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-   -   Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-discussion/537962-hiring-second-unit-director-bad-idea.html)

Ryan Elder April 24th, 2021 01:43 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
I see what you mean. Well it was said before that I need a better crew, so if that's true, is there a better idea? Or was the suggestion meant that I try to find a better one in the place I already live in?

Brian Drysdale April 24th, 2021 02:01 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
You have local knowledge, we don't know who's available in your area or region.

Ryan Elder April 24th, 2021 02:08 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
That's true, and I could use local knowledge, it was just said before that I could use other people, who are more experienced. However, most of the people I worked with so far work behind the camera, and not in front of it so I would either have to go to another city with a crew from here perhaps, to work with actors, or bring them here perhaps if that's better.

Paul R Johnson April 24th, 2021 02:28 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
That sounds right.

Ryan - the snag really seems to be that you consistently ask for advice from everyone, don't appear to be decisive at all in any area and you should have thought about this before you even wrote a script.

In any project in the professional world, it's always the producers who have the idea. "Lets do this" Everyone thinks its a good idea so they find a director. If they need specific roles, then they might know Fred, the Director knows Fred and says no - he's terrible at that, and he's doing X at the moment. The Director then suggests Jane. He knows her work and thinks she will fit. The Producers tell him how much is on offer and the Director thinks he might go for it but only if they offer more. They do or they don't. If they don't then he suggests Jim, who works for lower fees but is a bit er, less good. Eventually you have the best team money can buy. At the same time the identical process starts with the actors - but their availability is always a key feature - shifting the date can count them out. They also want guarantees if they keep the diary spot open. Others might be amateur who book annual holiday - they might work for peanuts but dates are just as critical. Somebody on the team starts scouting locations, and so it goes on.

You cannot be all these people - well, some Directors can wear multiple hats, but that isn't you. Your failures in the past are plainly down to bad planning - you ended up with rotten actors, a rotten script, poor technical, dodgy locations and a recipe for disaster. You seem good at thinking about planning - but it's always in pencil, so you keep rubbing out. At some point plans become ink - big, black, bold ink. You never get to this stage and spend all your time putting out fires. You agonise about how long it takes to shoot a page of script, because you keep thinking the location owner will boot you out. Plan properly and it doesn't happen.

They shot a part of a movie in my town - taking over a busy side street house - parking Panavision trucks in people's car spaces near a school, making people late, upsetting residents - BUT - they had done it properly. Permits to park generators, wayleaves to get cables over people's gardens - a generator cable crossing a residents grass garden earned them £50 for two days. The small builder let them park in his yard and they gave him £120 to cover parking and electricity overnight. They had two security people from a local firm - £240 a day per person - perhaps higher than some technical crew were paid. Proper planning. Unencumbered shooting for a couple of days - the immediate locals compensated for the inconvenience. Shot in an ordinary house, no idea why, but everyone happy - bat people like me who drive down the street and had to divert.

If you want to make low budget features, you have to consider all this and pay for it. There is no such thing as a no budget decent feature unless you do everything yourself.

Brian Drysdale April 24th, 2021 03:36 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
It's possible to make a feature film without all the resources found on professional production. Depending on nature of the film, you could possibly do it with a crew of 5, which used to be the standard documentary crew sizw,

However, you do need a reliable, multi skilled crew. Although, from experience, unless you've got some production people working at a unit base organising things, logistics tend to limit you to about a week's filming. After which you need to prepare for the next block of filming.

Ryan Elder April 24th, 2021 10:03 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh okay. Well I am willing to pay and do not want to make a no budget project again and have better results. So I am willing to spend money. And I don't have to wear a lot of hats and can give hats to other people if that's better. As for planning in ink, it's just when I did that before and things were written in ink, things went wrong, so I wanted to be very careful, and be open to change. I was told that I have a tendency to underthink and not plan enough, so I want to plan a not more, and not underthink this time, unless that's not the way to go? Plus I need to find enough good actors and crew to choose from before I move forward as well, and still looking and deciding what's the best place to cast it where I will find them, that I can afford.

Ryan Elder April 24th, 2021 10:06 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1964720)
It's possible to make a feature film without all the resources found on professional production. Depending on nature of the film, you could possibly do it with a crew of 5, which used to be the standard documentary crew sizw,

However, you do need a reliable, multi skilled crew. Although, from experience, unless you've got some production people working at a unit base organising things, logistics tend to limit you to about a week's filming. After which you need to prepare for the next block of filming.

Oh okay but when you say I am limiting to a week's worth of filming, and then after that I need to prepare for the next block of filming, are you saying I can only plan one week of filmming at a time?

Brian Drysdale April 24th, 2021 10:41 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
No, just you need production people setting up the next week's filming while your are filming. You should read what I've written.

Currently, you don't have enough to pay for a crew and cast on a feature film. There are other costs, which you may just about be able to afford. In the world of micro budgets, it all deferred payments, that you don't get paid.

There may be payments stated in the contract, but in practice you don't get paid.

Ryan Elder April 24th, 2021 10:46 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1964720)
It's possible to make a feature film without all the resources found on professional production. Depending on nature of the film, you could possibly do it with a crew of 5, which used to be the standard documentary crew sizw,

However, you do need a reliable, multi skilled crew. Although, from experience, unless you've got some production people working at a unit base organising things, logistics tend to limit you to about a week's filming. After which you need to prepare for the next block of filming.

Oh okay I see. I can see that because it was difficult for me to plan the next shoots while I was currently shooting so it would be nice to have people that can help with that for sure, like you suggested :). What about other features films that are shot on a low budget? For example the most costly one I helped work on was 80,000 USD but would that be enough if you want it to be good? Is it possible to make a feature that can be good for half that amount if possible, to save on some costs?

Brian Drysdale April 24th, 2021 11:49 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
How good it will be will depend on what you're trying to do with the budget.

It will depend on what resources you can access, how good and creative the cast and crew are and how good the script is.

You can spend $100 million and have a disastrous film that doesn't work on any level.

Ryan Elder April 24th, 2021 12:26 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
That's true, thanks. And this also why I wanted to hire someone who can budget the movie, with my budget better than I could if that's do-able.

Brian Drysdale April 24th, 2021 12:47 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
You could try that, but given the small amount, your proposing to speed money on something that won't be seen on screen.

Film budgets are standard forms, so you should be able to do that yourself.

You don't have the option to spend money to solve the difficulties, Low budget film making is about coming up with creative solutions.

Ryan Elder April 24th, 2021 04:50 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh okay. But if movies like Paranormal Activity, Primer, or El Mariachi can be shot on really low microbudgets, is it possible for me too then?

Brian Drysdale April 25th, 2021 12:49 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Yes, it's possible.

The people who made those films knew what they were doing and had a broad skills set, plus the confidence to pull it off, from all the questions you keep asking, you obviously currently don't. That's the difference

Also, the post production costs (to get them ready for distribution) on some of these films was way higher than the headline production cost.

Paul R Johnson April 25th, 2021 01:50 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Ryan, your knowledge of movies, producers, directors and low budget features is really deep and something you clearly like. I’ve never heard of most of the things you quote and have to go off and google. What I don’t quite get is your desire to make one yourself, when your finances, lifestyle and location mean it’s difficult. You talk about going to the big city like it’s a magical place where movies get made. Years ago now we asked what your existing skill level in the various disciplines was. I get the impression none have increased, apart from your reading and watching. Doing, you find hard, so ignore this area. Asking the same things continually is evidence you just don’t get it. We try to help but you don’t listen, ever. You rephrase the same questions in the vain hope we will say your idea will work, but we never do. You have problems you are simply refusing to even think about. Pick one. Your terrible actors. Given a choice of a terrible actor, or no actor, I’d go for no actor. It’s like one rotten piece of fruit that spreads to the healthy fruit. If you have two passable actors and an awful one, dump the awful one, and either replace them, or rewrite. Scripts are an issue, so rewrites you’ve shown are bad. It seems like over the years you are constantly trying to make movies without any positives and loads of negatives. You talk of going to the emerald city and finding cast and crew who will work for a stranger, for low rates and have to make a choice.take the money from a director/producer who is way, way out of his depth, or take on his roles to rescue the project. I suspect fee will do anything other than take the money.

Have you not noticed how your topics get answered by a very small group of people? We are on a quest to make you understand, and have endless patience, but the other excellent forum members avoid your topics as they always end the same. Their time invested is pointless. You carry on regardless, immune to suggestions and refusing to see sense. If you genuinely want our opinions and advice, maybe just sometimes it’s good to take it, not respond by your usual “yes, but I’ve been told before .......”

Brian Drysdale April 25th, 2021 03:44 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
I would add that knowing about films and making films are two different things.

Notice that the director was also the DP on the three films you mentioned and they also edited the film as well. They used locations in their area that they could access, they had a story that grew from the film maker's background and had a unique take on it, so that it stood out.

In simple terns, these weren't copy and pasted from other films.

Some used techniques that you may be uncomfortable with, such as the actors improvising, so that the dialogue sounds natural.

Ryan Elder April 25th, 2021 11:17 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh okay, thanks. Well I don't mean to come off like I am not taking advice, it's just a lot of the advice given to me had some problems that I wanted to work around so I just try to come up with my own ideas of how to work around them.

For example it's suggested that I need more money but if I cannot get it, I try to find ways around it. So it's not that I mean to not take advice, it's just that some of the advice presents more problems that I have to find another way around, that's all. I'm sorry if I didn't take the advice the right way. But a lot of the advice on here was good and I took some of the suggestions, such as some of the suggestions on music, or types of camera shots that were suggested to me before, that I incorporated into the storyboards. So I am grateful for all the advice and did take a lot of it I feel, but there was also a lot that I don't know how to take, because it presents it's own problems.

As for saying that I was told other things, before well I try to get advice from as many people in the business as possible and not just the filmmakers on here only, so I feel I have to weigh in all advice. I don't mean for it to be come as rejecting advice or that the people giving me advice are competing or anything, and I am sorry if I have given that impression.

But also, I feel that if I suggest my own ideas, that they are shut down in a very black and white way. I suggested what if I go to a different city where their are more options for example, and the response was is that I shouldn't think of it as a magical emerald city. Well I wasn't thinking of it that way, I was just suggesting an alternative to find more actors and crew. Why does an idea to solve a problem have to come across as magical or emerald? Isn't that a black and white way of looking at it?

As for the movies I suggested that were microbudget, I know that the director was their own DPs on those and their own editors. I can do the editing myself, but I will spend more money on getting a DP though.

And as for the the filmmaker interjecting their pasts into those stories, I can do that as well if that helps. But as for the dialogue sounding natural because it was improvised, in my experience, actors have asked to change lines and I let them, but then I am told the dialogue sounds unnatural. So is improvising bad therefore, at least based on my experience, from what I am told by others later?

Brian Drysdale April 25th, 2021 11:55 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
I don't think you're really facing up to reality.

You can't make a feature film jest using the advice on a forum, the main issue is the probably the person you see every day in the mirror. You can do things you mentioned, but you don't seem to think things through, but if you've got the confidence to do them, you will still do them.;

That;'s the nature of trying to male any feature film However, with these micro budget films just hiring people may not be a possibility, they will most likely be already known to you and are willing to work for next to nothing. To be successful, it will be a personal relationship, rather than professional one..

At the moment this feature film sounds rather like a bucket list project,

Ryan Elder April 25th, 2021 12:05 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh sorry I don't mean to make it sound like a bucket list project. I do really want to make it. I just didn't think it was possible to form personal relationships with everyone I work with and that a lot of them will have to be professional especially if something were to happen if I had to replace people with other people I may not know well, which has happened before.

I was told I don't think of everything before though, which is why I try to ask for a lot of advice, so I can try to think of every possible thing I can. I feel I have learned a lot from working under other directors though, and try to learn as much that was as I can, even if I do not have money to make a lot of my own projects if I want to save that money from the feature. I am just trying to learn the most I can with what I have, but is that bad?

As for making it sound like a bucket list project, am I giving the wrong impression and I should express how much I really want to make it passionately, rather than stick to the technical more so, when I ask for advice?

Some of the filmmakers I worked under though, where able to hire people they didn't know before and it was professional relationships and their movies were very microbudget too though, so is it possible therefore? Not every relationship has to be professional though, I worked with two filmmakers before who said they were interested in helping me make it as I was thinking of having them be an AD and CD perhaps.

But if I shoot it in another city I'm not sure if they would want to come for that though. So it's a trade off, then. I go with the personal relationships where I am or I go another city to find more pools of talent to choose from. I guess I have to pick which trade off, and can't have my cake and eat it too?

Brian Drysdale April 25th, 2021 12:36 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
The odds are that the crews are making these micro budget films for experience, rather than the money. A professional DP could easily eat up a good percentage of your budget.

At the moment, given your skill levels and lack of confidence, making more shorts is the way to go. A short with good production values could easily cost as much as your feature film budget.

You rarely get your cake and eating it on films unless someone else is funding it.

Ryan Elder April 25th, 2021 01:06 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh okay, well I guess I feel that if I use the money to make more shorts instead, that I will not be able to get the money for a feature later. So after making more shorts, that's it... No money to make a feature after. So that was the downside of making more shorts for me.

Also, you said before I had too too much confidence, that I was willing to do it, but now you say I have a lack of confidence. I was wondering, why it changed, just curious?

And yes I would have to find a DP that is good but still wanting experience and still starting out but good, but is that bad?

Pete Cofrancesco April 25th, 2021 01:48 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Ryan seem unable to comprehend and appreciate the complexity of making a movie. You also lack the ability to make sound decisions based on your limitations. When you lack the fundamental skill set needed to create movies then no amount of advice will help.

You are making it a binary choice between either shorts or a feature. When there is a third option, not making either. You keep discarding my advice to do something simple like a Youtube movie channel, vlog, or behind the scenes docs. These types of film making can be done by yourself with little to no budget. The one thing you do more than anything else is talk about movies instead of actually making them. What is the point of fighting this? Find something that matches that. Do it for our sake so we don't have to read these type of threads.

Ryan Elder April 25th, 2021 02:04 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh well I am currently making a youtube video on filmmaking itself with another person, but I want to do both. But I am much more interested in doing fiction though, and would rather do that, than documentary or vlog work.

I have done documentary projects with others in the past and I found those much more difficult to make compared to something that is scripted. I would prefer scripted fiction, that's all.

I guess I would just rather make the movie when a lot of advice is don't do it, do these other things instead, instead of finding a way to do it. I feel the focus should be on how to get the movie made well, rather than not make it all and just do something different.

Unless it's bad of me to think that way?

Brian Drysdale April 25th, 2021 02:09 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
I don't think anyone said you'd too much confidence, more that you were having difficulties not seeing issues that were in your film. It's easy to be blind to things because you're not seeing the film the same way as a member of the audience.

The fact that you often end your messages with a question implies a lack of confidence.

Selecting a DP is like picking an actor, they have to be right for a particular project. You can only do following conversations with a number of DPs.

Ryan Elder April 25th, 2021 02:22 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh okay. The reason why I ask questions is because I like the advice and want to do the best and don't want to to do anything incorrectly, so that is why I keep asking more. I guess the reason why I have trouble seeing issues in past projects is because if I see them in other movies, I wonder, well why is it bad that I did if it's been done in other movies, or I was told to accept and embrace the microbudget and if the cinematography and locations are not that cinematic looking, just embrace it, and go with it.

Unless embracing such things is bad and I am in denial of the issues therefore, and should not embrace subpar cinematography and locations as a possible blessing in disguise.

Brian Drysdale April 25th, 2021 03:22 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Just because some things are used in professional films doesn't mean they're correct, When they were shot it may have planned to use the shot in a different part of the sequence, but circumstances meant they had to use it in a different place.

They can also make mistakes regarding eye lines, just because they've made it, doesn't mean you have to.

Paul R Johnson April 25th, 2021 03:37 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
"embrace the micro budget?" what absolute rubbish Ryan - you really are not in the same world that we are.

You mention you're making a video on tube about film making? That sounds like me making a video about dance - I'd never dare do a dance video for two reasons. My friends would wet themselves but seriously, it would be terrible!

You just seem unwilling for unable to appreciate that for a product to be good, all the ingredients need to be good. You won't spend any time or money getting better, just hoping that it will be great when the scope of a full length feature is immensely more difficult than anything you've done.

Documentaries ARE scripted, maybe not in the sense that everyone learns a script, but I've never been involved with one that didn't;t have a script of some kind. In a documentary, the VO, if there is one is scripted once the visuals have been seen and assembled. Any in or out of vision material is at the very least framework with key points.

I got very confused by this bit.
Quote:

I just didn't think it was possible to form personal relationships with everyone I work with and that a lot of them will have to be professional especially if something were to happen if I had to replace people with other people I may not know well, which has happened before.
Why on earth do you think you need to know them well. When I work for a production company, I might have a cast, crew and creative team of perhaps 30-40. I will have worked with maybe 20+ who I have worked with before and put them on the re-contract list. Others will be contracted by people from the production companies production department - so I'll have a pile of people recommended by another production or company manager, people I trust - but I know nothing about them at all. In 17 years I have only fired one during a production and put maybe 10 on the do not re-contract list. Some were competent but socially inept, making them difficult to work with. People who were so own role centred, the sound, lights, acting could fall apart, but as long as the picture remained on the monitors and was nice and sharp they'd go home happy and totally unaware of the carnage everyone else suffered. Others would be technically useless but well qualified. Some would be just 'risky'. On the first day of production, people meet very often for the first time. Two hours later, rehearsals are under way. Everyone and everything is considered and judged. By the end of day two - everyone has formed relationships. Good and bad. Square pegs in round holes identified, and potential problems already imagined. Before the end of day two, I'll start to be approached by people on the quiet, pointing out that X hasn't a clue and often suggesting changes to prevent them becoming problems. By the end of day three, sadly, the non-team players are identified and everyone has workarounds so these weak ones don't get in the way. Sometimes, it will be the Director - they just don't work the way the actors expect and actors are always verging on paranoia. These directors have to be 'guided', advised and prevented from wrecking things. Often the directors who are just not up to it shouldn't be directing a production with the budget and scale of the one we're on, and are simply fish out of water. The good directors realise they are lacking and I quietly help and support them. Sadly, some are so awful that, nobody helps and supports them at all. The ones who bellow and yell. I'm working with one shortly who is rude, arrogant and quite nasty - but - he gets good results and makes money. It does mean that I need two different members of crew, because past issues make some people unable to work with the guy. Everyone behaves professionally, that's what we do - but it is difficult.

Inter-personal relationships cause grief. I have one fella I use quite often who has autism. He finds the social interaction difficult, but he's very diligent, and his built in blinkers mean he never hets distracted. Give him a job and it will get done well, with no distraction. For me that's a real boon. It does mean he is the worst person to give a role to that involves general safety. He's totally unable to focus on his job but keep an eye out for unexpected issues. I remember well him ready to lower a very heavy projection screen. It had to start to decend on a music cue, and hit a mark exactly on a beat - the cameras then went live . 3 seconds from no screen to live screen. He had a couple of rehearsals and got it. First time with the audience, I spotted one of the wardrobe people standing exactly where the screen was going to drop. I ran, something I don't do and rugby tackled her. She looked at me angrily and then the screen went thud and landed on the floor right where she'd been. Our friend was 100% immersed in the cue - he didn't register the person standing on the mark, because they weren't there in rehearsal.

It's vital to be able to work with people, but often even after 10 weeks, I still struggle with the names of some people. They all know mine - but I have no memory of them, but I never would dream of letting them know.

Directors have to be people persons to get the best out of them. Insular loners make terrible directors.

Pete Cofrancesco April 25th, 2021 05:56 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1964763)

I guess I would just rather make the movie when a lot of advice is don't do it, do these other things instead, instead of finding a way to do it. I feel the focus should be on how to get the movie made well, rather than not make it all and just do something different.

Unless it's bad of me to think that way?

This doesn't make sense. Who do you think is more objective you or outside observers? If most if not all are not encouraging you to make this movie there must be a reason.

I feel most of your decision making is flawed and done for the wrong reasons. I get the feeling you couldn't get hired working on other movies so you're are making your own to get around that. You are self appointing yourself into positions you aren't qualified for. It's one thing if you didn't have the credentials to be hired as a director but you had the aptitude. It would make sense to create a few really good shorts to prove you can direct. Instead you've had the opposite result, which has shown you aren't good at the primary responsibilities of a director. So instead of acknowledging that, you are yet again trying to get around that by hiring a co-director.

As long as you are not honest with yourself about your abilities you will continue in this endless loop of getting yourself in over your head and asking for advice.

Ryan Elder April 25th, 2021 05:56 PM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Oh it was just said before that it's hard to get people to work very a very low pay without having personal relationships. So I was just responding to that.

Perhaps the documentaries I worked on with other people were not scripted then. It's just for example in interviews people would say things that would contract other people and couldn't make a story out of what they said therefore. But maybe I should have what the people say be scripted as well if that would be better.

But I would like to stick to fiction if that's do-able. As for not being able to work on other movies, I have worked on other movies that people have asked me to before. I just wanted to make my own, unless that is too ambitious. And I didn't say anything about that I was making a video about dance. I also have experience of personal relationships causing problems. It was just pointed out earlier on this thread that I could use people to work with that I have personal relationships with, so I was responding to that post.

Paul R Johnson April 26th, 2021 12:28 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Ryan. Your biggest snag is that you research, get information but are very, very bad at synthesis and analysis. You lack any ability to understand context. You get told specific things about questions, but use that narrow targeted response to produce a genetic rule. It is VERY annoying to tell you something to then have it repeated back at you later attached to a totally different scenario. Constantly you tell us you were told something and you were NOT! You attached it to something different. What said was that it is very difficult to get people for no/low pay unless they know you well and you can, in practice, twist their arm a little. Clearly you cannot ask strangers to work for low/no pay if you ha e no previous relationship, because they will correctly believe you are using them, and many will be insulted. You might get students wanting experience but they are worse than useless to you.

Over the years you have developed a ‘negative’ filter. Every time people say things you don’t agree with or don’t like, you just ignore it. You never even remotely ask yourself why they say it. Cherry picking comments is pointless.

The best advice for somebody putting even modest money into their project is don’t. It’s throwing it away. We almost feel guilty because our advice to stop gets ignored.

If there was a TV show about people making movies, you would not be out first week when you scored zero. You would be the one people voted through each week because it makes great TV, when you should have never even been on the show.

I fail to see even one positive that makes me think you have an ounce of film making ability, and surely by now you must have realised film making is simply not something you’re good at?

I totally forgot you totally misunderstood pencil and ink contracts. You do understand these are just status and don’t mean real contracts signed in pencil or pen? Pencil denoting an intention or willingness to sign but probably just that, opposed to a real contract agreed in full between two parties and legally binding. The way you tried to use the terms just made me realise you didn’t understand.

Brian Drysdale April 26th, 2021 12:40 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Ryan, you seem to have difficulty following what people have written because you take things literally.

Reread Paul's message again and see why he's referring to dancing.

Usually documentaries have had a treatment and other scripting material written, You need this in order to get funding or a commission for the production. This evolves has the material is gathered, and the documentary goes into pre-production how much is involved will depend on the nature of the documentary. A historical documentary is different to a fly on the wall documentary.

Your documentary experience seems to be at the more basic end of the spectrum, without any real production structure,

Ryan Elder April 26th, 2021 01:08 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Well I just want to make a feature film that is fiction, with actors and that is what I want to do. But instead of saying well it can't happen and listing all the reasons, I want to find a way to make it happen. Is that so wrong?

I feel that if personal relationships are not an option because I need more options of people to work with, and if trying to hire strangers is a problem because they will not be interested for low pay, then there must be other options and solutions rather than to have the mindset that it is not do-able and there will always be problems. I think there is always a way, unless that is bad thinking?

Brian Drysdale April 26th, 2021 01:33 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
These low budget features can be done, but the question is more if you personally currently have the skill set and other requirements that a director needs to make one of these productions.

It requires a large amount od self confidence and determination and you need to be aware that you will be taken to your personal limits. You need to be able to attract people to your film by using your interpersonal skills, because they're not doing it to pay the mortgage.. .

Paul R Johnson April 26th, 2021 02:16 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
In the entertainment business, things are different from in an ordinary company. The person in charge is rarely capable and effective in all the roles, but always has a good understanding of what the roles can do, even if not how - they just know what can be expected, requested and often demanded. This means the person at the helm is more like a ship Captain - they make sure the people they have under their control are the ones who have the right skills. However, they must also be very good at making decisions regarding the skills they don't have. They listen, often to detailed technical or artistic input, then make an immediate decision. They do NOT have to know the people individually, but know their discipline.

Let's use a wardrobe example. They see costume glint in the lights and discover it's a zip. A zip in a period costume. They do NOT tell the wardrobe person they want the zip removing and replacing with a brown one that will match the fabric, or tell them they want 22 buttons and button holes sewing ready for the 2pm session. They just say fix it, knowing the wardrobe people will choose the most appropriate solution. They don't need to even know the wardrobe persons name - and some might just yell "Wardrobe" and a person comes scuttling across the set. They point and say "Get rid of that shiny zip - what idiot thought a shiny zip should be in a peasants clothing from the 1800's???"

If you have arm twisted your wardrobe person, being spoken to like this, and having no real world experience means they might just burst into tears for being unappreciated or worse, have a tantrum and walk out.

Remember a few months back, everyone berating Tom Cruise for yelling at a crew member for being lax with covid protection - and how the general public thought his behaviour outrageous. My view was that they should have done what they were told. Nobody likes being yelled at, but in the professional world, anyone upset by words would be pretty useless to have on a team - it's not bullying and it's not unusual. It's caused by pressure - pressure on everyone, and for some who don't care about standards, it's deserved.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen was a great maxim, but nowadays it's "if you can't stand the heat, we'll install aircon, get you some breathable fabric workwear, and introduce relief breaks every 20 minutes".

We're not actually saying it can't be done Ryan, but we are suggesting that it might be difficult for you, based on our experience of how you do things.

Your rule book gathering, inability to read people, and your lack of people skills and self-confidence make us draw that conclusion.

We KNOW you want to make a feature, but that is currently unlikely at your current level of skill - let alone the local skill base.

Look at your murder movie where your casting was terrible. Some of those actors were totally unbelievable - can you see that? Their inclusion spoiled the result. You didn't audition them, they were just allocated roles and they didn't fit the script. If you were making a movie called land of the giants, and all your actors were 5' 8" and under would you see the problem, or believe that low camera angles would sort it because you had read and been told that low angles looking up make people look taller?

The most fun low budget production I was involved with when starting out was a 16mm film - 20 minutes running time about a WW1 flying ace, and we built as a small team a biplane in the studio, made holes in it and set it on fire. One attempt at getting it right, and it was all sorted in the planning. We all got given a role we were comfy with. My role, of all things was pyros - so my very first outing with pyro devices and there was no internet then, so no books, no google, just post and telephone calls. How did I get pyro? I wanted to be involved so much I lied. Lights (my thing at the time was being done by a much older more experienced guy - so rather than be an \'assistant\' or gopher, I said I could do pyro, then had two weeks to learn everything I could. However - it was also my first time on a real movie set, and so much was different from theatre. Learn all that is learnable was my mantra.

Pete Cofrancesco April 26th, 2021 05:05 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
The most annoying thing about Ryan is, he asks for advice and acting like this is a profession production when in reality it\'s amateur vehicle to indulge his desires to do whatever he wants. So that\'s fine just do what you want and don\'t ask for advice. We don\'t have a vested interest in your success or failure. We don\'t care if you want to hire a co-director or micro manage every aspect of your movie.

Paul R Johnson April 26th, 2021 06:33 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
I think that\'s the real thing Pete - there is no audience for Ryan\'s movie.

The entire process is to grab ideas from dozens of very different movies and join them up together and then be surprised it doesn\'t work?

Ryan Elder April 26th, 2021 08:14 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
There was quite a few information since, but do respond to some of it, I actually did cast the short films, I just went with who showed up in the cast because I wanted to get footage in the can. I was aware that the acting was bad, I just don\'t like saying that in case actors read me say it. I was aware. But I still wanted to make short films. Unless I shouldn\'t have until I got good actors and therefore it\'s a waste to make one therefore until I do.

As for taking ideas from different movies, which movies did I copy from?

Brian Drysdale April 26th, 2021 08:57 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Who\'s in the cast is key to a successful production, if the right people are in the right roles and there\'s a chemistry between the actors, the performances will sing. .

Ryan Elder April 26th, 2021 09:19 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
I talked to another filmmaker about how perhaps I shouldn\'t have make the short film because I didn\'t have actors that I thought would be good in the roles, or that I couldn\'t find a good DP for it, but she said to make it anyway, because you don\'t want to be known as a flake.

Is that true though that if you don\'t make the movie because the casting calls or finding a DP didn\'t go well, that you should try to make it anyway, so you are not seen as a flake? Or is it best not to and then start over again later, hoping other people will respond?

Pete Cofrancesco April 26th, 2021 09:22 AM

Re: Is hiring a second unit director a bad idea?
 
Realistically the only thing to be gained from this project is enjoyment. That\'s if you find scrabbling around trying to movie with no money fun. I can\'t see this winning film festival awards, any chance of commercial success, or even reel material demonstrating that you have talent as a director.


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