Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

So my church has been shooting, recording and broadcasting our services for years. I'd say 5 or 6 years ago we started broadcasting in HD and my pastor just recently came to me and mentioned updating to all new cameras (we currently have 4 camcorders). He asked me to do some research, but I have no idea what to look for. Our budget is probably between $1,000 and $1,500 per cameras. They are all stationary on tripods. Also, our sanctuary is dark at times so we'd like to have some good low light ability. We won't need to shoot in 4K, but we do want a nice high quality image. I've looked at some Black Magic cameras and they look really nice, but obviously I'm open to recommendations

Any suggestions?

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Your budget doesn't really run to broadcast cameras - because it's not just the camera. The BlackMagics are wonderful cameras, but add in viewfinders, proper support - with heads and legs, cabling, CCUs and the rest and the figures rise dramatically. It's possible to pay $1000 for the zoom and focus demands! Plus of course the lenses, and if you really want professional standards, you need a big budget = smaller than maybe a year ago, but still big!

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Perhaps “broadcast” camera is not what I mean. I guess I should share a little about what we currently use..

We currently have 4 Canon XLH1’s. We already have nice tripods/heads for each. Each camera has a zoom and focus controller, all the cables are in place and each camera has 2 monitors to view the live view and what is coming next.

I know this may be asking a lot, but here are the things we’d like in an upgrade...

- Good dynamic range. Our stage is bright, but they like to keep the rest of the church rather dark and it often looks like the blacks are crushed with our currently camera
- Good low light. With the rest of the church being dark, it makes it challenging to get shots of the crowd without tons of noise
- Nice quality image. We don’t neeeed 4K, but I just want a camera with nice quality

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

The successor to 1/3" cameras are the 1" the cheapest one I can think of is the Panasonic UX90 for $2,000. It has lower noise and better dynamic range not crushing the blacks as much. I wouldn't consider it broadcast but it's suitable for your application.

But to be clear the issue you are describing, the audience being dark, no camera is really going to fix that. That is more of an issue of lighting and your money would be better spent on lighting instead. Any show you see on tv be it day time talk, late night, or an award ceremony the audience is professionally light like the stage itself.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

I'd suggest changing their set budget to just two cameras (one CU and one wide) but with double the budget per camera, and stick with HD resolution. At least you already have the tripods.

At least this will give you $3k per camera to work with and hopefully buy something realistic.

Andrew

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Thanks for the input Andrew. Any suggestions on a camera if I go that route?

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Thanks, I'll look into the Panasonic

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Hi Brock,

I'm not real good in this area as I only research when getting ready to buy a new camera and I'm presently enjoying the Sony PMW-300.

A cheaper version of this is the Sony PMW-X200 which may be worth spending all your budget on for just the one camera. You'll get a half inch 3-chip HD sensor for much better low light performance.

You may even purchase cheaper if you buy second hand.

As for the other camera(s)? Just keep one or two of the ones you have and use it/them for wide shots. Reckon you can get away with just two if you need to.

Your thoughts?

Andrew

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

That's a really nice camera haha. Not sure if he'd be willing to do that, but I may have to suggest it.

My pastor is currently on vacation so when he gets back I'm going to pitch him these ideas, see what his final budget is and then see what sticks. Cross your fingers lol

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Sony EX3 and Sony PMW-F3 are selling for pennies on the dollar over on eBay, I'd probably look into those. All are pro cameras, with SDI outputs and genlock, great for live broadcasts.

I'd use the F3 for angles you're not going to be changing the zoom much, and the EX3 for angles which are manned and you'll be needing a considerable zoom range from your lens.

If you must buy new (but I'd recommend secondhand, as you save a lot! Especially with a bit of patience, and EX3/F3 cameras are very common), then I'd probably be getting a Sony X70 camcorder then.

Although the EX3/F3 are a little long in the tooth they'd still be a massive massive MASSIVE leap forward over your old Canon XLH1 cameras. As the EX3 and F3 were top notch cameras for their day. Heck, I'm still using my Sony PMW-F3 to this day, just the weekend back last week I was filming a feature film with it:

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

I know it’s hard to know the fine details about every camera, but would you suggest these Sony’s over the Panasonic UX90?

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Might I suggest a Sony X70 or X90? Camcorder build & ergonomics, power zoom, no worries about external lenses, HDMI & SDI out, 1" sensor, full manual controls, Multi Interface port for external/tripod zoom handle.

You could go with 1 or 2 X70s for the 'main' cameras, then AX100 for the secondary. Same camera essentially, with less manual control buttons & no SDI.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

I notice the word "broadcast" mentioned right at the start of this discussion so am I to assume that also refers to the fact that the services are recorded and live broadcast too? Surely camera choices must include a suitable output feed and it would be useful to know whether the services are edited live too. All this information should really be factors to considered?

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Yes, a combination of X70 or Z90 (not X90) would be worth consideration - the Z90 has better low light and a bit cleaner gain. It even has Log options, HDR options, 4K, better slow motion, and much better autofocus but those probably don't matter in your usage.

Current approx. B&H prices:
X70 without 4K - $1,800
Z90 - $2,800
NX80 - $2,300 - same as Z90 except no 10-bit 4:2:2 HD and records in XAVC-S rather than XAVC-L

These all look the same and use the same batteries, accessories, etc.

The AX series, as mentioned, is a consumer version of these cameras, with the older AX100 the consumer version of the X70 @ $1,400. The AX700 is the newer model with the better sensor and AF from the Z90 @ $1,900. These also use the same batteries as the X70 and Z90.

Good luck!

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

The Panasonic is better suited for your application. The Sony models mentioned use smaller consumer sized bodies and lens without out a lot of reach. While smaller, lighter cameras are an advantage for handheld or travel those attributes work against when using traditional tripod heads that need enough weight to work properly.

Like someone said if you’re streaming/broadcasting or plan to do either in the future you need to consider how the cameras and mixer will be connected hdmi or sdi.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

I agree that the OP has not really told us details like this. However, only the AX series Sonys are considered consumer models. The X70 and Z90 are in Sony's XDCAM pro line, and do allow streaming, XLRs, hdmi, and sdi. They also have a 12x zoom vs. 15x on the Panasonic, but also include the excellent Clear Image Zoom. That's a sensor zoom, not a digital zoom, and retains excellent quality up to 24x.

The OP just needs to do more research on what fits his needs.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Thanks for all the comments.

Our cameras are currently hooked up via HD-SDI. We currently stream to Facebook and to YouTube each service. We also record every service and mix it with vMix live.

Here is a quick sample of what our services look like with our current setup.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

With that many people on stage during the singing section of the service (20:34) it's definitely a Pentecostal church. :-)

You seem to be doing quite well as it is when it comes to footage apart from getting a proper close up shot of the preacher.

Andrew

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Hahaha yep definitely Pentecostal!

So that service was with one person on our main camera and me switching upstairs while also remotely controlling a camera from up there as well. We had two cameras that were unmanned that service.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

looked good. I can see what you mean about the audience being dark.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Brock,

I second the X70s from Sony. I use them for years now, not in a church setting, but in lots of low light situations. Their picture is clean, even at over +20dB gain. You can find them slightly used or as new/store returns for $1300-1500 a piece.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

For your purposes? Yes.

Even though technically many would see it has a "better camera" (well... maybe, debatably).

For two key reasons:

1) SDI output! Important for any kind of lengthy cable runs, rather than dealing with HDMI

2) these are much cheaper on eBay! And I know a church would have a tight budget, and the likes of an F3 or EX3 are still very fine cameras.

Yes, if I was buying new I'd probably go the path of a mix of X70/AX100 cameras.

(AX100 lack the SDI output, but short HDMI runs are fine enough if you're using the AX100 only for the cameras closest to the live video desk)

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Hi Brock,

My church is again preparing to upgrade our video capabilities. Last time, the church was sold a bunch of expensive, already obsolete at that time, crap. That bothered me greatly.

This time, I've been contributing my two cents to the process. For a long time, I kept mentioning the lighting, especially in the nave (where the services are held). Guess what, they listened and changed the lighting. HUGE, major, major improvement with very little outlay of funds.

Again, HUGE. Whatever camera you are using, good light really helps.

Second, I've been talking about not buying into obsolescence. Everything is being networked. Even video. I streamed a funeral service for a a friend on Facetime using her phone. Relatives a thousand miles away watched live. The old approach cannot do that. I'm stressing that video over IP is the way to go. I've read lot's of new stuff shown at NAB last couple of years. SDI is just about obsolete.

Check out this video:

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

This.


After seeing Brocks video and taking into consideration there is only a very limited budget for new camera's it doesn't make much sense to "upgrade" if the current camera's still perform well, the XL-H1 was a semi-professional camera that if sold today (but with a modern codec) would be at least a 6K camera.


Upgrading the lights would be much more cost efficient and make the service look that much better, those xl-h1 need light and once you provide that they can deliver a excellent image.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Some of the footage looks good. Some not so good.

You need to ask a few hard questions first.

Why does the pastor want new cameras? Does he hope this move will increase the size of the audience?

What is the reason for your streaming? Is it so people who attend your church can see it at home if they're sick, or just can't be bothered going to church that day? If that's the case what you have is probably good enough.

Or is it to attract non Christians or people who don't attend your church? Then I'm sorry to say you have quite a few issues to tackle. Not just cameras. I've had quite a bit to do with christian television and getting church services broadcast. Content is King. Not sometimes, but ALWAYS! An hour and a half in length. Fine for the people who know your church. But for outsiders. It's boring. Frightfully boring. I'm used to watching hours of christian television services, but I couldn't sit through all yours for several reasons. I just had to skim through.

Let's look at content. The worship music. Far far too long. I assume you are in the U.S. For me sitting on the other side of the world the worship was lacklustre to the extreme. Live music is very very hard to pull off. The average church just can't do it. Acoustics of the venue are an issue, You need polished performance from your musicians. The singers lacked energy, swaying back and forth as though they were mesmerized. Worship music is a hard call to broadcast. Either do it properly or don't.

There was a ministry segment. Cut this bit much shorter, or out all together. Audio too low.

The sermon. The best part. The pastor could hold an audience but the production just let him down badly. He did need to make more connection with the viewer though. Shots too wide, he walked out of the light, face poorly lit.

Not enough closeups. All shot far to wide. The lighting as stated before. Not at all good. Faces poorly lit, shadows on faces. Little or no back light. or rim light you may call it. Added to that the cameras were not always in focus. You can't just set a camera up, focus it, then let it run for an hour and a half. As the camera warms up focus will begin to drift.

So finally the cameras. I'm very familiar with the Canon XL range. I made 26 half hour programs on three xl1 years ago. I'm very familiar with the xl2 and xlh1 series as well. If you are using xl h1s cameras with uncompressed sdi you should be getting a far, far better picture than you are getting.

More light. Focus the cameras. You may need a better monitor if you are using the viewfinder on the cameras. I'm shooting some God spots on xlh1s at the moment recording uncompressed sdi to Blackmagic video assist monitor recorders. They have a focus assist feature. You will be surprised how sharp a picture you can get.

Sorry I've been a bit hard on you but I'm passionate about broadcasting the christian message.

God Bless,
Owen.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Owen speaks the truth and plenty of it. I second his thoughts.

Back in what I think was the 1990s, there was a large church I was attending where they must have decided it would be a really good thing to have 45 minutes of praise+worship songs at the beginning of the service. So what did I do? A carpooling friend and myself decided to deliberately arrive 30 min late so we only had to endure the last 15 minutes of it.

Here's the kicker ... we soon noticed that others were doing this as well.

Eventually the church heads must have noticed the pattern and things were changed. Not before a significant chunk of time had passed.

I certainly noticed that your music audio was probably the house PA feed. Truth is you need a dedicated mix if you're going to have it sound good.

Looking forward to hearing what the pastor wants to achieve.

Andrew

PS. How many worship leaders does it take to change a light bulb? Only one. They stand there and hold it whilst the world revolves around them. :-)

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

I have to agree with Owen too ... replacing cameras only is like putting racing stripes on your car and hoping it will go faster!! You really need the pastor to look at the overall system and decide what needs to change.

Owen has mentioned content and it's so important to make a production that people will want to actually watch but this sadly might touch a few nerves with the pastor. However if you are going to stream out a service to others the content has to be something that will appeal to them ... As a live stream videographer myself I often cringe at some of the content I have to record and broadcast at wedding reception of which I have no control ..wedding ceremonies run to a fairly exact program so they are often more appreciated but the audience. You really need to update your audio as it's just as important as video and with the sample you posted the level is horribily low which won't go down well with viewers at all. I would seriously look at both audio and lighting before even thinking about cameras!

Yes as Noa says .. sort out the lighting it will be the fraction of the cost of 3 new cameras and make a HUGE difference!! .. Maybe overall look at your topic not as "Broadcast Cameras for Church" but as " Upgrade our Worship Broadcast" .. Update the overall environment in which the current cameras have to operate and you might just find you don't need to update the cameras at all??

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Owen preached the truth.

However I have disagree with the earlier "obsolescence" point.
SDI is an industry standard, all you need is an video switcher with SDI inputs.
And for people on a budget there can be MASSIVE savings by buying secondhand from a generation or two ago rather than buying the "latest and greatest" new products.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

So do you think this is not close enough? This is traditionally where our camera operator leaves the shot during the sermon. I think they do this because he tends to move around and this makes it easier to follow him, but you are saying we should move it closer? I'm just clarifying

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Thanks Owen for your detailed response. I'm looking forward to helping our church move in the right direction and this is exactly the type of response I needed.

As for our services and it's format, there's not too much I can do. They kind of do their own thing. This broadcast is streamed on our facebook page and youtube and often gets shared by our members. It's biggest use is letting people watch who can't be in service that day, have moved or consider themselves part of us but don't actually attend. We have had random people come to us because of these broadcasts, so that is obviously part of it as well. I say all that to say - these services aren't really edited - we do an edited TV show once per week that's 28 minutes and much more condensed. For that, we remove the music and only have the sermon. What I linked to earlier was simply a live stream of our service which we do three times per week.

Great suggestions on the sermon and how the pastor walked in an out of the light and how we could light him better. I mentioned this to him yesterday and he was 100% on board with starting with all new lights and making sure it looks the best it can before we consider new cameras. So in your recommendation, we need some rim light and better stage lights that will evenly light the stage and remove shadows? Currently our stage lights are pretty close to the stage, so perhaps if we move them back a bit, that would help with shadows. Pastor mentioned getting some LED lights, do you think this is OK? Any suggestions on what type of lights we consider getting?

Part of our issue with our shot selection is we have 4 cameras but rarely have camera operators. I run one upstairs and we almost always have someone on the camera straight back, but we rarely have someone on our side cameras. I think eventually we will get to a system where we get new cameras and just run them all remotely, but we aren't there yet unfortunately

I'll have to look into the focusing issue - thanks for bringing that up.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, this is great

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

This is more what I was thinking about. Granted, given that he moves about a bit, I otherwise totally agree with your choice.

Andrew

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

As far as LED lights go the professional spotlights or fresnels are very expensive ($800+), you could also get general purposes led lights for a fraction of the price at your local home improvement store. They’re selling now the long florescent led replacement that could be good for general flat lighting that is best for video. The problem you’ll find is how to safely install them especially if it’s a high ceiling.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

If he is moving around a lot then it is tough indeed to go any tighter at all, especially if all the cameras are unmanned as the OP indicates.

But if you have a skilled operator then it should be easy enough to go even tighter.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Hello Brock,

Thank you. I had been thinking I was a bit tough in my remarks. Thank you for taking it in the manner I hoped you would.

As far as lighting goes LED is the way the industry is on track. It's much cooler than tungsten The cheaper LED as suggested by Pete. They all need to be the same so the colour temperature matches.

Can you put the word out among your congregation that you are looking for camera operators. Some cameras locked off on a tripod, but to lift your production to a new level you can't beat having camera operators.

As you have four cameras I suggest you have two camera in a central position. One locked off wide, the entire stage and peoples heads in the front row. The other central camera on a close follow, say from the elbows up which needs a operator. One camera each on left and right stage from a front angle. Covering the pastor on a full figure frame. Preferably manned. So when the pastor is centre stage catch him on a close follow. Then when he moves to either left or right cut to the camera he is walking towards. Hopefully the close follow can keep up, as soon as you have a stable close shot cut to it. You always have your rear wide shot as a fallback shot you can cut to any time to get out of any trouble. Always have a shot of the pastor walking towards a camera, not away from it. This is always where your wide locked off shot comes in. If you stick to an easy formula soon both you and your camera crew will fall into an easy rhythm. You'll end up with a pretty polished show.

A good example of a large area and a pastors that move about is on SBN. Jimmy Swaggart's set up. Putting theology aside for a moment you will see a very polished professional production that is easy to watch. Answers with Bayless Conley is another. These pastors have huge budgets and professional crew but you will be amazed with what you can do.

With audio always get a direct feed off the pastors radio mike. Not one that comes through the house audio system.

Now for the hard bit. Broadcast tv/video has different requirements for both audio and lighting. You are going to walk a tight rope as I have seen quite a bit of friction in my time between the TV crew and the house crew. You can handle it. TV seems to bring out the worst in people!

All the best with your venture. You are amazing. I'm sure you and your pastor are doing a great job. Be encouraged.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Sorry I'm just now getting back and responding on this

We've been working the last few months to make things better and while it doesn't seem like much, it's been better.

We added new shotgun mics at the front pointing to the crowd. We used to get almost no crowd noise so if the crowd was clapping and the pastor stopped to let them finish, it would simply look like he stopped speaking and nothing was happening. That has been addressed.

I guess I could ask this question - the old media director had the cameras shooting 60fps and then streaming at 30fps. This had me confused and wondering if that was standard in live streaming. I'm used to shooting my own footage and delivering so I simply changed all the cameras to 30fps so I can brighten everything up a bit. I wouldn't imagine anything would change that much, but perhaps I'm missing something

Our lighting hasn't changed much, but I'm moving in the right direction. I finally got around to messing with the cameras and apertures were all over the place - so I fixed that and brightened everything up.

We still have an issue where the light on the singers is great, but the moment one of them steps forward to the podium, they become really over exposed. I'm trying to get that issue fixed this week. I'd love to move all the lights back so they didn't hit our singers and speakers at such a sharp angle, but we will see if that happens.

Thanks everyone for the encouragement! I'll keep on keeping on

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

Wowza. Going from 60fps to 30fps would have to be the simplest and cheapest upgrade ever, allowing a slower shutter speed and therefore more light capture for each frame of video. Yup, that's an excellent improvement.

As far as I am aware, streaming at 60fps (if your encoder etc allows it) would be fairly niche and next to nobody at the receiving end would ever notice or even appreciate it. For your operation 30fps is the way to go.

Would be interested to see an updated example of footage you are recording.

Andrew

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

If you follow the 180 rule then 30fps would need 1/60 shutter and necessary for the slow frame rate. Shutter at 1/60 would also be fine for 60P but you would get twice as many frames for movement when you went to 30P the motion blur would be the same as shooting at 30P. I shoot 60P all the time with 1/60 shutter in the theatre.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

I re-read this and decided that the actual religious element was actually irrelevant. You want excellent, broadcast quality images from subjects that are not trained, In a building poorly suited in terms of acoustics and lighting, plus you have perfectly good cameras that are abandoned and suffer from under or over exposure, and worst of all, in the hands of non-camera people. This ALWAYS means they zoom out to have too work less at focus and movement. You want the equipment to run itself. No proper director or engineers, camera people or sound facilities. You cannot throw money at a project and forget the humans. A place near me has hundreds of thousands investigated in a superb installation. Yet no camera operators, just fixed position, or joystick controlled cams, and one on a cheap pan head within grips of the person mixing. They have wonderful lighting in bucketloads, and a reactive engineer, not a pro-active camereman. People who move mean cameras that move, with focus that changes smoothly and apertures that can react correctly to over exposure or deliberate wrong exposure for effect.

Mics on the audience? Fine if somebody can ride the faders, but if they're left up, then it messes up the clarity. Shotguns are also risky. What happens if the worst singers sit in the 'beam' and the better singers don't?

Good video requires people, and skilled trained people at that. A good director can talk a novice crew through a show. Amateurs doing best guess camerawork can result in every shot available being rubbish.

Who cares if it's SD, HD, SDI or IP delivered? All that matters is quality. That is what gives the game away. Remember that with our wonderful TV sets at home, much of the output we enjoy so much are re-runs of SD material. The BBC here still get excellent viewing figures for 4:3 SD from the 70s/80s. They still look like broadcast because they had sharp focus, steady cameras and decent audio. 4K wobblycam with awful but high quality sound just don't cut it in the professionalism stakes.

Re: Broadcast Cameras for Church
 

I agree with what you said. I think people want an easy solution aka buy a newer camera instead of all the things you mentioned. In a scenario like this all you can do is identify the weakest parts and try to improve them. It will yield a better result but not professional one you see on tv. Add some lights...

It’s hard to get around the problems of unmanned video and audio and unskilled operators.