DV editing workstation
 

In trying to decide what equipment I should recommend to the company I work for, I was hoping I could get some advice from some people who know about this stuff. The system will be built on a windows 2000 or xp platform.

The first thing that I am unclear about is real time editing. What advantage to do you get from purchasing a more expensive real time card such as the Canopus DV Storm RT? I have heard that you are able to view your edited material before rendering. Without a lot of experience in editing digital video, I don't immediately see this. I am able to make small changes in Vegas Video 3.0 and play it back and preview it without a real time card. If the real time setup saves time, how much time?

What is the advantage of using a professional NTSC monitor?

Has anyone bought a complete system from www.saferseas.com?

Dual monitors or one large monitor?

Does anyone use RAID? Which mode? Do you need RAID to be able to do real time editing or will a 7200 rpm IDE do the trick?

DVD Burner? Does anyone actually create DVD's that can be played on a consumer DVD player?

Software? I have used premier and Vegas Video 3.0. Right now I really like Vegas Video and have some heartburn about premier. What do you use and how does it work for you?

Thanks for any help.

What is the advantage of using a professional NTSC monitor?

an NTSC mon can be calibrated so that what you see on the screen(color mapping) is what you get on other calibrated monitors

Dual monitors or one large monitor?

dual monitors are nice for editting footage. You put the control panels on one monitor and the footage on the other. Unfortunately, you limit your choices if you're wanting either a single card that supports multiple monitors or a dual monitor video software that supports multiple cards.

Does anyone use RAID? Which mode? Do you need RAID to be able to do real time editing or will a 7200 rpm IDE do the trick?

RAID can be tempermental.In order to really make RAID faster than a single drive, you've got to fiddle with the block sizes. The optimized block size depends on the file size. I run a single 100Mb ATA 100 Western Digital 7200 RPM drive which works great for DV. I'm afraid it's too slow for uncompressed playback, tho'.

DVD Burner? Does anyone actually create DVD's that can be played on a consumer DVD player?

of course....altho' some DVD players will play SVCD, and, I've found that to be much cheaper than DVD.

Software? I have used premier and Vegas Video 3.0. Right now I really like Vegas Video and have some heartburn about premier. What do you use and how does it work for you?

I'm using a combination of Ulead mediaStudio Pro 6.5, Premier 6 and Pinnacle Studio 7. Lately, I've found MSP 6.5 has been satisfying all my requirments. It works flawlessly, no hiccups, freezes or confusing menu's.

Hope this has helped.

To help you design a good system a bit more infomation is required.

1.What is the primary task of the system - television/commercials, film, web, DVD?
2.What will be the majority of your comtent - video, motion graphics, bit of both?
3.What kind of budget do you have?
4.Do you already have a basic machine or are we starting from scratch?

If you can answer these questions we can go from there?

The primary task will be for presentations that will be displayed on a projector or monitor. Another task is to provide DVD's for clients which they might show potential customers.

I think there will be video and motion graphics, probably more video than anything else.

The budget is going to be around 5500.

We do not have a basic machine right now.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Paul,

One matter that you should consider is whether or not this new station will be dedicated to video editing and kindred tasks. If it's used for a variety of other general office chores you may find that it quickly becomes unstable for video work as other drivers and software begin to junk-up the environment.

I'm curious why you're not considering using a good Mac G4 with Final Cut Pro 3 for this task. I'm quite certain that you could set up a very nice station for your budget (excluding camera and other production equipment, of course).

Whichever way you choose to go you might be interested in looking at ProMax at least for reference. They specialize in providing video editing stations for both the PC and Mac platform. I cannot personally endorse them since I've never purchsed from them. But many others have sung their praises on other forums.

Their system packages can be found at: http://www2.promax.com/Systems/

Have fun!

I'm sold on the Mac G4 with Final Cut Pro...it is simple and stable, no Firewire cards to add on or worry about compatibility. The machine comes with a 7200RPM drive, have seen no need for RAID, and if I need another media drive it will be simple to just plug in an external Firewire harddrive...which I will do soon just so I can carry jobs from my machine at work to the one (identical) at home and back.

Have burned exactly one DVD on the supplied internal burner, and it worked fine on the two consumer DVD home players I tried it on. Probably will not burn too many more until the media prices beign to get a little more realistic...especially the way people here ask me for dupes of my jobs. I usually just firewire the finished project back into the camera to create a digital master, then feed it into a stack of VHS decks (thru a D/A) for distribution...or save it as a .MOV file and burn it to CD's for people to play back on their laptops.

Exactomunde, Mike. I've worked with the PC and Windows platform for nearly 20 years (aw, geez, why did I remind myself of that?). There's no question that PC/Windows technology and performance is far beyond the Mac for many tasks.

But when it comes to video and graphics the Mac is absolutely -THE- platform to use. I began using the G4 500DP with FCP just about a year ago and you'd better believe I've no intentions of going back to Windows/Premiere. I certainly like my Dell workstations and Inspirion notebook (kicks butt) but I -love- my G4 desktop and TiBook!

I've been drooling over a G4, (still) awaiting a price drop on the dual 800s. I've been using EditDV on a B&W 300MHz MAC for quite a while-- I'm about ready to make the jump to FCP. Maybe after I get the spiffy new G4......

Vic

Actually Ken, I am writing this on an IBM PC...I have been dual platform for many years, and I am not aware of what tasks PC/Windows is superior to the Mac for. I just need to keep a PC here in my office to assure the compatibility of documents I create or edit for others to use on their machines.

Since I have Quark, Illustrator, Photoshop, Acrobat, MS Office etc. on both platforms it shouldn't matter which machine I use, but I find the Mac decidedly smoother running for my taste. Besides the aforementioned pluses in terms of Final Cut Pro etc.

Having said that, I am nw awaiting the arrival of a new 1.8GHz Windows 2000 PC, with some fashion of Firewire card and Adobe Premiere...why? Because I still need to save out some video jobs to an old Microsoft codec so I can post streaming video on our Intranet, and Cleaner 5 EZ which came with FCP on the Mac side is slower than crap and still doesn't always convert it right. After some nights of waiting and waiting only to find it crash and then I still have to send the file to a guy in another office (actually post it on a server for him to pick up) so he could convert it on a Wintel box, it's time for me to bite the bullet...this old creaking PC is well overdue for replacement anyway, I'm surprised it still works at all!

cheers

Well, guys, I can't argue with you when it comes to "turn key" purchases. I owned a Mac once and couldn't stand the lack of control over the OS. I'm really a tinkerer at heart. I just love getting into the nuts and bolts of my TYAN duallie PC, which I built from the ground up. There's nothing like the lump I get in my throat the first time I power up a new build...LOL....pretty twisted, huh? Just can't DO that with a Mac. But then, again, I once owned a Chevy Vega....there goes my credibility, I guess.

Chevy Vega! LOL! Then you must *really* be experienced in the art of auto repair! :-) Don't feel too lonely, I have had my share of "mechanic's specials" too! Got the scars on my hands to prove it. Still got a front axle for a 1951 Chevy pickup under my shed too!
These days I have little to no time for fussing with anything that doesn't start making me money the minute it comes out of the box.

I'f your using a windows system I'd look into getting AVID Xpress DV. I just built my win 2000 system for 3300 dollars that includes software and the machine. I just took my time and selected all the parts I needed. I run 1.4 AMD abit KG7 motherboard with onboard RAID. 2 IBM 40 gig 7200 rpm drives, 40 gig firewire drive, tower and power supply, Soundblaster Audigy Platinum, CD-R, ZIP, scanner, printer, 19 inch Mitsubishi diamond pro monitor, ATI Radeon VE (dual monitors), firewire card, and Xpress DV for 3300 delivered to my door. With the extra money you save you could get a client monitor or a mini dv deck like the sony DSR-11. You can find those new on ebay for under 2000.

Is there anyone here who can venture a comparison between an AVID (pick a model - Media Composer 1000, Xpress, Xpress DV) and Final Cut Pro v3?

We have 3 Avid systems - two on lease and one we own (MC1000, Xpress - both NT based, and an MC8000 Mac based - an antique) Lately there are more and more people switching over to FCP3. Today one of our crack editors, a wiz on the Avid, called to tell me he had landed a job working with FCP3. To my surprize, he wasn't crying. On the contrary he was pleased but couldn't give me a comparison because he's still getting up to speed. Last week we lost a job because the client HAD to edit on FCP. It seemed a little ridiculous to me to have this fully equipped MC1000 we were practically giving away and still this young producer for MSNBC HAD to have FCP.

So, can anyone in the know, give me a little somethng to go on? We're kind of stuck with the leased Avids but I'd get rid of them in a second if I felt we could do the same caliber of work and at the same speed with FCP3.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ozzie Alfonso : Is there anyone here who can venture a comparison between an AVID (pick a model - Media Composer 1000, Xpress, Xpress DV) and Final Cut Pro v3?

We have 3 Avid systems - two on lease and one we own (MC1000, Xpress - both NT based, and an MC8000 Mac based - an antique) Lately there are more and more people switching over to FCP3. Today one of our crack editors, a wiz on the Avid, called to tell me he had landed a job working with FCP3. To my surprize, he wasn't crying. On the contrary he was pleased but couldn't give me a comparison because he's still getting up to speed. Last week we lost a job because the client HAD to edit on FCP. It seemed a little ridiculous to me to have this fully equipped MC1000 we were practically giving away and still this young producer for MSNBC HAD to have FCP.

So, can anyone in the know, give me a little somethng to go on? We're kind of stuck with the leased Avids but I'd get rid of them in a second if I felt we could do the same caliber of work and at the same speed with FCP3. -->>>


Well I cant give you a comparison with FCP3 but here @ school we have (2) FCP2 systems and a Media Composer 1000 and here @ home I have my Xpress DV. I find that the Xpress DV and FCP2 are very close. I prefer Xpress DV because I was working with Media Composer before I got a chance to learn FCP. The Xpress DV system is the same basic layout as the Media Composer. FCP2 doesnt even come close to the Media Composer though. Neither Xpress DV or FCP2 have realtime effects or 3D effects, like the Media Composer, which makes a huge difference. The render times are also night and day, you cant compare them. The Media Composer blows the other 2 out of the water when It has to render something.

I guess you should look into getting a FCP system though if that much of your client base HAS to have it.

Ozzie,

I've worked quite a bit (daily, actually) during the past 13 months on FCP but have not had Avid experience. I'd recommend that you also post your inquiry over at 2-pop.com (on the FCP General forum) if you've not already done so. 2-pop is centered largely around the FCP user community and I think you'll find quite a few Avid refugees over there who may be able to give you the comparison you're looking for. There are also a number of in-depth reviews and articles on the site.

While I can't compare FCP's rendering times to Avid's, you should note that Final Cut Pro 3 (released Dec) now features many real-time effects. Since this version now runs under Mac OS 10 (a Unix kernal) it can now take full advantage of dual-processor Macs which has made a significant difference in render performance for basic effects.

Sorry if I haven't been responding - I have written a number of responses but they have not appeared. The site seems to be getting stuck when posting. Or at least, that's what was happening earlier.

Anyway, Ken,

Thank you for sending me to 2-pop. I usually stay away from product specific sites. So what am I doing in the XL Watchdog? This place is a little different - independent and a wide range of opinions coming from many different directions.

BTW - I just ordered an XL-1s from ZGC. The works - 3x lens, CH-910, BP-945, VariZoom Stealth control. All products and retailers I learned about form this site. ZGC lived up to its reputation, Christine was patient, quick, friendly, and knows the products well. I'll be receiving the package tomorrow.

Drewid20,

So I guess it boils down to FCP3 is a good and "cheap" replacement or backup for the Xpress DV but for nothing else. Correct? Now the question is - which is better, cheaper and more flexible - Xpress DV or FCP3? My gripe with anything Avid is it's tight grip on how you configure the system.

I believe FCP3 claims to have "no rendering time" but I've heard that's only in preview mode. MC1000 is fast for rendering but it can still hold you up when it comes time a 1:1 rendering job.

Thank you for the comments. They help.

Hey, Ozzie--

Your replies went somewhere, but just not onto the board. I had about 10 emails indicating you had replied to this string, but when I got over here, you hadn't. Maybe it's a "feature" Chris introduced...Ha!

I clipped some text from 2-pop similar to your question:

(clip)
You are asking a great question, and it's a question many people are asking these days. The macro advantage of FCP is that it is hardware independent, format independent, and speaks fluent QT, which is becoming the defacto format of choice for post..

You can grow with FCP, all the way to HD if you want, and all the way to OfflineRT on a PB. You will only have more and better choices for upgrading to uncompressed RT and HD, because of the open standards in QT, and the open architecture in FCP. Mfgs are aggressively competing to give us more and better SD options all the time, cheaper. I'm not so sure you'll find that happening in Avid World, especially with DV Express. It's a pretty closed box, unless they have changed things lately.

As far as the job market goes, I see jobs open for "Avid" editors, but not so many for Express editors. I see more and more jobs open for FCP editors, but the revolution hasn't hit the post houses yet as hard as it has hit the street.

As far as interface goes, I like FCP much better than Express. I started on an Avid 1000, and always found the Express too limited and claustrophobic. But that's a purely personal thing.

One of the best things about FCP of course, is that it has 2-pop behind it :-).

I haven't used the Avid, so can't speak to it personally.

Vic

Ozzie,

I feel your glee. Really. I have most of the toys you bought and know how much fun you're gonna have. Personally, I really enjoy working with that 3x lens.

Ken,

I would be more gleeful if the client wasn't such a pain to deal with. Thirty years in the business and I'm having to control my temper. Part of the problem is that half of the "client" is in the UK - he seems to know little but demands everything is done the only way he knows how. If I hear "that's not the way we do it here..." one more time... agggrrr. Talk about micromanaging. They actually want to see a demo scene shot with the 3x "just to see what I mean by my style of shooting". 140 pages averaging two hours of dramatic material in 18 days, 20 actors, 9 locations, interiors, exteriors, night, day, dawn. And all this for a fifth of what it should really cost. I've figured we need to shoot no less than 12 pages a day to get this done.

My "style of shooting" as they have begun to call it is to employ the 3x 90% of the time. To light for one shot and block the actors into that shot. Few setups with lots of action within the frame. Then I get the question - "who's your focus puller?" I don't think these folks know what a wide angle lens is like. I WANT deep depth of field. I don't want to rack focus. Not in this production.

Asked to shoot a demo of what I mean by wide angle. The last time I was asked something like that was in graduate school when part of my thesis was a writing and directing a half hour show. My advisor asked me how I planned to shoot it. I explained but he never asked for a sample.

Enough ranting. Glee? Oh I only wish I had the time for glee. But if I pull this one off I'll be very happy with my new toys. Don't worry, it'll be pulled off just fine. I just have to keep taking deep breaths and counting to ten.

Sorry about the system hiccups earlier today.

Ozzie, are you committed to a Mac editing platform? If so, I heartily recommend FCP version 3. ProMax (another Watchdog sponsor) is the biggest Mac & FCP integrator in the world and they can build you a fine system.

If you can go with a PC, don't overlook the Canopus real-time DV editing systems (www.justedit.com) -- that's what I use. Canopus is *true* real-time editing and output, while Final Cut is still not real-time and I doubt the Avid ever would be. I've seen the Avid demo and was not impressed. That's heresy to some people, but I call it like I see it.

Let us know how you like all your new toys,

Chris,

On the contrary, we're PC based. We own a G3 and an old Power PC (?) Mac that runs our ancient Avid MC8000.

I've seen Canopus advertised but I really don't know much about it. The problem with all these editing systems is not how good they are but how easily you can find good editors to work on them. When we bought our first Avid we considered a Media 100 but most of the editors we knew and liked had made the switch from CMX or film editing to Avid. So Avid it was. The same is true with FCP3. Canopus might be a better product but is there a big enough pool of editors I can call on to work it?

FCP3 is the sensation of the moment. Everyone wants it, needs it, can't live without it. Great Avid editors, and I'm talking multiple Emmy winning editors, are being forced to switch from Avid (just when they had mastered it) to FCP3. Only because thats what's hot at the moment.

I mentioned in an earlier post that we've been trying to rent one of our Avids. I got a call from a young producer who wanted to hire one of our top notch editors and he recommended the editing be done at our place. When the young producer for MSNBC came over to the office, I showed him our fully equipped MC1000 with 1:1 compression (or lack of). I showed him the less expensive Xpress. But he was eager to see our Final Cut Pro system. We don't have one. My editor friend didn't get the job and it went to some less experienced but FCP proficient editor.

Such is the business. The only thing that really appeals to me about FCP3 is the ability to compress 40 minutes of material into 1 gig and do some real editing in a Mac laptop.

It seems FCP is primarily a business decision ... if that's what people want, we go with it.

While I am nowhere near qualified to state relative processing-time and other technical parameters about the various systems, I can say that FCP has performed its job flawlessly for me, putting a state-of-the-art NLE system on my desk which has worked 24/7 from Day 1 without technological drama.

The people I serve have saved lots of money, I have made my fair share, those are all quantifiable facts. And it works. That's my definition of performance.

Is it as good as an Avid? That's not a question that gets asked much around this shop.

That's as good an aswer as any one can give. It is definitely a business decision and if FCP has served you and your clients well, then it's well worth the $999 for the software as opposed to $40k+ for Xpress.

I definitely agree Ozzie, and that is more important than processor speed statistics or other data. (although Apple may be stretching it a little to call it a 98% discount on a $50K rig)

Also important is the point raised here about finding a population of qualified operators...I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly, which is one reason I picked FCP, both to assure myself of readily availble assistance if I get too busy and to assure myself of gainful employment if things turn into a pumpkin where I'm at and I need the work. To say nothing of the coaching and camaraderie of a large installed users' group.

One thing to consider re: losing the MSNBC gig....when I worked in a pre-press facility we had purchased a Windows machine which we needed for one client (we were an all-Mac shop, as you may expect in the printing business) who insisted on designing all his print jobs in CorelDraw! (YUKK!!!) Well, that machine paid for itself right away, and kept paying dividends each time we got a job from this client, who we would have lost if we didn't add that piece to our repertoire.

Mike,

I'm going to print out your last message and post it on out bulleting board. Every time our monthy lease payments on our Avids come due I'll make my partner look at the message. Eventually it'll sink in. No body seems to be renting Avids, not even at bargain rates. Renting an FCP3 system for a couple of weeks will pay for our monthly lease on the MC1000. Yeap, it's all a matter of business.

By the way, which is the world's second largest liquor company? Which is the first?

<<<-- Originally posted by Ozzie Alfonso : Drewid20,

So I guess it boils down to FCP3 is a good and "cheap" replacement or backup for the Xpress DV but for nothing else. Correct? Now the question is - which is better, cheaper and more flexible - Xpress DV or FCP3? My gripe with anything Avid is it's tight grip on how you configure the system.

I believe FCP3 claims to have "no rendering time" but I've heard that's only in preview mode. MC1000 is fast for rendering but it can still hold you up when it comes time a 1:1 rendering job.

Thank you for the comments. They help. -->>>

It looks to me that FCP3 is better than the Xpress DV 2.0. I think you are correct that FCP3 has realtime previews but you have to render them in the end. Xpress DV 3.0 is comming out I think in Feb. with the same real time preview and 3.0 will now be able to take advantage of Dual Processors as well. It looks like FCP and AVID are going to try and one up each other from here on out. I personally got the Xpress DV system because I dont have alot of money being a Senior in College. The system cost me around 3300 for a very nice system delivered to my door. The equivalent FCP machine would have cost me about 1500-1800 bucks more. Now for a production company that much might not mean much but for me it meant ALOT. I think the 2 platforms are very close and perform very well but I wouldnt compare either of them to a Media Composer. In the end it comes down to 3 things. (1) What your client wants. (2) How comfortable and efficent you are @ either platform. (3) How much money you have.

<<<-- Originally posted by Drewid20 : <<<-- Originally posted by In the end it comes down to 3 things. (1) What your client wants. (2) How comfortable and efficent you are @ either platform. (3) How much money you have. -->>>

I think you answered my question as to the cost of the Xpress DV. If you bought a computer, monitors AND the Xpress, I'm guessing the Xpress DV software is under $1000? Is Avid still selling the software bundled with the hardware? If so, are trhey more open to alterations, additions, etc. to the system?

Replying to your three points:

1. The client will either not care or insist on a particular system. It used to be that if you didn't have Avid you were not a "true pro." Now money is a little tighter and if they can be sold the post for a little less and we can still make a profit, FCP3 is just fine.

2. With us it's a matter of how many good editors have become proficient with FCP. It took a long time for editors to master Avid (some never have). It's going to take as long for them to master FCP. We've found there are three kinds of Avid editors - true editors that come from film and have never quite mastered Avid; techies who are masters of everything Avid makes but who are mediocre editors, if at all; and really good editos who have mastered Avid's Media Composer - I know only 2 out of more than 20 editors I'm familiar with.

3. Money?

Howdy from Texas,

<< FCP3 is the sensation of the moment. Everyone wants it, needs it, can't live without it. >>

Purely the result of an adequate product with inadequate competition, and a superior marketing campaign. Apple did more to create the sensation that its loyal users did. I've used FCP, and was only marginally impressed. FCP3 is a let-down to me because it *still* isn't real-time. Nice color correction tools, though. And they finally fixed their broken titler.

You guys might be making a mistake if you overlook Canopus. They spent all their money on engineering, not marketing. While FCP and Avid Xpress DV require rendering, the Canopus DV Rex RT Pro and its little brother, the DVStorm, are *render free.* Not only real-time editing within its own editing software as well as Adobe Premiere 6, but real-time output to DV as well. Nobody else offers that, and it's an enormous advantage. While you guys are working on an offline low-res draft, a Canopus system is producing a final edit with no waiting. Plus, the Canopus DV codec is widely regarded as the best in the business, and it's the only DV editing system that'll give you clean keys, plus real-time color correction over an NTSC monitor.

The biggest challenge facing Canopus is their own marketing department. This company is the best-kept secret in the business, but hopefully that will change this year, thanks to a new marketing staff. Avid used to sell systems built around the excellent Canopus DVRaptor card; that partnership has dissolved now because Canopus is rightfully going after the Avid market. Their hardware is certainly up to snuff for the pro market, their large base of satisfied and dedicated customers is firmly established, and the press so far has been nothing less than enthusiastic.

I think you're going to hear a lot more about Canopus this year, especially around NAB. They're at the top of the hill of the PC-based DV format NLE's, and the most serious competition they have currently is Final Cut Pro's superb marketing and Avid's reputation. In my book, engineering ultimately beats both, and Canopus has it. Hope this helps -- www.justedit.com

You're right, it's all a matter of marketing, or the lack of. Bad marketing has far reaching effects. Where can I find a good Canopus editor? All the editors I know are in schock because they are losing work due to lack of experience with FCP. I'm not about to ask them if they know Canopus. They'll either laugh at me or have a panic attack

It's different when one has his own system. Years ago I actually had an editing suite I put together myself. It was a linear system based on Umatic VTRs and a Convergence contrller. I mixed all kinds of hardware and it worked. The clients I had at the time didn't care what I edited with as long as I got it done on time, on budget, and well. But it was my system in my house. Things are different now that we have a company with a conference room, three editing suites and award winning editors as part of our regular stable. I need to keep them and us employed.

Fast breaking news that's still on topic - the "client" this week didn't like the idea of me being the Director AND camera operator. It was a rough week. If my partner hadn't intervened I would have lost my patience.I can't stand being told how to do my job.

So now I'm faced with the task of finding a "cheap" but excellent camera operator who is as familiar with the XL-1s as I am or better. As with editors, I'm used to hiring the usual DPs who bring their BetaSPs or DigiBetas. There have been many times when I've asked them to shoot with the Canon. I'm usually met with a smirk and a some beffudlement. But now I'm not offering a choice - it's the XL-1 or no work. Times have changed, the MiniDV format has gained popularity and the XL-1s is as good as the BetaSPs we've been using. It's just a matter of learning a new piece of hardware. I only hope I can find the good ones.

By the way Chris what exactly am I looking for in the Canopus site? I've surfed through it and can't hone in on anything that says - this is the non-linear editing system you're looking for. I get a lot of DVD stuff and endorsements for products that are not clearly identified. Poor marketing is an understatement. I'm sure there's a pearl in this oyster but I can't find it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ozzie Alfonso : <<<-- Originally posted by Drewid20 : <<<-- Originally posted by In the end it comes down to 3 things. (1) What your client wants. (2) How comfortable and efficent you are @ either platform. (3) How much money you have. -->>>

I think you answered my question as to the cost of the Xpress DV. If you bought a computer, monitors AND the Xpress, I'm guessing the Xpress DV software is under $1000? Is Avid still selling the software bundled with the hardware? If so, are trhey more open to alterations, additions, etc. to the system?

Replying to your three points:

1. The client will either not care or insist on a particular system. It used to be that if you didn't have Avid you were not a "true pro." Now money is a little tighter and if they can be sold the post for a little less and we can still make a profit, FCP3 is just fine.

2. With us it's a matter of how many good editors have become proficient with FCP. It took a long time for editors to master Avid (some never have). It's going to take as long for them to master FCP. We've found there are three kinds of Avid editors - true editors that come from film and have never quite mastered Avid; techies who are masters of everything Avid makes but who are mediocre editors, if at all; and really good editos who have mastered Avid's Media Composer - I know only 2 out of more than 20 editors I'm familiar with.

3. Money? -->>>

I built the computer for 1700 bucks and the Xpress DV was 1500.

I like the fact that if you were a good editor on the AVID Media Composer it will transfer right over to the Xpress DV. I am at the stage in my learning the Media Composer were I know all the functions and can do quite a bit but my speed and quality need some work. I've been using it for close to 2 years now but I need more time on it. I'm not on it everyday so I forget some shortcuts easily. The way I look at the AVID is just because you know what all the buttons are doesnt mean your a good editor on it. :)

Mastering ANY editing system does not a master editor make.

Ok I have a xl1s and a Dell laptop. After buying these two what is a good program for a editting station. I would like top of the like but I can't afford it now. So what is something good and easy to learn the basics id editting.

Well, Chris, you did it to me. Just when I thought I had it figured out, you've (and others here) have sent me back to square one!

Having used a MAC G3 for editing with EditDV for a few years, I was all primed for a new G4/G5 and FCP. I, too, have gotten bit by the Apple marketing and 2-pop enthusiasm for FCP 3.0.

Now, you have gotten me thinking about something like DV Storm. Looks like, by the time I got something similar to a Dell 340 workstation and the Storm SE bundle, cost would be similar, so that is not a real factor. Switching from to EDV/Cinestream to Premier might be. Either way, I have to upgrade both the work station and my software.

As Ozzie mentioned earlier, the diversity and variety of opinions found here make this community a valuable resource.

I'm going to re-read this string, and ponder this and other info for awhile before I make the leap. Or maybe, I'll just go watch the play-offs for awhile to clear my head!



Vic

Good post....just when we thought we had it figured out...kinda like trying to deal with women...HAHAHAHA (no offense to our female members here).

Many times I thought I had it figured out...like with the AG456 and tape-to-tape S-VHS editing!!! :-)

Zim, what's a good editing system? Well, you may have been following the posts about going with something that has a good following, both so you can find people that know how to use it and also being able to market your skills readily. That might be Premiere. It is priced well below Avid Express DV (which is about $1500-1700 where Premiere is about $500...or free if you buy certain cards) and there are still lots of people using it. This could spark an all-day debate about the relative performance of the different products, but we have already talked about business realities.

Ozzie, I understand your frustration totally about your sunk costs on the higher-end systems while having an end-run pulled on you by low-end stuff. Folks I know in this town are fortunate in that their Avids are either rented out long-term or working regularly. These guys with the Beta SP's are no doubt similarly irritated at the massive influx of XL1 cams. You are smart to stick to your guns with your "XL1 or no work" policy.


BTW, internationally, Diageo (parent company of UDV and Guinness-Bass) is the largest...brands like Smirnoff, Cuervo, Malibu, Baileys...

Allied Domecq is number two (Beefeater, Canadian Club, Courvoisier, Kahlua, Maker's Mark, Sauza, Stoli...)

Glad to hear the kudos about FCP 3.0.

Just ordered the upgrade version and am impatiently waiting for it to make its way all the way over here to Korea (but not looking forward to the Customs pirates who tag a 30% tax based on the price on the invoice PLUS the shipping costs!).

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Mac user and have the Cinema display along with the G4 with super drive. The cinema display allows plenty of room for controls and the canvas and output. But I do need an NTSC monitor. I plan to grab one of those soon.

Also considering one other addition...CineLook. But I hear FCP 3.0 has a filter that achieves pretty much the same effect. Has anyone compared them yet?

I just wasted a bunch of time on a Dell. It's going back on thursday. It can't do what they said it could. Great computer, but it won't work. Looking now at a Mac powerbook. Maybe just the imac, but I like the laptop better.

If you're going with a laptop instead of a desktop, I recommend the Titanium model rather than just the iBook. Lots more wallop.