Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Why do you always misunderstand everything people say to you. We have never said DO NOT DIRECT - we tell you to start small, where the process is similar and get experience - but you have done it again, you want to go straight to the main feature, and that you cannot do. You want to make fictional narratives - or in other words, tell a story - so make shorts, not main features. You just want the advice to go straight forward to the big job, but you constantly talk about lack of money, cast, crew, script and costume and set. Can you not see the whole thing here? You simply do not have a product strong enough to attract the people and funding you want/must have. Who cares if you don't want to make these short stuff? It's a learning experience. They are cheap to make and teach you so much.

PS - I'd hardly considers you to be a colourist or grader - you thought the other day you could do it on a phone. You've told us loads of times how grading causes you problems.

Walk before you run - it's an excellent maxim. You, however want to enter the olympics without buying any footwear, or wearing them in. How many years have you been planning now Ryan - 3? 4?

People advise you to try other people when you have demonstrated a total lack of skill in some areas. You want to make a movie, but you can't Direct, shoot, run sound, do makeup, light things or costume or manage money. You say you can edit, but that's caused a few problems too hasn't it? Grading isn't even on the list. If you can't do the rest, why do you think you can grade? You got hung up on teal for months and trying to change the colour of the walls because your set was the wrong colour? Do we need to go on?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh it's not that I misunderstand, one of the pieces of advice on here before was do not direct the feature, but do other things on it, or so I thought that's what was said.

But as for starting out small, I have done short films before as well as worked on other people's but I do not have money to keep going on short films, if I am to have enough for the feature though.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

You repeatedly throw yourself into impossible situations and then ask for advice. You haven't exhibited any exceptional talent to warrant making a feature. Your motivations for making your own movie appear to be more about you trying to work a round your in abilities.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

We always try to help, assist, encourage and navigate for people Ryan, but there is a point at which people usually click and realise that their aims and hopes cannot be achieved, and sadly, I think we're at this point.

You refuse to work on small projects to gain experience, and want to do your feature. Money is tight and frankly, you'd be better off just burning it now. Wanting something that is out of reach is a horrible thing to suddenly realise is how it is. I feel you're at that point Ryan.

Looking back through the dozens of topics you have started, not one is a positive one. Not once have you ever been in a position to help others, but constantly start posts and behave like a sponge - soaking up the responses. The trouble is you don't seem to learn and develop. You refuse to do the things we know will help build a solid skill base. You never look at yourself realistically, but constantly believe that with just a little help, you'll get there. You now want other people to do the work, because you're finding it tough. This is called life.

I don't believe we can help you Ryan, if you are unwilling or unable to move forward logically,

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

There's no point in having the money for the feature, if you haven't invested in building up the skills required to make the feature. The alternative is to use the feature as a training exercise on which you can learn the skills.

You keep asking questions, yet somehow you don't progress further, it's as if you're caught in a loop.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh okay, well I could use the money to make the shorts instead, it's just I will not have any left for a feature after. So I felt like I had to just accept the hand I was dealt, and go for the feature, since I don't have money to try to practice beforehand. What do other filmmakers do when they run out of money to make more shorts, and they are forced to move towards the feature, or what do they when they are in that situation?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

The idea is to make products that cover costs, plus a surplus. You are looking at film making like an amateur. Nothing wrong with that but you need money. You make shorts that have some earning potential or you fund them yourself, to get the experience. There is a cost involved in getting more skilled. Alternatively you operate as crew for others. A person for hire and get better that way. It still costs you to some degree, but many do that. At some point, you move to being in charge, and you have to have budget.

Nobody is forcing you to head to the feature, but your feature is just a longer short. You struggle already. You may find a full length feature impossible.

Let’s be honest. All the grief you have had with cast, crew, locations, set, lighting, sound, vision, makeup, editing and post processes will grow exponentially and surely you appreciate you are badly prepared to cope with this. If you are beginning to realise you need help from good people, you will become a producer not a creative, your project will be distanced from you and leak away. You cannot have what you want with your ability, funds and confusion.

I’ve never met a film maker able to go from nothing to full feature without some successful smaller projects. All your projects so far have been flawed, you’ve detailed the problems here. You’ve not fixed them that we are aware. Make an advertorial for a carpet cleaning firm. It can have a story, the day in the life of the cleaner. You can use all your ideas. The job coming in, the office discussion, the travel, the clients home, the dialogue between them and the resolution. Make a mini feature they can put on their website. If it’s good you will learn from interacting with strangers and will learn from the rigidity of a client which will help your planning and product handling.

If you spend a grand on a poor short it’s better losing that than losing ten grand on a feature.

Last thing. I’m not sure you really know what a feature movie involves. Most of your comments suggest you don’t.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Everything expands on a feature, it's more like an expedition into unknown mountains and everything just piles up on you everyday.. Invariably there will be re-shoots, because things don't work the way you expected, that happens with experienced crews and directors, so it's more likely on the type of film making you're involved with.

As I said, you can regard the feature as a practice piece, or even a Duke of Edinburgh award type project, just don't expect to sell the final product.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh okay, but don't all directors need help from good people? Are you saying I should fill more of the duties myself? I thought that needing help with a collaborative process of others was normal.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Directors have their collaborators, but they also have to live with the resources that they have available. You currently don't seem to have the skills required for the package as a director, The job requires that you have the vision to tell story, yet use the knowledge of their crew to fulfill this and that can involve letting these people take you to places that you never thought of.

This involves more than just selecting the camera angles, a good DP can probably do that better than you at the moment. .

Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand what people are telling you. There are pretty of examples of this in your threads here. Being able to do this and being quick on the uptake is a key skill for a director.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

I see what you mean. Is the director allowed to get other opinions from the crew though, on if something is good, or if they feel the take is good as well and if it's working, or is the director pretty much only allowed to hear their own opinion?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

What you think?

The crew won't tell you directly that it's bad, but that will quietly make suggestions or how about.. The director will have the final say, but as one cameraman said to a director, "unless you're careful, I might do exactly as you say"

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh okay. Well it was suggested before that I should produce and let someone else direct it, but then it was now said that if I do that it'll slip away from me in a bad way.

but should I take the prior advice on that and let someone else direct if that's better for now?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

That decision is up to you,

Making decisions is part of a director's job. If you have difficulty with this, perhaps it's something you should factor into your decision.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

I'm not sure if you can watch the BBC where you live Ryan, but maybe with a VPN you could watch a TV drama - Line of Duty. It's an exceptional drama and is on I think series 5. It's got all the things you need for your feature. It also has lots of YouTube videos covering how it expands episode by episode - and the fans pick up on really tiny details - things I totally miss, so it's a real drama that has loads of discussion on the script, the action, the acting and the linking. It's a police procedural so your snags about meeting rooms are dealt with almost every episode. I learn all sorts of little tricks on better ways to do things from it. I suggest if you can do the VPN to start with series one and watch each episode a couple of times at least. It uses feature film techniques and is compulsive how to do it well production. It's actually made in Belfast and the areas in Northern Ireland, but this is very cleverly hidden in the shooting and editing. Only the locals would spot it. I didn't, and I spend lots of time there.

I'd watch it as an example of production excellence. It's the sort of programme that shows every discipline how it should be done. I'm mega impressed with everything in it. Not a weak idea or poor performance from anyone. Especially the script - it is so clever and detailed. Almost every line the actors deliver has a real purpose. Every shot is the same. If there is a cutaway, it's for an important reason, and afterwards you realise you knew, but it didn't register.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

He should hire someone who makes his decisions for him. Otherwise a coin might do.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh I didn't think that making decisions was my main problem. I have as much of the shoot planned out as could be right now, and I know a lot of what I want decision wise. My biggest worry was not being able to pull the performances from the actors and wanted someone to help with that, if possible. It wasn't a decision making problem I thought I had, it was just getting the best performances, or so I thought.

I can also live with the realistic locations even if they look bad or not very cinematic. I feel that perhaps if I can direct the performances right, then the lack of cinematography may not matter so much, hopefully.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Your problem with the actors is that they are all amateurs. All the ones we’ve ever seen range from poor to simply terrible. You have a pool of incompetents. On the location issue, it’s one area that would take the heat off the poor acting and terrible script?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

If you want good performances casting is key, You need to invest a lot of time doing auditions to find the right actors, especially if you're using non actors.

If you're using non actors, allow more time for the filming. You seem to be shooting at a soap opera speed, which doesn't allow inexperienced actors a chance to give a performance. Soap operas are demanding on experienced professional actors and if you're working at speed you may not get the best from them,

You may have had a Marilyn Monroe in your cast, but you wouldn't have got much out of her at your shooting rate.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Well in the past only a few actors would show up so I would just cast the best of those to get the movie made. But how many actors should I expect to audition in order to go ahead with the rest of the movie? Do I have to have a good feeling about the actors? For example, there are stories from directors about how they were forced to work with an actor they didn't feel was right for the part at all, but still had to do it anway, and the actors still did a good job.

So could I pull a performance that is good out of an actor who you don't think is right for the role anyway, if that is what you end up having to do, if other directors have done it?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

I can't believe these discussions are still going on.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

It's like the movie Groundhog Day except there's no happy ending it continues on forever [hits my alarm clock]

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

The number you audition will depend on how fortunate you are with the people who apply. On one very low budget film, which was a freebee job, I was extremely lucky with my small number of applicants. One was a former professional wrester and another was a professional actor who was recovering from mental issues. The latter's career went on an upward curve and he worked on major TV dramas.

With non actors you may have to keep going. We auditioned about 100 children for a part in one short film.

Even so, shooting scenes at the speed you're doing won't give these actors a chance to give a performance. With non actors there can be weeks of workshops,getting them prepared, especially with young people.

This is all old ground, you just can't keep asking the same questions over and over in the hope of hearing a different answer.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

What intrigues me is the slow/no progress Ryan makes. Just when he gets to decision time, he has a think, and then revisits every step in his decision making/avoiding process.

I don't even remember the projects I did last year. My accountant often asks me what a charge was for and often I have no memory of it at all and have to go and search the records - I find it was a random parking charge to put the van in a place to shoot from. I have two projects put on hold when Covid started, and I don't waste brain power doing any planning for these until they appear again. Even projects in the dirty for July - are not worth planning properly for as they struggle for commissioning and contracts.In Ryan's world I wonder if the people who said they would take part over two years ago, even remember saying they'd do it?

Ryan also unexpectedly answered a few questions - that's a first - he realises he might not be the best person for some roles, and is considering giving the project to somebody who can get on with it. This is a seismic change. He's starting to consider best person for each role, even if it's not him, and perhaps feel comfier knowing he'll get a better end product?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Sorry I don't mean to come off as repetitive, it's just if I can't get a lot of actors to audition and I cannot get a lot of shoot time in because of location schedules, and actors work schedules in their day jobs, I am just trying to make the options I have work better, if there are not many new options. I figure maybe there is something I am missing.

I could do more rehearsals as suggested, and do them in other locations of course, before the shoot days. It's just on a microbudget, I do not have time to get a lot of takes during shooting, and wonder if I can get good performances faster. But I can try with rehearsals. I can also not direct and just produce and edit only, but some tell me that not directing could lead me not having enough control of the production if that's true.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

A micrp budget doesn't imply that you've got extremely limited time. Not having enough money for enough takes was an issue when shooting on film, but that doesn't apply when shooting on a digital format.

I've worked on low budget dramas and, unless it's an extremely simple scene, they've all taken longer than you to shoot a scene.That also applies when you can only do a couple of takes because of the low shooting rato on film.

If you can't get the cast and crew for long enough, it's not going to be practical to shoot a feature film.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh it's not a digital vs. film issue, it's more of an issue of the locations not being open long enough, because not every location owner is able to give you a location for more than a day. Also for outdoor scenes, the whether and sun changes so time is limiting there, for those scenes. But it's not an issue of film cost of course. The cast and crew also have day jobs in the past that makes it tough, but it's hard to higher people who do not, cause it seems that everyone has a different job, and hard to find people where filmmaking and acting is their only job. But if I have more rehearsals before the shoot days, will that help then? But I meant microbudget as in having to hire people who have jobs I have to work around and location owners who's jobs I also have to work around.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Major feature film have to work with the same issues regarding exteriors and the moving sun, It's a matter of planning your shot order and ensuring that you have reflectors for your fill light.

On a feature film, unless every scene is in a different location, it's not unusual to have a main location that you work in for a number of days. On a low budget film there are real advantages in having this.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh okay. I could try to find a DP that would know more about making light match outdoors if that's do-able then. Some of the scenes take place in the same locations, some scenes have different ones.

Most location owners will not want me to shoot a whole movie there based on my experience, and a location owner for example is much more likely to say yes to a couple of days shoot compared a couple of weeks for example. But that's just my experience so far.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

It really is Groundhog Day ryan. Nothing has changed since our last discussion on this. If you want something but have a choice of doing it badly, or not doing it at all, why do you keep looking for a third solution. When you want something you offer the other party something in compensation. You have rewritten Queens lyrics. I want it all, I want it now, and I want it free?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

You usually need to pay a location fee if you wish to shoot for a more than a day, unless you've got a relative or friend who has a suitable building/location. You may be able negotiate a lower fee than a fully funded feature,however, you will also need production insurance to provide cover in case you burn the building down while filming.

Interior film locations can be to be unoccupied buildings or rental properties. People's homes do get used, but they tend to be be expensive if they're being used for longer periods. Your local film commission may have a list of locations. On funded productions, they'll pay a location fee for a day's filming.

This is what your budget is for.

Your experience seems to be you being thrown out of locations before you've even finished filming. This is unusual and may imply that the owner was unaware of what was involved and wanted to get rid of you.

This is how it was done on "Clerks": " He (Kevin Smith) was only allowed to film in the store at night while it was closed (from 10:30 pm to 5:30 am), hence the plot point of the shutters being closed due to a vandal having jammed gum in the padlocks. Because Smith was working at Quick Stop during the day and shooting the film at night, he frequently slept no more than an hour a day. By the end of the 21-day shoot, Smith was unable to stay awake while some of the most climactic scenes of the film were shot."

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh okay, yes because of the budget I am using a lot to pay for other things, and would have limited time locations from people I know. I won't use the same locations I was thrown out of last time. I will try to be much more specific as to what is involved this time.

I haven't seen Clerks, but how was Smith able to pull good performances out of his actors on a limited shoot time, since it was said before that I need more shoot time in the locations. Did he do a lot more rehearsal therefore, or how did he do it? Or how was he able to get good lighting and cinematography and production design if he had to shoot fast, unless of course he just had a good crew, and therefore I should get one too...

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

He was also shooting on film: 200 ASA double X using an Arriflex 16SR2 http://www.doc-cba.be/cbadoc2/images...SR2_manual.pdf

I would assume Smith either cast the right people or knew them and based the characters on the people he knew. A number of the cast went on to have a career in acting.

Smith knew the world of his story, which is different to your proposed film.

It was the DPs first feature film, he was 22 at the time and is now a member of the American Society of Cinematographers.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

The penny may finally have dropped.

Ryan - poor cast, crew and director virtually guarantee a real poor product. You really cannot make a movie without talent in EVERY area.

Wanting to pull good performances from amateur actors is usually futile - they just cannot do it. I did a short Voice Over for an advert two days ago. I convinced the business owner that the £100 for a real actor was good value, rather than taking one of his managers and working for a day with them, and still no guarantee they will sound 'professional'. I knew an actor covid resting - which is like normal acting resting but with extra time without pay - We agreed £80 for the session based on the small number of words I sent him in an email. Probably 30 seconds screen time. He breezed in, put his script on the stand, and did me two versions in different accents - RP and regional. Both were perfect first take. Want it again? He asked. We replayed them and both agreed there was no point. I did him the bank transfer while we chatted, with the promise of an invoice from him by email. He was in the building fifteen minutes. That is how professional actors work. If I'd worked with the manager, he could only do the local accent, and struggled with the words in the script. This was only audio - can you imagine if he had to do it to camera?

Best thing was that my actor was also well educated and knew how to pronounce some of the names - some were very strange names from mythology - as the business sells figurines - scary things with swords or Medusa heads - that kind of thing.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh okay. Well what I could do is maybe fly to another city and cast there, but then the shoot time is more limited if I do not live there of course. But maybe there will be more actors to choose from if I do.

What I could do is not go ahead with the production unless I feel really confident with the cast and crew. If I do not feel confident with the options from the casting and crew I find, then I can just not go ahead with until I do, if that's best?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

You're the director, all that is your decision.

If you go to another city, you'll need to establish filmmaking contacts, because you won't be able to pay everyone on your budget. That's par for the course on micro budget films.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Oh are you saying that that's a disadvantage compared to working with the contacts I have already established?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

Just that it will take time to establish a network in a new city.

It's less of an issue if you're hiring a professional crew, but you don't have the funds for that. Even with that it requires establishing a pee-production base do all the work before filming starts in a new city..

It's common to bring cast members to the filming location (e.,g. your current location), but you do need to add accommodation and travel expenses to any fees that need to be paid to the actors.

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

I thought of bringing them to me as well, but wouldn't it cost less money if I go there, since that is just one person traveling compared to bringing them all to me?

Also, it was said before that I need a more experienced crew, so wouldn't it be good then, or not necessarily, if it takes more time and costs more money? Or is it necessary since it was said the cinematography, production design, etc, was poor before?

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 

It depends if you're planning to move completely to a new city for months if not years, because that's what doing this would probably involve. It takes time to establish a good network of suitable people who are willing to work for free on a feature film.