shake it up.

[Jeremy Martin]

any real shake flame or smoke users out there?

i've been reading a bit on shake especially and come to the conclusion that i'm way behind the times. i'm interested in finding out more about the software and it's capabilities, interface and whatnot. what kind of machines pros use when using it. just wanting to find out what i'm missing out on.

thanks. J.

[Rob Lohman]

I've seen both products being used at a tradeshow last year here
in Holland and can say they are very powerful (and expensive?)
indeed. Therefor I doubt much people here will have seen and/or
used these products....

[Jeff Donald]

I agree with Rob that Shake, Smoke and Flame are out the reach of most mini DV users. I think Shake is the least expensive at $5,000 with a $2,000 annual maintenance agreement.

[Jeremy Martin]

yeah that's what i'm seeing. INSANE. what is the deal with the annual liscense thing. that's crazy. that you buy it then they charge you to keep using it every year. could you imagine if adobe and macromedia did that. no one would have a job.

crazy.

[Rob Lohman]

Jeremy,

Those costs usually are for support and upgrades. It might sound
like a lot of money, but depending on what they offer it might not.

For example, what if this covers:

- fast (truly fast) fixes to problems you report so that you can
finish your project on time for the client
- on site installation & support of the product
- on site visitations if something is not working out
- extra help available if projects need an extra hand

In the professional world it is not uncommon for larger software
companies to ask extra fees (especially the first year a product
is being used) for support (you can call free and get responses
during the first year etc.), quick fixes and free updates etc.

I'm not saying they are doing all of this with Shake, but first learn
what you are getting (or not) before judging that something is
insane (in my humble opinion)

Keep in mind that the business is crucial to companies that use
such software. They just cannot have a disruption in their workflow
and that is usally what you pay for!

[Ken Tanaka]

Also, the market for these specialty products is tiny (compared with that for more consumer-oriented products such as AE).

[Jeremy Martin]

yeah i figured that was what it included for the most part. i never knew apple made it though. or do they just package and sell it? just wondering a little about it and it's capabilities. it looks like it's pretty crazy. i noticed on the LOTR supplemental discs that they use it for parts, one of the dozen different things i'd imagine. seems pretty intense, wish i had the means and a reason to get to know it. looks like fun.

[Jeff Donald]

Apple has been on a buying spree, having purchased several innovative companies this past year.

[Jeremy Martin]

wish they'd purchase someone to help them out with their great new OS.

sorry, sorry. but i am not a fan at all. i like my OS9, better yet i like OS 7. it ran.

i still like it better than anything else though. but that's just me.

[Jeff Donald]

An OS, like anything else, can't be all things, to all people. Myself I like OS X, each update gets better than the last. I only have one older iMac still on 9.x.x. My son uses it mostly to play games and many are not compatible with X. But time marches on and as Steve Jobs said, 9 is dead.

[Jeremy Martin]

what is it that you primarily work on with it?

myself (at my job) i'm using primarily all adobe products and flash. i've just noticed, on the machines i've used it on, that it runs slower and takes up 3 times as much space. i've noticed slowness issues with MX mostly. the fastest machine i use it on though is only a dual 500 G4. so i'd like to think that the newest machines and the newest generation of machines blow anything away that i'm used to.

one thing i do like however are it's networking capabilities among a few other things.

guess i'm just holding onto what i know best, cause i'm too lazy to learn anything new. time to make the switch myself i guess.

[Jeff Donald]

I do video editing and photography. FCP, After Effects, Photoshop 7, Illustrator, and a dozen or so smaller programs. I use a dual 450 and speed is rarely an issue. I don't render 47 photoshop filters all at the same time. None of my video clients ever complain. The work flow is very fast and an occasional render doesn't really slow the pace.

New processors are due soon and I'll probably upgrade my Mac at that time.

[Jeremy Martin]

guess i should quit complaining and bite the bullet then.

thanks for the input.

[David Warrilow]

Hi Jeff,

I have been using Shake since it was a 'Nothing Real' only product. Apple bought the company and the technology and re-badged it. I haven't used 'Version 3' - (they stopped supporting windows at 2.5 - and we are a win based facility), but I assume the features are the same with minor changes to it's functionality.

Shake is a FILM compositor. While it will read and write just about any format it's power really shows when moving and manipulating huge files (like 2K or HD plates), and in the quality of it's rendering. It is the faster and highest quality compositor out there on the desktop - but that difference would be almost impossible to spot at a 5:1 compressed DV level. Shake is a node based compositor which basically means you have access to every phase of your image manipulation and the option to make changes there - much like 'Maya' has in the 3D world. Again, something important in the film world where your final image is being projected on a 30ft screen. Less important for DV based productions.

In short, I don't see any point in you buying a shake license if you're dealing with DV. Since moving even multiple layers DV around would not even make Shake breathe heavy, and the manipulation you would be doing to your footage (colour correcting, compositing etc.) could be done just as effectively on a much cheaper package (combustion/ After effects/digital fusion) and save you alot of money.

On the other hand if you just want to learn shake - well that's a whole different matter.

Best,

David.

[Jeremy Martin]

David, thanks a lot for replying to this. i'm glad i finally found someone who actually uses the software professionally. i'm not actually looking to buy it. unless by some miricle i could afford it and the yearly fee to keep it running. which by the way is that something you have to agreee to pay or is it optional if you want the services it provides?

i've just been seeing it more and more like in DVD extras and of course the newest release on apples site. i've also noticed that some places are using in comercial production. for instance i'm pretty sure psyop uses it for some of their commercials like the newest lugz commercial.

which is where i'd love to be at. right now i do video stuff for cd-roms and some websites, nothing too special. but personally i'm looking to produce some DVD's promoting a clothing label and sports like skateboarding and snowboarding and the like.

i'm just trying to get a feel for if it's possible for me to create comparable graphics continuing to use after effects and DV video or if i need to get on the wagon and sink some cash into a real editor and 3D program like maya to go a long with it. i'm a mac guy so shake and maya would go together nicely but put me in the poor house for a while.

places like MK12 and psyop are my heroes. and it would be nice to have the equipment they do to be able to further my ideas to the next level. but it's nice to hear from someone that uses it personally say that with DV i can do the same things using AE and final cut.

do you perhaps have any suggestions for me. places i should check out to get up on the technology, sites, books, anything really. i'm desperate to make this dream of mine a reality.

oh and by the way if you don't mind me asking where do you work at that you have a use for shake. do you use anything else along with it like maya or anything. and what exactly is a 2K and HD plate?

thanks a lot for your input. it has been quite helpful and reassuring.