HMC bumpy? at DVinfo.net

Leslie Davis · July 16th, 2009, 04:19 PM

I rented a Panasonic HMC 150 for my sister's wedding, so because I was so involved in the wedding I hired someone to be my camera man. This is my only experience with the 150, but I am considering purchasing one for future weddings and other special events. I noticed that my sister's wedding video from the 150 turned out incredibily bumpy. I'm comparing this video with video taken from the Canon XH-A1 which seems to stabilize the image very well. I'm trying to figure out if this video was so bumpy because my camera man was incredibily shaky, if he forgot to use the O.I.S., or if this camera just isn't as good with the image stabilization as the xh-a1...please tell me your experiences with the 150. Thanks!!!

Mike Harvey · July 16th, 2009, 05:41 PM

You'll need to be a little more specific in how the camera was used... were the auto settings used, or were things in manual? Was this used on a tripod, or hand held (it sounds like hand held, but better to be clear)? What was the frame rate? And what do you mean by "bumpy"? Do you mean the image was shaky? The image looked jittery/strobey?

One thing to point out... 24p + OIS = bad. Actually, I believe progressive scan anything + OIS =bad. Realistically, you should never use OIS and just learn to use it better hand held. Or better yet... use a tripod (or monopod or shoulder mount if need be). I have a sneaking suspicion this is the case... either the camera man was just shakey, he used the OIS, or a combination of the two.

I have never used the OIS on this camera (or the DVX before it) for the simple reason that I don't trust it (or auto settings in general). The images are great.

Jeff Kellam · July 20th, 2009, 08:43 AM

Post a sample of the video.

I have seen lumpy video from the HMC-150.

Simon Zimmer · July 20th, 2009, 11:31 AM

I mentioned this in another post that my video did not seem smooth either but I am new to using a BIG camcorder so I think i just need to practice more with it.

So not using the OIS is a better idea? I guess especially for pans huh?

I will have to experiment with that.

I would be curious to see a sample video to see if it is the same problem I was having. I was also using 30p and 24p with automatic on and was using it as a handheld.

Simon

Yang Wen · July 20th, 2009, 07:33 PM

I have also noticed that video from the HMC is considerably more "bumpy" and "strobby" than what I'm used from 6 years of shooting with the DVX...

This only seems to occur with 24P which leads me to believe the 24P on the HMC somehow results in a different temporal quality compared to the 24P + pulldown from the DVX..

Mike: Please expand on why you think 24P and OIS is bad...

Leslie Davis · July 22nd, 2009, 03:09 PM

Ok, a better way to describe it is that the image was shaky. It was recorded at 30p. He used it on manual except for the focus...focus was on auto. I don't know if the camera man used OIS or not. I lined him out and then had to let him go since I actually played a huge role in this wedding. I am honestly very new to the recording side of things. I rented this camera because its the one that I thinking about buying, but I'm still learning how to use a professional camera. So part of it may be due to my inexperience.

So I just put together two of the shakiest clips from this wedding. Please any suggestions for next time...or how to make these video clips seem more steady. I think it might be somewhat due to the fact that he was zoomed in to the front of the church from halfway back in the audience....30ft? I'm sure that has a lot to do with it as it seems the further away you are the more you seem to notice each little shake of the camera. Any other ideas?

Last wedding I did was a similiar situation, I was in it so I hired a camera man to record it with a video camera that I was interested in. I used the same camera man both times. He is not a professional, so I was directing him in this. For the last wedding, I rented the Canon XH-A1. For much of that ceremony he was zoomed in 12 - 15 ft. The images in that video were significantly more stable. He did not use a monopod or tripod for that wedding either, but did it all handheld on 24p.

'm just trying to figure out if it was because of the zooming that this one was more shaky or if the canon stabilizes the images better than the HMC 150. Thoughts?

Thanks for all the help!

Leslie Davis · July 22nd, 2009, 04:04 PM

I guess that link didn't work...So here it is again.

Noa Put · July 23rd, 2009, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie Davis

So here it is again.

That looks bad..first impression would be that the ois was off but it could also be during the moving around and the cameraman not keeping the camera stable.
I have a xh-a1 and it has one of the best ois I ever had, I can make recordings handheld that almost look like their on a tripod (with the lens wide)

Also what Mike said that progressive and ois don't go together might need a bit more explaining, I always film weddings in the progressive format and only turn the ois off when on a tripod, when handheld it goes on and I never saw any disadvantage doing that.
With the ois turned on I can zoom in handheld and still maintain a very steady picture, don't have to try that with the ois disabled as the image will shake noticeably.

Leslie Davis · August 5th, 2009, 03:20 PM

Sorry for the slow response. I've had alot of changes lately and haven't been keeping up with my forum posts. But I really appreciate the responses.

For the last wedding, I rented both the Panasonic HMC 150 (as my primary) and then the Canon XH-A1 (as my backup camera). The Panasonic was an awesome camera with excellent low light capabilities. It totally blew the Canon out of the water on that, but it was just way to shaky...if I could figure out what to do to minimize that, I would buy it. If not, I'm not sure it's worth the extra $$$.

Any suggestions?

Mike Harvey · August 5th, 2009, 04:27 PM

OIS tends to accentuate the strobe effect of progressive scan... at least that what I remember from the DVX100 days. I've never even bothered to try it on the HMC, so I may be talking out of my rear end on that one. I just remember trying it on the old DVX once or twice, and never using it again because of the jitterryness I saw.

But I only asked that because I wasn't sure what Leslie meant by "bumpy". Now that I've seen the footage, I really don't know what to tell you beyond operator error. It really does look like someone who doesn't know how to hold the camera. Looking along the edges of the shot, you can see what goes out of frame and what doesn't, and that tells me the shooter just needs to learn how to hold it steady. OIS or not, the manual says that it can't help excessively shaky footage, and this appears to be that.

I tend not to shoot hand held, because I'm from the school of thought that one should be shooting from a tripod or some other stabilizer whenever possible, and avoid handheld at all costs. These little handheld cameras are hard to hold steady for extended periods. I would never shoot a whole wedding that way... even at a few pounds, the muscles involved will just get tired after only a few minutes.

I would consider investing in a good monopod if you don't want to be tied to a single location. But being tied to a single location on a two camera wedding isn't a bad thing... excessively moving around really doesn't add anything unless you have some sort of slider that only moves a little.

Also, if you look at the bottom of the footage, you can see he's trying to negotiate moving through the pews sideways while shooting. I know I could never pull that off as fast as he moved (at least at my church, with how little space there is to move between pews), HMC, DVX, A1, or a trusty DVCPro shouldermount camera. That's just hard.

Okay, way more than I intended to write, but I don't think this shaky footage ultimately can't be blamed on the camera, unless there is a defect and the chips are physically moving. I love my HMC, and have gotten great results. I think the shooter just needs practice.

Leslie Davis · August 15th, 2009, 12:18 PM

Great! That makes me feel alot better about considering purchasing the HMC. I love the quality you get from the HMC in low light situations!!! Like I think I said before, the cameraman isn't a professional cameraman. So I knew it would be possible that it was just cameraman error. But I just needed to make sure...so that I can feel good about purchasing the HMC. I'll get him to practice some more...he'll learn! And I'll look into a monopod.

Thanks for the help!

July 16th, 2009, 04:19 PM	#1
Leslie Davis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 29	HMC bumpy? I rented a Panasonic HMC 150 for my sister's wedding, so because I was so involved in the wedding I hired someone to be my camera man. This is my only experience with the 150, but I am considering purchasing one for future weddings and other special events. I noticed that my sister's wedding video from the 150 turned out incredibily bumpy. I'm comparing this video with video taken from the Canon XH-A1 which seems to stabilize the image very well. I'm trying to figure out if this video was so bumpy because my camera man was incredibily shaky, if he forgot to use the O.I.S., or if this camera just isn't as good with the image stabilization as the xh-a1...please tell me your experiences with the 150. Thanks!!!

July 20th, 2009, 08:43 AM	#3
Jeff Kellam Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 656	Post a sample of the video. I have seen lumpy video from the HMC-150. __________________ Panasonic HMC150/Canon A1/JVC HD1/Sony Vegas 8.0c

July 16th, 2009, 05:41 PM	#2
Mike Harvey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 43	You'll need to be a little more specific in how the camera was used... were the auto settings used, or were things in manual? Was this used on a tripod, or hand held (it sounds like hand held, but better to be clear)? What was the frame rate? And what do you mean by "bumpy"? Do you mean the image was shaky? The image looked jittery/strobey? One thing to point out... 24p + OIS = bad. Actually, I believe progressive scan anything + OIS =bad. Realistically, you should never use OIS and just learn to use it better hand held. Or better yet... use a tripod (or monopod or shoulder mount if need be). I have a sneaking suspicion this is the case... either the camera man was just shakey, he used the OIS, or a combination of the two. I have never used the OIS on this camera (or the DVX before it) for the simple reason that I don't trust it (or auto settings in general). The images are great.

July 20th, 2009, 11:31 AM	#4
Simon Zimmer Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Easton, Maryland Posts: 497	I mentioned this in another post that my video did not seem smooth either but I am new to using a BIG camcorder so I think i just need to practice more with it. So not using the OIS is a better idea? I guess especially for pans huh? I will have to experiment with that. I would be curious to see a sample video to see if it is the same problem I was having. I was also using 30p and 24p with automatic on and was using it as a handheld. Simon

July 20th, 2009, 07:33 PM	#5
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	I have also noticed that video from the HMC is considerably more "bumpy" and "strobby" than what I'm used from 6 years of shooting with the DVX... This only seems to occur with 24P which leads me to believe the 24P on the HMC somehow results in a different temporal quality compared to the 24P + pulldown from the DVX.. Mike: Please expand on why you think 24P and OIS is bad...

August 5th, 2009, 03:20 PM	#9
Leslie Davis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 29	Sorry for the slow response. I've had alot of changes lately and haven't been keeping up with my forum posts. But I really appreciate the responses. For the last wedding, I rented both the Panasonic HMC 150 (as my primary) and then the Canon XH-A1 (as my backup camera). The Panasonic was an awesome camera with excellent low light capabilities. It totally blew the Canon out of the water on that, but it was just way to shaky...if I could figure out what to do to minimize that, I would buy it. If not, I'm not sure it's worth the extra $$$. Any suggestions?

August 5th, 2009, 04:27 PM	#10
Mike Harvey Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 43	OIS tends to accentuate the strobe effect of progressive scan... at least that what I remember from the DVX100 days. I've never even bothered to try it on the HMC, so I may be talking out of my rear end on that one. I just remember trying it on the old DVX once or twice, and never using it again because of the jitterryness I saw. But I only asked that because I wasn't sure what Leslie meant by "bumpy". Now that I've seen the footage, I really don't know what to tell you beyond operator error. It really does look like someone who doesn't know how to hold the camera. Looking along the edges of the shot, you can see what goes out of frame and what doesn't, and that tells me the shooter just needs to learn how to hold it steady. OIS or not, the manual says that it can't help excessively shaky footage, and this appears to be that. I tend not to shoot hand held, because I'm from the school of thought that one should be shooting from a tripod or some other stabilizer whenever possible, and avoid handheld at all costs. These little handheld cameras are hard to hold steady for extended periods. I would never shoot a whole wedding that way... even at a few pounds, the muscles involved will just get tired after only a few minutes. I would consider investing in a good monopod if you don't want to be tied to a single location. But being tied to a single location on a two camera wedding isn't a bad thing... excessively moving around really doesn't add anything unless you have some sort of slider that only moves a little. Also, if you look at the bottom of the footage, you can see he's trying to negotiate moving through the pews sideways while shooting. I know I could never pull that off as fast as he moved (at least at my church, with how little space there is to move between pews), HMC, DVX, A1, or a trusty DVCPro shouldermount camera. That's just hard. Okay, way more than I intended to write, but I don't think this shaky footage ultimately can't be blamed on the camera, unless there is a defect and the chips are physically moving. I love my HMC, and have gotten great results. I think the shooter just needs practice.

August 15th, 2009, 12:18 PM	#11
Leslie Davis Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Abilene, TX Posts: 29	Great! That makes me feel alot better about considering purchasing the HMC. I love the quality you get from the HMC in low light situations!!! Like I think I said before, the cameraman isn't a professional cameraman. So I knew it would be possible that it was just cameraman error. But I just needed to make sure...so that I can feel good about purchasing the HMC. I'll get him to practice some more...he'll learn! And I'll look into a monopod. Thanks for the help!