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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
I agree with Brian. You might have a great script, but if you don't have the budget to get the cast, crew, and equipment, the final result will be bad. Imagine if someone gave you the script for Star Wars and you tried to shoot it on a very limited budget (which seems to be your financial situation). The result would be sad, maybe even laughable; maybe you'd never even get to the end of the script.
I think you are trying to make a seven-course meal when all you have is a pound of ground beef, paper plates, and five dollars cash. You would be better off to buy some buns and do a really good job of making the best possible hamburgers. In other words, "realistic expectations" that are matched to your level of experience and budget. You mentioned an example about not having handcuffs. If you couldn't afford a $10 set of handcuffs, what was your actual budget for that project? Did you, or did you not, have someone in charge of props for that project? More specifically, what is your total budget for shooting this particular script that we're now discussing (ad nauseam)? You're asking some very experienced people for very specific advice. I think you would get better answers if we knew very specifically what your total project budget is. How many dollars, give or take 10%? An actual number? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
I quite like the submarine idea, but the cost of the set would be huge - the guys building home aircraft cockpit simulators spend tends of thousands on just that small bit - building even the control room would require serious money to even consider.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
The submarine is a perfect example of you coming up with ideas without thinking through how it would be produced, the costs, the sets, the cast, etc. I have a hunch sub movies aren't filmed on subs but are mostly filmed on Hollywood constructed sets.
A large part of your problems stem from not being able to execute the fundamentals used on a pro set. It's easy to write in your screen play, gun battle, car chase, or even something as simple as dolly in. But if you don't have the expertise the experience, resources, or staff to pull it off. What's the point of spending all this time refining a script for a movie you can't produce. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh yeah, I did the submarine idea as more of a mental exercise rather than something I wanted to make with my money now, but others told me that it was my best idea and to find a way to make it.
But I would really like to do the other script since it can be made in realistic locations theoretically. I was able to raise 30K, and can maybe add 20 of my own. One of the reasons I haven't made it yet, is I want to find more actors to choose from. But it is the lowest budget script I have access to that I think would be good, compared to some other ones that even though are low budget, don't think would be as good. So I am trying to find a balance. But I do feel I could pull it off as long as I had the right cast, the right small crew, such as DP, make up, etc, and good enough locations around where I live. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Going with the best script/story is always best. Audiences aren't interested the fact you can find "realistic locations", they invest in the story, not the locations.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Well - I thought I'd see if I could find a real submarine where a movie could be made and I found one available as a location for a very modest sum, and while you'd need to do some of the common movie tricks with lighting, being a WW2 submarine, there are no computer screens, but lots of levers, wheels and meters. I've also found a location available that would probably go hand in hand - an ex-cold war nuclear bunker, filled with the kit - so again for a modest fee it would be a brilliant place for a typical movie thriller.
Building a set would be hugely more expensive, and rather pointless. Ryan - you really need to invent a scoring system for your advice giving friends. Some seem to dish out sensible, grounded advice and others are bordering on being idiots. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Although, this depends on your skillset. If you're a director with the skills to design and build a set. plus access to suitable old scrapped industrial/marine/aerospace kit, you can do a surprising amount on limited funds.It costs mostly your time.
Some of the most iconic film props are just re-purposed old stuff bought on the cheap. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, well as far as a WW2 sub goes, the story deals with sub being a nuclear one, so I don't think a WW2 looking one would pass therefore, but maybe I am wrong.
But even if I do not make the submarine one, don't I still have to make some sort of low budget feature film to try to break into the business? Every other filmmaker I have worked with has done, so isn't that what you have to do break in, or is that not the way to try to break in and I am going about it wrong? It was also said before that when it comes to directing the other script I was interested in directing, that I should choose a script that is modest rather than something that is overly ambitious. How do you keep a script from being ambitious, or what is the key to keeping it modest? I thought all feature film scripts were ambitious to a degree, but is there something about it that is overly ambitious compared to other ones? I thought that if I chose a lower budget horror thriller script, that that genre would be better to do a on a microbudget, but perhaps that is not the right genre for micro, and I should have chosen something more low key, like a drama or comedy perhaps? But other filmmakers have said to avoid drama or comedy because they are tougher sells in the independent market compared to horror and thriller, unless that is wrong advice again? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
With your experience and budget you should be doing something like this (I thought this movie was awesome by the way, even though it's not exactly your genre):
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2866360/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0 It has no special FX to speak of, no stunts, gunplay, fighting (with the exception of a few very small scenes of violence), explosions, etc. It's all in houses and neighborhood streets. Just a cool plot/idea, and the whole thing relies on the strength of that. What makes yours overly ambitious is...everything...every overturned car, gunfight, etc. You want to keep this SIMPLE. SIM. PLE. Something like "Tape" with Ethan Hawke. That may not sound "cool" or "exciting" but it's what you MIGHT be able to actually pull off. Big budget action stuff? Not so much. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, but the problem is with the writing is that for example with guns, when criminals want to commit crimes, they are going to want to bring guns because it makes the crimes a lot more easier to commit and a lot more easier to get people to do what you say. Plus when the police go after such villains to try to catch them, they will logically bring guns to.
So how do you cut out the guns, without cutting out the logic of the story? I don't have to have the car flip, that was just more of a bonus if I could pull it off. But I think if I am to set the story in modern day America, the police are going to bring guns, which means the villain is going to want to bring a gun to a gun fight, wouldn't he? I mean as far as not having guns go, perhaps I could set the movie in a country like the UK, but then I have to try to make it seem like the UK, and the actors would have to fake accents. Or is there a better way to write the guns out a horror thriller script? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Youre completely missing the point of what I was trying to say. Scrap or at least shelve the whole idea/movie, start over with a brand new simple idea/script that has nothing to do with the serial rapist/cop thriller.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, but every time I try to write new scripts, the budget always goes up because when you try to develop a story, things have to happen, and it's hard not to let the characters do those things, without causing the story to become illogical. It happens every time I write, and characters do not know they are in a movie, so they cannot make decisions to stay within a budget, without it being illogical or noticeable.
Or there are times when the characters do not have to make decisions that will cost more money, but then I find it not as compelling, or interesting and figure if I don't find it dramatic or compelling, to save on money, than neither will the audience. But they say that horror movies are easier to do on a lower budget but how is that when stunts cost more money? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
I dont know what to tell you on that one. It comes down to imagination.
The writer(s) of Tape and Coherence (movie I linked to above) and Primer managed to do it. Im sure there are countless other examples. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, good point. I guess I am betting at writing physical thrillers where characters have to escape physical danger, more than psychological danger. Perhaps the physical danger stories are the strength of my imagination.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
You don't need to set your story in the US. In your case, you may end up having Canadians trying to do American accents, which will depend on how good your actors are. There are a wide range of accents in the US.
If you're relying just on guns for the logic in your story, you're lost up a col de sac. Some of the most brutal scenes in films don't have any guns, they're the easy way out. Lots of crime doesn't involve the use of any guns. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, well if I set it in Canada, a lot of people including the police have guns here too. But let's say I write so the villains commit their crimes without any guns. The police are still going to use their guns to go after the villains, and I want the villains to try to fight back and resist arrest and escape to make it more dramatic. But would the police not use guns in Canada, in such situations?
It's just that in the script, the protagonist as well as supporting characters are police officers, and if they do not use guns, especially the main character, well then the audience is going to think it doesn't make sense of for them not to, won't they, even in Canada? Maybe I am missing something here. You say lots of crime does not involve guns, but how do you prevent the police from not having guns, if they are going into situations where they will be attacked by the villains? This is what I am having trouble understanding how to write. One movie I can think of where the police do not use any guns when going after a serial killer is The Chaser (2008). But is there a reason why they were able to make it work in that movie, that I can implement perhaps? Or what if I wrote it so that the police do not have any guns, even when they go into dangerious situations, and like The Chaser, just don't bother to address why they don't bring guns? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
The cops here carry guns, but they don't always use them.
It depends on how they're used dramatically, they can be an easy way out. Cops can also use them inappropriately, which can bring other ramifications for charterers. . In "The Bridge" Saga, the Swedish female protagonist detective has what appears to be Aspergers and she has a gun, it gets fired occasionally, However, it's also used for dramatic effect, she doesn't allow her Danish partner on the case to use a gun in Sweden because he's not allowed to be aimed there. There's an instance later where she's forced to confront her keeping to rules when told to take a gun in Denmark while doing a raid without support, There's a SWAT type team that gives them support on police raids, but guns are rarely fired by them. Just firing guns isn't dramatic, there has to be more to it. Serial killers are a mixed bunch and you don't always need a gun to arrest them. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, well for example I wanted the villains to suffer a dramatic death, by the police at the end. Kind of like the death you see at the end of Bonnie and Clyde (1967) for example, or something of that sort.
But, would the police give the villaims a death like that, if it meant beating them to death, with their hands or batons, instead of using the guns? I guess I just that the guns would be more dramatic of a death. But let's say you do not need guns to arrest a serial killer. In movies, they always use guns though. For example in the movies The Silence of the Lambs and Seven, when the SWAT teams go into, what they think are the killers homes, they are aiming guns as they go in. Why didn't the SWAT team just choose to come unarmed then, if they do not need them? If I write it so that a team of police goes in unarmed, when it be believable, compared to movies like The Silence of the Lambs or Seven, where they had guns? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
SWAT squads go in armed, that's what they exist for.
The job of the police is to bring people to justice, not to kill them for revenge. Currently, the news has instances where suspects have met their deaths by other means. There's a story behind the real Bonny and Clyde, their characters and the world that they lived in. They are the protagonists, not the cops in the film. There has to be another level to the deaths, since you don't have the budget to do a visceral scene like "Bonnie and Clyde" Unless the gunshots can be seen ripping something/people apart you won't match that scene, beating with blunt instruments comes closer, as demonstrated by Joe Pesci in a number of films. . There are movies in which they don't use guns to arrest real life serial killers. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, it's just in every movie I've seen besides The Chaser here they always use SWAT to go make the arrests.
Plus I didn't think I needed more Gore to try to to do a dramatic death scene like Bonnie and clyde. I thought I could still have the deaths but without more gore, unless I need the gore? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Maybe it's more interesting if the the key cop characters have to make the arrests. After all it's these people who the audience have invested in, not cops covered with body armour.
You shouldn't use examples which have lots of bullet hits on the characters and the vehicle they were sitting in, if you don't wish to use gore. After all the characters being ripped apart by bullets is central to how these people died both in the movie and even more so in real life. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh well I meant the example as in what happens, not how I intend to show it if that makes sense?
The thing about using the main cop characters, is that I didn't think it would be believable, if they went to make the arrest without back up. For example, in the movie Manhunter, the main character goes with back up. I just thought it would make the main cops look dumb, if they didn't bring any. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
It's story telling, you put the main character(s) into a position where they;re forced to do it without back up. The SWAT team may runaround the place, but your main hero needs to do the final show down.
An example is in "The Bridge" final showdown, where Saga Norén, the female Swedish detective, goes alone to face down the villain who has her detective partner in the middle of the bridge between Sweden and Denmark. The bridge is sealed off at either end, but the SWAT teams are no where near, This is what heroes tend to do, they may have had a commando squad , but it's James Bond who finally faces down the villain, although sometimes he gets saved by the bond girl, who has a reason for revenge, Dirty Harry did the job without a SWAT team. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Film making is a creative process that takes flexibility. At every turn in the process it reveals you handcuff yourself with rules and preconceptions. Your ideas are primarily derived from big budget movies.
There is too long of list of examples in this genre where there is no need for guns, gun fights or large supporting cast. To name a few: Sherlock both the British and American series, Wallander, Endeavor... The detective doesn’t need a gun and most of time is spent with a solitary lead character perusing inquires. There are so many possibles to write it in a way that works for a low budget that still would be exciting but you seem incapable of seeing past your narrow vision. You’d be better off working at a government job that has specific rules and regulations to follow. Mindless mainstream action movies which you seem to be modeling your movie after rely on all the things that low budget film isn’t good at. Mainly all that action (gun fights, car chases, fights and special effects). Not understanding your limitations and the realities of producing a movie is the consequence of living inside a personal passion project bubble. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, I never thought of the script as an action movie script, but more of a suspense thriller, which happens to have physical confrontations in it, at certain points.
I could cut out the physical confrontations and cut them short, but then script will only be about 70 pages long, since the confrontations take up about 20 pages. So I woulld be 20 pages short of the what a screenplay is expected to be, since they say do not go under 90 pages, if that's true. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Many times in the past you’ve asked questions about this project. Which many have replied ‘What’s your budget?’ Which your answer changes every time from you don’t know, to not enough to buy $10 handcuffs to 50k. Beyond the money it seems your skills or your access to crew to deliver professional results makes determining what you could realistically do difficult to judge. If you and your crew abilities are so low no screen play no matter how basic will be a challenge. I know you have a higher opinion of your skills than your results seemed to indicate...
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh well the handcuffs were for a short film I did before, that I was using as an example, not the current project I am budgeting. As for having a high opinion of my abilities, I thought it as the opposite and it was too low, since I feel I keep coming up short.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
I suspect the reasoning is that action, like trucks overturning adds to your costs. That you seem to be unwilling to spend small amounts on props, doesn't indicate a willingness to spend the larger amounts that may be required to pull off stunts at a level acceptable to a mainstream audience.
Not having the inner confidence is the reason why you'll fall short, since directing involves displaying a self confidence, even if you've got lots of doubts. It's overcoming those doubts and making a decision, even if it's wrong.to some extent, because the worst thing is making no decision in war and making films. Confidence allows you to risk failure or mistakes and you won't learn anything without doing that. As they said in the other forum, go out and make films, you'll learn more doing that than asking endless questions on forums. There are lots of books, written by directors, that go though their thought processes and worries. Go and read those, you'll learn from their mistakes. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, but I thought that having too much confidence is a bad thing, since it seems others may think I am too confident and in over my head. Unless there is no such thing as too much confidence for a filmmaker and we need that?
What about what was said before, about how I think too highly of my abilities? |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Ryan, the problem is not just that you over-think things. Part of the problem is that you under-do things. You are expending a lot of time and energy (yours and everyone else's) just talking about stuff, rather than doing things and learning from your experience.
I think you would be better off to find a mentor locally, someone who has been successful at making films, and just be an apprentice for a year. (Or have you already driven all the local people bat-shit crazy with your repetitive, circular questions?) If you can't get a position as an apprentice, get a position as a janitor where films are being made, and just watch and learn for a year. Here's a multiple-choice question for you. You have to answer either "A," "B," or "C." Q: If you had to choose, which would you rather do (in other words, which would you rather have on your resume, and which would make you happier)? A.) Writing a great script for a film B.) Producing & directing a great film C.) Talking to people in forums like this about writing and producing a film. Just one simple answer for that one question: "A," "B," or "C"? No commentary, no explanation, no qualifying your answer. Just give us one letter. Give it some thought, then please give us your answer. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay. My answer is B.
I am trying to get the budget down first and just feel stuck in pre-production and getting everything arranged. I need to the pre-production ducks all in a row first, before production, or at least that is how it seems. Well as far as mentors go, one filmmaker I helped on his projects before, made his first feature for only $480 USD. So I could try to learn from him perhaps, but he makes comedies, and thought not sure if he could help with a thriller script, that may be a totally different boat, budget wise, but maybe he could help with the budget. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
My impression from reading a novel’s worth of his posts is that he USED TO have confidence and not question every single decision no matter how small, but the harsh criticism of the few projects he HAS completed and posted has brought him to this state of mind.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Well I wouldn't say I didn't question any of my decisions, but should I go back to that mindset and make a feature without questioning any of the budget decisions, and think of my judgment as good and correct? I guess I'm just afraid if I am not cautious, I will get in over my head with too much confidence.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Well in the past you were at least confident enough to finish something...the Timewine movie. Since I dont think we’ve seen anything else that was truly yours—-only other people’s project’s that youve directed with heavy input or collaboration from your clients.
We are begging you to do more short zero budget projects of YOUR OWN. you will learn so much about what does and doesnt work and what can and cant be done with x resources. Doing these projects will answer so many of the endless questions you have. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
OK, Ryan, "B" it is. Implicit in my question was my feeling that you cannot meet all three criteria, certainly not simultaneously (unless perhaps you are Orson Welles). Here's my non-technical thoughts on this entire thread and on many of your threads. I'm not charging you for my thoughts, they cost nothing, and they are worth nothing. So here goes.
Based on the number of questions you're asking about your proposed project, I think you are tackling too much all at once. You're trying to write a thriller AND produce a film of it; your lack of practical experience (and your realization of that) are causing you to spend a lot of time in dialog in these forums. That's "A," "B" and "C." You need to focus on what is most important to you: "B." As Josh points out, you are getting more than a little criticism here. Many members are real professionals and have been doing this for years; they think in terms of "doing something better" which might sound like a bucket-load of criticism to you. (Also, I suspect some of the negativity is because they are frustrated by the endless, seemingly circular, discussions.) When you ask a question, you end up getting (let's pick an arbitrary number here) five answers which are all slightly different, and some of which seem to contradict others. It's all good advice, just five different opinions from five different people. They may all be correct. But still it would make anybody's head spin. Since you didn't answer "C" (chat online about making a film) as your first choice, then it would be wonderful if you could get out of this rut and aim for "B." You are emotionally too close to the thriller script. You have that story in your mind. You want to see it with that much realism, detail and quality on film. You don't have enough distance from the story to turn the script into something that you are capable of putting on film, given your budget, the level of your experience and that of your cast and crew. You are trying to satisfy "A" and "B" and you have to pick one. Well, you have picked one: you want to make "a great film." My question didn't specify any particular film ... just a great film. I strongly urge you to pick a smaller and more realistic project, just for practice, and do a meticulous and really great job of it! If it's a 30-second PSA for the local [aquarium / SPCA / homeless shelter / food bank] then do that, and make it really good. Just the act of doing it will be a good learning experience. Then find a 3-minute project that is within your budget and your skill set, and do a really good job at that. Not the least benefit is that you will start to develop some self confidence. Pick one project that has some difficult lighting (everything else, hopefully, being easier). Pick another project that has some challenging sound situations. Learn as you go. The Sistene Chapel was not Michelangelo's first painting. It took him four years after he had gained a lot of experience with smaller works. It took Brahms at least sixteen years (maybe more) to write his first symphony ... after he had gained a lot of experience with smaller works. Save the thriller, which is so important to you, until after you've gained some experience with smaller films. Be content to start small, and become a confident craftsman along the way. Then you'll be ready for your big story. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay, I thought that the Battle Damaged Souls film was mine in the sense that I directed it, and since I want to get into directing, is anything I directed, truely mine? Or do I have to write the script for others to consider the project something I did? I am just not the best writer I find I guess.
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If I keep making the zero budget ones, without spending money on acting and cinematography, I thought it would still be the same thing, and no improvements would come, since I constantly told to improve in those areas, unless I am wrong? Also, it's difficult to get people interested in zero budget anymore. One actor told me that they feel I should move on from zero budget, onto bigger projects, if he has a point? I think some other filmmakers I worked with also feel the same way. Oh also, as far as short films of mine I posted on here before, did I post this one on here before, or no? I feel I must give a sexual violence warning though perhaps. |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Uh. wow. No, have not seen that one before. Im sure the others here will have thoughts.
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay. I mean the acting and cinematography are not good cause it's a no budget one of course...
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Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
No budget doesn't mean that the acting has to be bad, just that your pool will be more limited. If you have a good actor or actors, write your films around them, I used the same actor in a number of films, he was a professional actor, but I knew he had screen presence and came from a stage background, so could deliver lines. .
I got him to act with his eyes and not to project to the back row. Unfortunately, he had personal difficulties, which restricted his professional career, but he got work doing small parts. I recently saw an extract of a film I did with him in a retrospective of films made here and he shone in the scene. We were shooting on film, one film was on 8mm the others were 16mm, so there were costs. Some actors will do films for practice, especially if it it's a big part, however, that's easier on shorts.than a feature film. The same applies to crew, it depends on the local pool.It helps if you've also got the skills to do a number of the jobs on your own film.. . |
Re: Do I tend to overthink things in filmmaking?
Oh okay. Where can I find a larger pool of actors as well as a larger pool of DP's to pick from if it's zero budget?
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