Who's getting an HMC80?
 

Hi All

Panasonic's new camera which is due for release in September this year is the HMC80. I'm currently running HMC72's so this looks like a big shoulder-mount HMC40. It has the advantages of the 150 (like XLR audio etc etc, but has the extra advantage of the ENG styling.
Panny blurb sheet link is below... I definately want two of these !!!

Panasonic USA Pressroom

Chris

I want one! This is what the HMC40 should have been. Quite a long time ago, I had considered buying an AG-HMC70, but several things stopped me:

1) Price.

2) Lack of manual focus/zoom

3) Lack of 24/30p shooting modes

4) Wonky location of LCD panel

5) Single-chip imager derived from a consumer-grade cam

It looks like the HMC80 addresses all of these issues and more - and here's hoping the viewfinder is a full 2.7" when the eyepiece is swung away.

Panasonic has a winner on its hands with this one, and while $2895 may be the list price, on the street it will probably sell for closer to $2395, which puts it right into the HMC40's ballpark. Wedding/event videographers will snap these up by the gazillions.

Right now, Canon has a huge gap between its consumer-grade and pro-grade cams; why aren't they building something like the HMC80 to satisfy the needs of advanced prosumer camera users?

I have to agree with you both Panasonic has got it right with the HMC80. I recently assinged my HMC70 to backup duty. I'm working with the Sony NX5U and love it. Anyone with an HMC70 will want to get the HMC80.

This will probably be my next primary camera upgrade. Do I wish I could afford an EX1r instead? Yes; but this camera seems to offer a hell of a lot of features at a very attractive price.

The only downside to this cam is the 1/4 inch chips but I'm coming from the FX7 so it should be very similar in low light to what I'm already dealing with.

Assuming the Aussie pricing doesn't get blown completely out of proportion it should come in at under AU$4000 - with very little competition price-wise. Hopefully it will make it out by the Srping Wedding season!

Hi John

There don't seem to be any image sensor specs as yet but it makes sense that they will use the HMC40 3MOS sensors. All that was mentioned was they are 3 megapixels which is higher than the 70's 2.2megapixels!!

Our version will be the HMC82 (PAL) and based on the HMC72, I would suspect that they would be way over $4K from Panasonic or VideoGuys but certainly in the low $3000's if you buy from GlobalMediaPro in New Zealand ... Been dealing with them for years and they are A-OK!!! I would think that, based on the Aus release of the HMC42, the 82 should only be a few month behind the USA release date of September!

Could be here by Christmas but I'm usually so busy I have to do camera replacements in June when it's wet and cold here!!!

Chris

This is going to be one heck of a camera although I'm shocked there hasn't been more excitement about it. There is a post in the news section here and there has been little to no discussion. I would have thought this camera would have been a dream for a lot of people.

The HMC40 is an amazing little camera and I am willing to bet my life on the HMC80 using the same chips. In fact I think it is a HMC40 in a larger shell. I think they even took the guts from the XLR adapter from the HMC40 and put then in the back of the HMC80.

We all know the image quality is equal to cameras costing 4x as much in decent lighting. Now the camera also offers a large form factor for better camera handling and a more professional look with your clients. If you can use lights for the type of shooting you do then this is going to be a very professional camera.

Thomas Smet writes:

"The HMC40 is an amazing little camera and I am willing to bet my life on the HMC80 using the same chips. In fact I think it is a HMC40 in a larger shell. I think they even took the guts from the XLR adapter from the HMC40 and put then in the back of the HMC80."

Well, the official news release from Panasonic says the HMC-80 will be capable of taking 10.6-megapixel stills, and the HMC-40 has the same capability. Looking at some of the photos of the new camcorder, I can see that the focus ring looks exactly like the one on the HMC-40. So do the manual focus/iris controls.

So, with those little bits of information in mind, I think you're right, we're looking at an HMC-40 in an HMC-80 body. While the HMC-70 is a decent camera in its own right, the HMC-80 will be light-years ahead in terms of quality and capability.

I suspect that the XLR will stay as it is. My HMC72's already have the identical case and XLR bits and pieces so that will be just as it is and they will probably add the HMC40 boards and controls.

I must admit that the ability to adjust iris without the menu is really great!!!

Anyone found any specs on the 3MOS chips yet.. I am presuming that they will still be the 1/4", same as the 40.

Remember that plenty of people DON'T like a shoulder-mount camera!! Compact cameras like the HMC40 are easy to carry and take up less space. My HMC72's with a wireless receiver and RodeMic also weigh in at nearly 8lbs!!! The big case is very solidly built and that adds a lot of weight. Handheld shots are, of course, a breeze and really stable!!

Chris

Bob Diaz has a little video of his first day or so at NAB.
Not sure if it can be found here. I think near the end of the piece he has a Panny Rep discussing a bit about the 80. At one point it sounds like he says it will have a similar image block to that of the 40. If that's of any help.

Thanks Rick

Not much on the video but it does confirm that the 1/4" sensors are used.

I do weddings with my HMC72's and as long as you have an on-cam light there is no problem at all with their 1/4" CCD's ...just have to get my head around switching to 3MOS but weddings have virtually no high speed motion (unless the groom makes a break for it!!!) The odd problem with flash is not a big issue!!

Chris

The original press release quotes Jan Crittenden Livingston, Panasonic's Product Line Manager as saying:

"The new camcorder offers the image performance of our HMC40, plus added professional features."

She all but confirms that it is the same (or very similar) imager used as in the HMC-40.

Brochure
 

Hi all

Here´s a preliminar brochure I´ve found on the net:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...pre_E_ntsc.pdf

It sure looks nice... very nice.

Cheers!

Here's the link to the video file on VIMEO:



While at NAB, I had a chance to talk to the engineer who designed the HMC40 and the HMC80. It's the same chip as the HMC40 and the same lens as the HMC40. The one advantage of the HMC80 is with the larger size, there's more room for the buttons. Also the camera supports the SD modes of 480/24p, 480/30p, and the flier I got said, "480/60p", but I wonder if that isn't a typo and the mode is really 480/60i.

I did take photos, but I just got back and I have a lot to do before I can get things sorted out. However, I will post photos later on.


Bob Diaz

OOH! OOH! Right here! *waves hands at Chris*
 

Yeah.

This is what I've been looking for for transition to HD with my recitals, etc.

The price point is likely going to be around $2500 when it hits the street and I like the shoulder mount. It'll make things a lot easier when I move around with my cam. Far more stable than a DVX on a monopod or handheld.

I figure, hopefully, I can sell my 2 DVXb cams and have enough for one HMC80 and then cash for the second.

Alex! Thanks for the link to the brochure.
Bob! Thanks for the video. You're likely correct. 480/60i not 60p.

I believe I have found my cams for the move to HD.

ian

Why wouldn't it be able to do 480p60 if it can do 720p60?

Hi Ian

My reaction exactly!!! I did a wedding on Saturday on the beach with a LOT of sky in the background which, of course, means opening the iris and on the HMC72 that means the menu etc etc !!

What I REALLY like is the iris thumbwheel on the lens barrel... instant adjustment if conditions change and so easy too!!!

We will only get it around Christmas but my HMC72's are only 9 months old so they will still have a decent resale value to offset the cost of the HMC80's (Our's here will be 82's as we are PAL)

Chris

Because the only standard definition video it has is the normal DV format, which is 480i60 / 480p30 / 480p24.

I have the same preliminary flier as Bob, and I think he's right, the 480p60 it states is most likely a typo. According to Panasonic's own press release (which is more readily correctable since it's online): "In standard definition DV, the camcorder records 480/60i, 480/30p, 480/24p."

From http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...82010103536709

Hope this helps,

What, no 1080/60p??
 

The picture quality of the Panasonic TM700 consumer camcorder blew me away with their new 1080/60p mode @ 28Mbps, so I was hoping they would use it on this new cam too....but no such luck.

Actual Hands-ON Review?
 

Anyone had actual HMC80/82 (PAL) Hands-on Review? I currently own HMC72 (PAL Version) & very interested to get HMC82 (PAL) version, the only concern me is the Flip-up LCD Viewfinder, question is what if i mount cam in higher position, turn the viewfinder downward with open cap, will viewfinder cap Hold it while LCD facing downward or will opened viewfinder hold it or Fall down or close it while the viewfinder in downward position?

appreciate if anyone from Panasonic can clear this for me... :)

Andrew,

It's a bit too early for anyone to be able to do a hands on review of the camera, it's just not out yet. However, from what I saw and heard at NAB, I can say that the video performance and image quality will match the HMC-40 exactly. One of the engineers from Japan who has worked on both the HMC40 and the upcoming HMC80 said that it's the same lens and image sensors for both cameras.

The larger size of the HMC80 does allow the camera to have more room for menu buttons and additional controls.

As for the viewfinder, the engineer said that she was working on improving the flip up magnifier so that it would be more solid. In going through all the photos I took, I'm sorry I didn't take a photo of the viewfinder mount flipped up. I've uploaded the three photos of the camera that I did take...

The current prototype at NAB was a bit to fragile, so they really didn't want us playing around with the viewfinder and breaking it. However DV Expo is coming up September 29 - 30 (LA, California), so I'll get another shot of seeing the camera in a few months and can report what I see. Until then, I know this doesn't answer you key question, but I hope it helps some....


Bob Diaz

Hi Andrew

The US launch is the end of September so don't hold your breath for a release this year!! We will probably get the 82 released close to, or just after Christmas. They are doing the viewfinder the same way as the DSLR guys are doing it with a loupe. All they have done is put the LCD inside the EVF housing and provided a eyecup to use it as an EVF or flip the eyecup out of the way to use it as an LCD.

On our HMC72's the flip out LCD is pretty flimsy anyway.. I suspect one could easily break it off!! I very seldom use my LCD!! The EVF is actually more useful and with the LCD out of the way on the HMC80, you can check/get to audio controls easier!!

Chris

Chris
thanks for the input..

most of the time, we use HMC72 for Multi-cam live-feed, that reason very particular and concern for LCD when mount on tripod above cameraman head level. if the eye-cap hardly hold it when in open position, might give hassle for viewing tru viewfinder...

I should be getting this once the PAL version comes out. I will be selling my 72 and probably add some money to pay for it.

Hi Andrew

That's a very valid point!! I would suspect that they will have a spring in the hinge at least so the eyepiece will either be fully open or fully closed. I am suspecting that you will often need to tilt the whole EVF downwards to say 45 degrees below horizontal as the cam will be sorta 6' or 7' above the operator. As long as the hood has a spring clip it should still stay open. If the camera is going to be static on a tripod then you could also look at adding a 7" LCD monitor to a bracket on the tripod (they are under $50!!) which will be a lot easily that trying to look upwards at a tiny EVF and get a stiff neck!!! If I was running high angle cams I would most definately organise an LCD on the tripod somewhere so I could look straight ahead rather than upward.

Chris

hmc 70 vs hmc 80
 

Hi Chris

Just as a matter of interest; how much extra would you be prepared to pay for a hmc 80? Realistically, with the 80; all you'd be getting is some better manual functionality (lens rings etc) over the 70. Will the image quality be that much better? I'm not so sure whether the improvement will be significant enough to warrant a much bigger price tag. What a shame that the hmc 150 isn't shoulder-mounted at the same price point...

Hi Paul

Not really that much actually!!!! I very much doubt whether the average viewer will be able to spot the difference and I'm pretty happy with the 72's at the moment. I do like the idea of being able to dial up an iris setting manually... that would be nice. I'm still a little hesitant about CMOS too!! I guess we will have to see what the entry price is???

Oh yes!! A shoulder-mount HMC150 would be great!! I might also look at the 150 and put it on a shoulder mount rig!!!

Chris

Tm700
 

Hi Chris

Thanks Chris. On another note, the TM700 would be nice on the shoulder (for only $1400 Aussie!). The little bugger does 1080 50p (Pal) at 28mbps. Presumably, the next mode down on the 700 would be 50i (at 17 mbps?). Question: would that mode produce a better image (or equal to) than the equivalent 50i on the hmc 72? The reason I ask is because the rate for the 72 is 13mbps...

Your thoughts?

I wouldn't underestimate the quality difference over the HMC70 - things have come a long way since it's inception.

I've not seen footage from the HMC70, but I have seen footage from the the first Panasonic (& worlds first?) AVCHD camera, the SD1, which I believe the HMC70 is based off. My first impression when I looked closely at that footage was that the compression was not as good as HDV, which was itself pretty terrible. Then again I may have been biased because I was afraid of the new technology! These days, with increased bitrates and more mature technology, AVCHD smokes HDV. So I think you'll notice that difference quite a bit if you upgrade.

The CMOS sensors might be a bit frustrating, but they'll probably give you a bit more low light performace as well so it's a pretty fair trade-off I think.

I'm due for a camera upgrade somtime around the end of this year/start of next year. I'm hoping to get the AX-2000 or NX5 but if I can't stretch that far this will be my next choice.

I guess if it's a new model it SHOULD be better but the price might make it un-economical???

You have to remember that although I shoot HD I still transcode to SD..brides on this side of the country don't even know how to spell BluRay!!! All my work is output on DVD and seriously, is the average wedding couple going to be able to say ...our wedding was shot at 28mbs look at the difference!!! 99.9% of them ONLY look at the content!! so whether you capture at 6mbs or 60mbs I doubt whether they would really know!!!

My wife was watching TV the other night and flipping thru channels and settled on a series which was broadcast in HD... I mentioned it to her and she said that she really couldn't see much difference!!! I wonder if the average householder could spot the difference between SD and HD if they were not told in big titles that this is an HD broadcast????

For me it all about camera convenience and if a new model has controls or features that do a better job or make life easier for me then I will look at it!! I think we more than often get so wrapped up with technical specifications that we forget that we should be shooting for content!!!

I certainly wouldn't spend say, an extra $2K, on a camera because it has a higher bitrate...only if it makes my job easier. I used to shoot weddings about 4 seasons ago with Panasonics MD10000 (pal version of the DVC20) It only shot in 4:3 and had 1/6" chips and brides did nothing but rave about "how clear the video is!!!" I only upgraded because I need a 16:9 camera and wanted a shoulder-mount too...I didn't really need HD but I must admit shooting to card is neat and easy!!!

Seriously I have watched some of my 4:3 footage and in terms of resolution on a standard 42" TV the average viewer wouldn't know the difference.

Of course, I will still look at the new HMC82's when they arrive!!

Chris

All very good points.

Unfortunately, perception is still relevant with a lot of potential clients; so a shoulder mounted camera is desireable in most instances (sad, but true). Similarly, most of the content will only be streaming on client's websites. Nevertheless, it would be nice to shoot content at the highest possible quality in the first instance; in case it needed to be used for something other than web streaming. The hmc 70 would appear to be the most cost-effective compromise at the moment; but I would welcome your comments.

What other shoulder mounted cameras are currently available in the same price range as a hmc 70?

Hi Paul

Shoulder mount cameras in our price range are scarce!!! I just checked my supplier (GMP in NZ) and they have HMC72's for AUS$2380 ... that's not a bad deal at all.

I must admit I'm biased but I'm more than happy with my hardworking pair of 72's and would quite happily buy another set. However bear in mind that they are quite heavy!! (With a Rode Mic mine are 3.1kg!!)

Watch the HD video on a big TV via HDMI and 13mbs more than adequately handles the format!!! however it you want a higher bitrate then you will have to wait for the 82's!!

Chris

Never mind the higher bit rate for now Chris (and I'm no video engineer). I know that a hmc 150 will perform better in low light situations. However, what I'd like to know is the answer to this question: All things being equal; same controlled studio lighting and same subject matter, using a tripod- mounted hmc 70 and hmc 150 side by side...

(1) Will one be able to notice a quality and resolution difference between the two cameras when screened on a 32" tv?

(2) What about if the subject is moving on the set (i.e.walking)? Will the 150 produce better results than the 70 during motion (under equally controlled lighting)?

Your thoughts?

Hi Paul

Technically, the 150 will most certainly be the better camera..you are looking a 1/3" chips against 1/4" chips so if you plugged each camera into 32" TV's via HDMI, would you see a difference....???? If you had a technical setup and had both cameras pointing at a resolution chart then, absolutely yes!!!

If you are filming a general scene with people in it, it really depends how hard you are looking ...If you set up the whole "test" then yes, you would see minute resolution differences and the 152 would naturally come out on top...it HAS to, it is a superior camera!!!

Grab 3 people off the street and ask them to watch some footage and you will probably get varied results..why?? because people watch CONTENT in a movie NOT technical perfection.

Your answer here is VERY simple....Can you afford AUS$4500 or only AUS$2500 ???? If you can afford the 152 then get it...I do weddings so I need two cameras so it made more sense for me to buy TWO 72's for $5000 rather than one 152 for $4500 .... I get awesome results and I'm 100% happy so the decision is yours.

Chris

Thanks Chris

Then, clearly, hmc 72 quality for website streaming will be more than adequate?

Hi Paul

IMO they are awesome for a lot more than web streaming but your one small issue is that it doesn't shoot progressive. If you have enough business to justify an HMC52 then get one and shoot in 1280x720 30P and you have the perfect format for online providers. If you are uploading SD web video then it doesn't matter.

Both will handle web video fine..just seems a bit of an overkill for web video..surely a little TM700 will be just as good (and cheaper??) Otherwise I would also explore the DSLR market..you can get a Canon 5000D for under a grand and it will shoot awesome web video!!!

Chris

In a studio setting, with good lighting, you'd be hard pressed to pick them apart. So in this situation, it all comes down to what other features you need - as Chris said the HMC70 doesn't have progressive modes, which are preferable for web delivery.

Where you will notice the difference is live events - where lighting is generally dim and there are alot of camera flashes going off. Here, the HMC150 will give a much brighter image due to the 1/3" CCDs, and it will hold up alot better when there's flashes going off all over the place. The HMC70, on the other hand (as well as pretty much any HDV camera) will struggle with flashes because the interframe codec can't handle huge changes like the entire scene suddenly changing brightness, so you end up with a few frames of completely pixelated, blocky, mess.

The only other shoulder mount camera in this price range in the Sony HD1000. It has it's pro's and con's, just like all the other low cost cameras. It records HDV to tape, has a manual focus ring, but no XLR inputs and uses a single CMOS sensor not 3 CCD's. It can be bought in Aus for well under $2000, though.

Hi John

Good response!!! However I have shot close on 40 weddings now with the 72's and have never ever had a flash issue!! Remember it's a CCD not 3MOS camera. It's good but not great in low light. I have an LED light on the B-Cam after the sun goes down, just for safety and at some receptions you really need it!!

I did extensive research on the HD1000 before changing cams 2 years ago and my advice would be if you are ONLY shooting in bright sunlight then the single chip works well but it's a disaster in low light with an incredible amount of video noise as the gain goes up!!! Read some of the posts in the Sony section here and you will see some examples of low light noise. The 72's handle low light very well considering the chips are only 1/4"

Paul??? when you say "web streaming" what sort of content will you be shooting and where will it be hosted??? Some info here might help you decide on a suitable camera?

Chris

Hi Chris

Yes, website video clips of around one minute either embedded directly into a client's site; or streaming from another dedicated server. I guess some clients will be happy to have their clips stream via Youtube also.

I'm an ex-commercial photographer; and many old clients are keen on having video clips in their website content. I'm not keen on skimping on the audio either; if these clips are to be produced, then I'd like them done well. I'm wondering whether the GH1 could be the most versatile unit for me rather than a dedicated video camera? The only thing that would bother me about this choice is keeping the damn thing steady during pans...

Clearly, I'm no video expert; but as an old stills pro, I understand magic lighting and can recognise brilliant images when I see them. Meanwhile, you've convinced me that a hmc 72 would not be the best choice considering that I expect to be shooting quite a bit of web content. Also, I'll be staying away from tape cameras.

I'm sure that spending no more than $2kAus will buy me the camera that I need (rather than what I want). Any useful advice on the video front will be appreciated...

Your thoughts?

Hi Paul

I love the GH1 and it would probably suit you better as a photographer. You can get a host of rigs for DSLR's now that make stability a lot more simple...being light you can also venture into the world of stedicams as the rig is light enough to handhold without your arm dropping off. The only problem with some (like the Canon) is restricted record time but that would worry you either.

Well worth a look I would say unless you are planning to venture into event videos where the 72 is a more versatile unit... I shoot all my weddings on a pair of 72's but for short productions looking at a DSLR is a great idea...you can always record audio on a Zoom H2 or similar so you get excellent vision and audio!!

Chris

Think you're right about the GH1 Chris; all the reviews and forum posts point to a sensible compromise. Haven't quite stumbled across all the functional details yet though. For instance, are the lenses manual focus (as well as auto)? Also, I do believe that there are issues with zooming...?

Apparently, the audio quality of the GH1 appears to be fine? I would imagine that recording a separate voice-over (with the camera); and later merging in post could take care of a number of website clips?