Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Some very creative people are on the spectrum.

https://the-art-of-autism.com/6-crea...nd-filmmakers/

https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisp...tism-spectrum/

However, Ryan doesn't seem to be making the leaps that these people are making in exploring the world as they see it.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

few things

first, I believe he DID do the skills audit and it told him he was good at planning. he said he didnt know how to apply that to filmmaking.

Regarding the spectrum, I’m no expert at all but I have met a few “high functioning” people on it (those who can more or less live a full life as opposed to the sadder cases where people cant communicate at all or simply stare at walls all day). My layman’s observation is that being on the spectrum, even when high functioning, affects people differently and manifests differently. It ranges from being something you would never notice unless maybe you knew the person really well/for a long time to people who very much seem “challenged”.

For instance Jesse Eisenberg has Aspergers and Darryl Hannah is autistic. Would you have ever known that? Not that theyre writers/directors. Or maybe they are.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Brian thanks for sharing. I wasn’t aware of that.

One thing I would caution is it is a spectrum. Just because one might share a broad diagnosis with someone one famous doesn’t mean that one could enjoy the same success at what they do. Many geniuses or great artists are often not what we deem normal because in order to achieve great things you can’t think like everyone else. While finding exceptions to the rule may serve as an inspiration, I think it would be far more helpful to look at the individual. I don’t know if you or someone else suggested he take a test to better learn what he is capable of.

The inflexibility, singular purpose, and obsession might be helpful for a genius while those same characteristics will lead someone of limited aptitude down a dead end going in circles.

edit: it was Josh who suggested the audit. Yes Ryan is definitely a planner.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Right...see my post above

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

It is very much an individual thing, like where they are on the spectrum and other factors,

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

When you say that I went to film school and that didn't work, and that I worked on movie sets and that didn't work, what about those didn't work? The film school was fine, and I did a fine job on the move sets it seemed. What about them didn't work?

Do you think perhaps I should try to improve my aptitude then?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

I think that you need to understand your capabilities, that way you would not waste your time. You have the ability to pick out a few sentences from a huge post, and focus in on them in ways the writer did not remotely expect.

If you cannot remember, we heard all about the things you were fed at the film school, that sadly, like here, you misunderstood, or got the context wrong. We keep telling you that the school was terrible because frankly, what you learned there was totally misunderstood - totally! They clearly didn't notice you got the wrong end of the stick. You told us of all sorts of problems - have you forgotten? You have this wonderful ability to shut out negatives and ignore them, rather than do something about them?

I'm really not sure you understand us, and we certainly don't understand your thought processes at all.

You clearly want to make movies, and I think you probably could - but your need to constantly build a rule book and need everything broken down to levels where you can allow yourself to believe it. You also have a very under-developed appreciation of success and failure.

I really think there is not much we can do to assist you remotely. Do you have any close friends skilled in movie making? They would be the best way to learn. I'm not sure it works at a distance.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh okay, I thought that even though film school, I had some problems there with the projects I asked about, I thought it went well overall.

I have a couple of friends who have also made movies that I worked with. I have learned some things from them but there are other things I want to do, that they do not in filmmaking as well. I feel that my style I guess you could call it, is different than theres, so I cannot learn everything from them of course.

As for constantly building a rule book, well I am told I do things the wrong way in filmmaking and that I go outside the box too much, so if that's true, I wanted to have some rules or guidelines as to what people want. I could make a movie where I have no rules, and it's directed and shot in a completely original way by me, but not sure if people will accept an attempt at re-inventing of the wheel.

But I was told I would do a lot better if I could get better actors and a better DP, if that's true.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Although better actors and DPs will assist, you don't seem to have a different vision on how you tell a story. if anything you impose restrictions. You seem to have difficulty with the most basic stuff like "the line", rather than producing individualistic films, they tend towards the televisual.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh okay, so should I ignore the restrictions then like the line for example and still hope it turns out well? Are they more televisual cause of the lighting, or the shot choices themselves, or both?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

No, you should understand the line, otherwise things won't cut together, it should be a natural process for you, not a struggle.

They are televisual because you're relying on dialogue without much sub text.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh okay. Thanks, I will try work on subtext more then.

There is one thing I was thinking of doing for this next project. In the past, I would shoot a master shot first, then go in for closer ups after. The actors always gave the better performances in the later takes. But this means that if I want the best performance, I have to use the close up almost all the time, if I shoot the close ups last.

I was thinking, I should shoot the coverage shots in the order of what shot I want the performance to be the best one. So for example, if I want to have a scene where most of the scene is the master shot in the edit, then I should shoot the master last, cause the performances will be best in the master more likely then. Does that sound like a good idea, to shoot the last shots, where you want to have the best performance?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

That's why it's usual to shoot the master shot first because the better takes are usually in the closer shots, where you want them.

In practice, the master shot may not be used in the final cut, so it acts as a rehearsal for the closer shots, especially if you've got limited time.

If using master shot for most of the scene, shoot the number of takes needed for a good performance. The master allows everyone to see where everything goes including the DP and director, otherwise you risk painting yourself into a corner, so best shot first.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh yes I thought we could set it up so that nothing would be in the way of the master if we did it last. But if shooting more takes on it instead is best than I can do that... I just feel in past projects I relied on close ups too much for performance and want wider shots used more.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Just do more takes, so you get the performance in the wider shots. If those are the ones you're going to use you need the performance.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh okay thanks I will do that. Another thing I don't want to do in what other filmmakers I worked with have done, is they go for more of that soap opera look where, it's a master shot, and singles of each actor after. But it feels like of soap opera-ish or sitcom-ish, at least to me to shoot that way, so I feel I need to choose my own shots based on emotional beats instead. Is this overcomplicating things for myself?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

I think this was covered in another thread, You don't need to shoot everything, don't cover every actor with a CU if you/re not going to use them all and you've got MCUs or other shot sizes. however, make sure you've got overlaps to allow choice in cutting points and the actors to ramp up their performances.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Emotional beats? Not quite sure I understand what you mean?

I must admit I'm often confused now between genres. My favourite US TV series is NCIS, and watching it last week noticed a very unusual shot and I'mnot sure I liked it or not. Two people have a calm and serious conversation, and the camera went round in a circle around each actor - but it still did the usual cuts between them as one stopped speaking and the other started, but they blocked it so that as the person out of shot's head appeard about to block the face, they cut, then repeated it over and over again. This isn't conventional TV, but it's not really cinema either? I don't know that I liked it - I found it a bit intrusive. It made me think about technical aspects, and stop following the plot?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

I'm not sure about the emotional bests aspect or if Ryan has any sense of these, although the term "beats" within a scene does get used, but less in the shot coverage and more with the dramatic points during script writing (or at least on courses), it also gets used for timing purposes for the actors.

There was less coverage when shooting film, because of the cost and you needed a reasonable budget to get over 6 to 1 shooting ratio, This may have affected the style of shooting on films, together with the cutting speed, which is generally faster today because you can shoot the greater coverage. TV producers also like the latter, because it gives them greater control of the final cut.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh that's interesting. Well in my experience with other filmmakers I worked with they will get a master and CUs, but if there is an emotional change in the character or situation, I feel that the shot should be changed along with that emotional change sometimes, but they never do it, which made me think I should have shot changes like that marked throughout the script, rather than allowing the same shots, to carry the entire scene if that makes sense?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh well sometimes I feel I need to shoot enough coverage though. For example one of the short films I did before, every take of the master shot was slightly out of focus I noticed later. So I had to scrap the master shot completely and rely on the close ups. But if I didn't have those close ups, then I couldn't have done that.

Oh that's interesting. Well in my experience with other filmmakers I worked with they will get a master and CUs, but if there is an emotional change in the character or situation, I feel that the shot should be changed along with that emotional change sometimes, but they never do it, which made me think I should have shot changes like that marked throughout the script, rather than allowing the same shots, to carry the entire scene if that makes sense?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

I've still not understood Ryan - the shot should be changed with the emotional change? I have no idea what you mean?

I think I've just lost the plot here.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

It's up to the DP/camera operator to call soft shots. On a wide shot, with shorter focal length, there can be issues like the back focus being out, however, this should be checked before the production starts shooting. If they can't spot the shot being soft, it's probably due to the monitoring not being up to the job, which is likely given the budget levels.

You don't need to cut or have a change of shot for an emotional change, the actors are capable of doing that with their performance. It all depends on the nature of the scene, there's no rule.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh well what I mean is, is that sometimes if the director wants to change to do a different emotional perspective, they will change the angle of the shot, if that makes sense?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Allow me to (attempt to) translate Ryanese:

I believe he means a scenario (and this is cheesy and hamfisted I know) like two women friends chatting merrily. Maybe we’re going back and forth between 2shot and medium CUs of each. One casually says something about seeing the other’s husband at a bar other night. Mood changes... other lady says wait, her husband said he was working late that night! This line gets a closer CU/maybe more dead on angle than we’ve seen before in the scene thus far. I assume THAT’s the kind of thing he means

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Yes that's what I mean. The filmmakers I have worked with will not change the shot based on changes like that and still have the same CU for example run for the entire scene.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

It's a bit soap opera, but you can do that, it really depends on the scene and the nature of the production. There's no rule about what you do, a wide shot be used as well, the camera can crane, everything can freeze in stillness, it depends on the dramatics of the scene. .

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh okay. What I meant was is that it's soap opera-ish when filmmakers do not change up the shots when the emotions change and they go for those same master and CUs for the entire scene. I don't feel I can do that like they do, when it comes to my own shot choices...

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Soap operas usually do change the shots because they're so on the nose.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

I do it too but in my defense all I've ever done are comedies and they can be a little intentionally cheesy/cornball and it works.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh well soap operas do do a lot of obvious cutting but what I mean is, but I feel like they are using the same types of shots over and over, where as I like to change it up, unlike filmmakers I worked with before. Soap operas and sitcom cut on emotion but they use the same types of shots over and over, rather than more original shots based on the situation if that makes sense.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Soap operas have extremely tight shooting schedules, so they have to work fast. However, they usually have multi camera set ups and the larger budget ones have experienced camera operators, so they can do pretty complex stuff at key emotional moments. They also have actors who are generally very good and can work fast.


Lower budget ones will have greater limitations, with less experienced directors and writers and even tighter schedules. .

The films you seem to be working on have all of that, plus shooting single camera with inexperienced cast and crews

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Instinct seems to be lacking here. Am I the only one who decides things on the fly, when they happen unexpectedly. I mean the lightbulb that goes on and says - ah, pull out a bit and let that sign into the frame, or go in a bit to capture 'that look', or go up with that thoughtful expression, or drop down and look up for the evil response - all that kind of stuff. You look at the scene, you look at the monitor and change things there and then. No planning - it's just obvious. In live work you get quite good at watching the frame and predicting events, and get ready for them - and if they happen, you aren't surprised and capture them. Intuition, second sight, I don't know how, but somehow you just know. Of course sometimes it doesn't work, but that's fine.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

That does happen. even on dramas. Everything is usually planned, but it tends to be a case of being covered in case we can't come up with something better on the day. Camera operators will make suggestions, which do get picked up and get added or the actors do something and it gets added.

I've worked on dramas and the coverage was being made up as we went along.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh okay. I did a shoot like that a couple of times, where script changes where made on a tight schedule and didn't have time to redo the storyboards, so we just made the shots up as we went along. It went okay, I felt, but I look back and feel it could have been planned better, so I always like to plan if I can of course.

I guess I don't like the multicamera set up, that I have worked with on other people's shoots before, because the cameras are all on one side of the room, pointed in a certain way towards everything, where as the single camera set up, I can put the camera wherever I want.

On soap operas and sitcoms, all the angles are very diagonal looking, which is good for some shots, but all of them are. This gives the movie a very limited feel for me, and do not want all my shots looking diagonal, if that makes sense. I'd rather just put the camera where I want for any emotional beat in the script.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Soaps are about speed, some of the old 1960s TV dramas shot with video cameras in multi camera studios have more cinematic camera work than your films.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh okay. Well, what was I saying was is that I find myself not being able to use the same styles as the people I have worked with, and wanted to do my own, even though, I have less experience with it, compared to working with them, if that's best. But then again, with a multicamera set up, it captures continuity better when cutting, so there is that...

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

You don't need to use the same style as the people you know. However, it does need to be consistent with the story your trying to tell.

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

I don't think I have ever copied the style of any director or movie creator. I always tend to find style you develop yourself, using established guidelines far more creative. It's the same with music. I work closely with a concert pianist - and in our separate projects we bounce the completed thing off each other, and this morning he mentioned one of my pieces that is doing quite well and he said, after that diminished chord, why did you pick the second inversion of G Major and not just move the B down to Bb? I had to really think - and then said I dod it because I liked the effect. He said I'd never have even tried that, but it works doesn't it? If you do something and it works - it's good.

I really cannot imagine studying a moviemaker's output and trying to copy shots - surely each one is chosen because it's right in that context? Change the context and the shot might fail?

Re: At what point do you decide to reveal a twist in a screenplay?
 

Oh well I just meant it was said before to learn from other directors on sets, but when I am on set, I tend to go very different than they do so far, is just what I was saying.