantage but I don't see any reason to panic that it will affect what I do. Lot's of uncle bobs at weddings that shoot video with their smartphone but none of them will ever be able to deliver what I do, those that are fine with whatever their guests are shooting on their smartphone either don't care or don't have a budget, both are type of clients I never get to deal with anyway.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

You have to separate CONTENT from the hardware, per the thread title....

Content can be captured by many devices - and the increasing quality from a small sensor phone device can be "good enuf", plus there's the "camera you have with you" aspect. Meaning that the content is captured, albeit likely in a less that stellar quality.

SO, for the typical consumer, they have ZERO reasons to buy a nice dedicated small consumer/prosumer still or video camera - that "threat" ended in the effective DEATH of that segment of the market (this was fairly obvious when I strolled down the aisle quite some time ago, at a Fry's that HAD been the "camera" aisle, and there were a few lonely "leftovers", and tumbleweeds... cameras were no longer worth giving shelf space).


PROFESSIONAL cameras and production are a somewhat different matter, but haven't we all noticed that there aren't a whole lot of "serious" cameras being introduced... guess what happened when all the R&D went to small sensor cell modules... and effectively exited the building for all but the highest $$$$ "professional" gear?

Take a good look at the structural and financial conditions of the "big boys" in imaging... Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony.... not exactly reporting huge sales growth (aside from a couple small segments). Sony and Panny have or are restructuring, Nikon cancelled an entire line of cameras before a single one was sold... Product announcements and introductions (save perhaps the GH5) are barely exciting enough to get out of bed for... <cue "I'm not dead yet" sound clip>


On the one hand, media capture has become democratized and commoditized (for better or worse), but the hardware for the "average consumer" is de facto a cell phone. There is still an "enthusiast" niche that seems to be selling, but it's not to "typical" consumers.

On the other, there is still a market for QUALITY, be it event production, corporate, or whatever. There likely will always be a market for higher end, just won't be as big, and yep, won't likely be shot on an iPhone 24 or whatever... at least not entirely....

And if anyone can say that the HARDWARE market (cameras) is going to stage a huge comeback, please contact me for this bridge, statue and beachfront land I've got, I'll make ya the deal of a lifetime!

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Mark. The first lesson should be "HOLD THE PHONE THE RIGHT WAY. HORIZONTALLY."

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

Cell phone users are professionals, they know how to hold the phone when shooting a pepsi commercial.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

And for multi-cam, they can get a pen with a video camera inside and put in their shirt pocket and wear some of those sunglasses that have a full HD video camera. Boom! OMB Multi-Cam.

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

When you mute the sound on a cell phone, so it doesn't ring when someone calls you, does that mean you can't plug in a microphone for sound recording while you are shooting video?

Re: Cell Phone Video: Threat to Real Camcorders/Cameras?
 

These are not the cameras you are looking for. (mystical wave of hand)

Andrew