Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hi Guys

Our AC-130's are now available on this side of the pond so I'm think really seriously about replacing my HMC80's now... the only real hurdle is the switch from shoulder mount but by all accounts the LCD is really easy to use and I can put the cam on a simple shoulder mount and use it as a shoulder camera.

I'm hoping to see a huge difference in indoor shoots with the big lens and 1/3rd chip versus the tiny 1/4" chips and small 46mm lens....am I having too many expectations or will indoor shoots be a lot better???

Anyone bolted a shoulder rig under these cameras yet... I was wondering if you can use something simple like just a rail and shoulder pad and then use your right hand thru the strap like a shoulder-mount cam ??? Is it worth getting a rig with two front handles as grips or not???

Nate has already very kindly given me lots of info and this seems like the best upgrade to go for..I could go the JVC HM750 route but then they are nearly double the price (actually more than double with the fancy battery packs ) I can land two AC-130's here for under $8K (and that includes duty too!!!)

Anyone else have any convincing pros for this camera..I know Don Bloom was looking at them too!!!

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Chris,
I'm sure the 130 would do better in low light than the currents cams you're using. If nothing else the larger chips will make a hugh difference.
As you know I use the DVMultirig and love it however it is pricey. I also have an old HabbyCam shoulder mount that I was using when I first wnet to small form factor cams. I did modify it a bit to take my wireless receiver and can actually use it with the spring rod from the multirig if I wish. I like the stability the 2 outboard handles give me but can and have used the simpler mount with my hand thru the camera strap and other hand on the lens barrel and it worked fine. Up to you which you're more comfy with. Whatever you go with I'm sure will work out well for you.

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hey Don

I knew I would get a comment from you and maybe a hint as to what direction you were taking with replacement cameras???

Sadly the prospect of using a 700 series JVC has blown out the window (maybe there was a reason?) Apart from the camera costing me $6.6K EACH landed against the 130 at just under $4K each you still have to factor in the fact that the v-lock batteries are crazy prices too.. and that would come way more than a DVMultirig!!

Shucks, I have just seen that the 130 has a Sony style mic holder and not a 2nd cold shoe..I guess that means that there is no way that you could use a Rode Videomic on it?? Anyone know if the 130/160 mic clamp would clamp over the tube section of a videomic if you removed the shock mounting??? The tube that comes out of the battery/electronics housing is just under 1" in diameter.

I can get one of these rigs from SE Asia for around $350 ..they might work???

Still love to know what direction you are heading towards Don???

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Chris,

I presume you are also trying to mount a light or wireless receiver on the camera? I wonder if the accessory mountings (bolt holes) on the handle would allow you to mount any of that?

(I too am "Humming and hah-ing" about returning to the world of Panasonic with these cameras... all I need is money!)

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hi Mike

On my HMC82's I managed to find somewhere for the receivers..I usually have two on the back on the A-Cam used as the main cam at weddings and just a single on the B-Cam. The HMC82 has two cold shoes up front and I usually use the offset one for a Rode VodeoMic and keep the middle cold shoe for a video light to use at wedding receptions where it gets pretty dark. I noticed that the 130 only has one cold shoe and then a clamp style mic holder where my Rode VideoMics usually go. I'm fairly sure I can take the Rode off it's suspension mount and clamp the round front piece on the 130 mic holder ..otherwise I'll have to swop them for something like the NG1 Rode... I just found it weird that you cannot have a mic on suspension mounts to keep noise down????

Yep the rig also is an option for mounting stuff but that's usually at the back and they keep that for radio receivers.... It's not the end of the world if I have to upgrade mics.

Haven't ordered the 130's yet but I figure I had better upgrade while there is a few pennies in the bank and before my March rush of weddings happens!!

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

"Anyone know if the 130/160 mic clamp would clamp over the tube section of a videomic if you removed the shock mounting??? The tube that comes out of the battery/electronics housing is just under 1" in diameter"

I received my AC-130 about 10 days ago. Just measured the microphone holder and it's a plastic clamp that measures about 27mm ID. However, there are squisable (is that a word?) rubber pads inside that reduce the ID to 20mm.

...Jerry

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Chris, If I do get something new this year, it's probably going to be either the 130 or 160. Perhaps one of each since I only need one camera for the reception but actually need 3 for ceremonies. So maybe a used 150 thrown in there for a C camera.

One reason I like the multirig is because of the receiver mounting plate on the back. It keeps it out of the way and helps balance the rig. AAMOF I found a couple of old BEC boxes that I uses on my fullsized rigs when I was using the Azden 500U receivers. The At1821 reciever fits pretty well in it, the box is a bit wide but the thickness of the box holds the receiver nicely. I mounted the bos to the back of the multirig and presto! All I need to do now is make a couple of longer cables and I'm all set. I hate using patch cables but until I get the new ones made I have no choice. No big deal. It works.

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Chris it looks like the only thing you might be sacrificing is the form factor of the the shoulder mount vs handheld (and it looks like you have that covered to an extent)

The jump from 1/4 chips to 1/3 will certainly be a welcome improvement for you

the specs report that the hmc 80 is f1.8-2.8 and the ac 130 is f1.6-3.2

so coupled with the 1/3 chips and that fast lens you should be getting a big performance boost

on top of that you'll be going from 12x to 22x :O

thats a BIG jump

theres also plenty of other new features that the 130 has over the 80s

So in short, if you've got the cash and the itch. Why not?

I think the benefits of this upgrade are far bigger than the possible con of going from shoulder mount to handheld

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Chris,

One thing I forgot - somewhere in my kit box I have an adapter which clamps into the mic mount and gives you another shoe mount. I think it's from Rycote:

http://www.rycote.com/products/acces..._shoe_adaptor/

Hey Tesco!

You could have a Videomic on that, a light on the front shoe, and a wireless receiver on the handle.

One thing I've read about these cameras are that they're well-balanced and not too much of a bind to hand-hold. Big, but not heavy.

Or get something like this:

http://www.rycote.com/products/acces...hoe_extension/

...put it cross-ways and you can mount two or mabe more devices on one cold shoe. Heck, they've got a 40cm wide one. I'd love to see that one in action!

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hi Guys

All the feedback is much appreciated indeed. Time to order and once I have them I'll get my butt into gear and organise one or two rigs.... I actually very seldom use both cameras shoulder mounted so I'm sure just one rig should be enough for now.

Rycote make all sorts of stuff..I'm amazed!!! I'll update on the progress as it happens and my thoughts on the cameras.

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Thanks for the shout out, Chris. I'm waiting for a render, so I tested your theories and took some photos! :)

A few things:

I hooked the camera to my 40" HDTV last night via HDMI and just played around with the picture profiles for a while. You certainly need to adjust the settings a bit in order to get the best possible image, but I think I finally have mine dialed in and I was quite impressed. With the right profile, 12db of gain is almost completely imperceivable - I don't like going much higher than that, but in a pinch I think 15-18db would definitely be usable. Also, if you zoom all the way into 21x, the lens aperture ramps down pretty significantly, but things are pretty good (≈F2.8) up to about 14x or 15x. My point is, I think you'll be impressed with the low-light sensitivity of the cam.

Something to think about is if 1080p60 is a necessary feature. The step-up AC160 is supposed to be getting this in the near future. After the initial release of the cameras, the prices came down a bit for the 160. At current US prices, I might have spent a little more to get that feature... I don't do just weddings, so full 1080p60 might not be as useful for your purposes. Just a thought - maybe even get one of each!

I happened to have a VideoMic laying around, and yes it does (sort of) fit in the mic holder. Not sure what covering up that part of the mic would do to sound, but it stays put solidly. The real problem is plugging in that 1/8" cable coming from the Rode. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think there's any 1/8" input on the camera. You'd need some sort of XLR to miniplug adapter.

The camera's mic holder does a better job with the mic than mounting the VideoMic on top with a "contraption" of some sort. In my case, I had a shoe extender I tried out. It works, but the whole thing is just so big and awkward! If you really wanted it to, the VideoMic would work, but if you're getting two brand new cameras, you might as well get a phantom-powered NTG-1 as well. You deserve it, right?

As far as the shoulder mount goes, I tried it out too - quite stable, but you'll definitely want some sort of a counterbalance to make it more comfortable to to use. I prefer to just cradle the back of the camera against the front of my shoulder but if you like a rig, that's cool too.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, photos attached of my experiments.

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Thanks Nate

You are a star!!!
I guess replacing the mics is not a big deal at all!! However just to confirm, I ripped the 3.5mm 'twirly' cable and plug out my Videomics when I got them and replaced with a decent quality cable and XLR plug so they have been XLR since new!! Probably a better solution is your first pic?? All one would need is an aluminium flat bar with a male cold shoe fitting on one end and then a standard cold shoe above that for the video light and on the other end of the bar another standard cold shoe for the mic. In fact on the HMC82 I had to change all my suspension ring orientations so the mic didn't foul my light!!! By making a custom one, I can make sure the shoes are far enough spaced to work!!!

I have tried 720 50P on my HMC82's and didn't see any huge improvement over 25P so nope the 50P or 60P isn't an issue with me at all. In fact as far as I know Panasonic have decided that the adding of 60P via firmware might not even be possible!!! Seems silly to pay for a 160 when I won't use the features.

I saw your previous pic 'snuggling' the cam and that might just be the easiest way to shoot...otherwise maybe just a simple aluminium rail under the cam and at the rear a pad at sorta 45 degrees...if you have seen the Sony EX3 you can use that cam as a shoulder mount and it's really comfortable but has nothing actually on your shoulder ...as you said, like a rifle butt

Thanks again for the pics!!

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Smart idea customizing the VideoMic to XLR! That should work perfect then.

I like the "cold shoe bar" but I'd have to recommend getting a quality one like the one listed by Rycote. I got a $10 one from eBay and it just isn't quite strong enough to trust. Used it once and it bent.

Almost something like this for the brace?: Redrock Micro - microBrace body pad

Also, I love the Pelican 1510 rolling case for the camera. If you're into hard cases, it fits pretty well!

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Chris,

I have 2 AC-130s. Over all nice cameras, but the auto-focus is pretty bad. If you use auto-focus a lot you might want to look at other cameras.

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Thanks Jeffery

I did read about that... I think there also might be a firmware fix coming out for that so the cam snap focusses in auto instead of coming in slowly. It probably could be an issue if you are tracking fast moving objects (and annoying too!!!) I mainly do weddings so it more than likely won't be an issue.

I have already paid for my two so I will have to live with it or work around it!! I'll report back next week on what I feel are issues too!!

Thanks to Nate too!! I do appreciate the effort and pics!! That support might just work!! It's tough deciding before you have a camera in your hands!! I'll also look at Cine City in India...They are very good at selling you "bits and pieces" of their rigs and they have a couple of neat DSLR rigs that just might do the job!!!

Now, anyone on this side of the pond looking for some neat condition HMC82's??

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Did you buy me 2 also? You know a belated birthday present? ;-)

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hey Don

Sadly our ones here are only PAL but if they were a freebie I'm sure you could live with it??

Seriously I can now give you some genuine assessment of the camera from a wedding point of view as they were amongst your list of possible upgrades.

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

I forgot about PAL. :-( Oh well.
Looking forward to you review and contests on the new toys!

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hi Don

Hopefully the results will be enough to convince you that it's the camera to upgrade to..I'll have to see myself first..they were shipped today so they will hit Customs on Monday/Tuesday and then overnight from the East Coast to us midweek.

I figured the DV option might be very useful for you as well??? You could still shoot in SD and produce DV-AVI files in 16:9 ..only difference is that they will be on a card not tape so the "weaning process" from your current cameras will be very gentle!!! The time saved in copying files to your drive as opposed to capturing them in realtime is a HUGE time saver!! Lots of extra hours saved means the wife can allocate you all those chores that need doing!!

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Well things have changed a bit. I'm in the process of signing a corporate client that I will be doing lots of seminars for (along with other stuff). The best part is I shoot and don't have to edit. Love it. Lots of time saved!!! Yay. Now here's the catch. End of the day (or days) I hand over the tapes to them! Yes they want tapes. They have their own editor and want to keep it that way! Well, I can't do that with the 130s so honestly because of the amount of work from them and the money involved I may simply either keep going with what I have (they're 100% fine with 4:3 SD) OR perhaps pick up something like a Z7 or Z5 or even a used JVCHD200. I'm not sure yet. Not that I necessarily need HD(V) or even 16:9 for them but it could be nice to have the option. I'm kind of leaning towards staying with what I have, bank ALL the cash and get out of the weddings at the end of the year. Just thinking out loud. Anyway, if I do make the switch to anything I'm about 100% sure it'll be the 130s but this developement does change the game a bit. Time will tell.
O|O
\--/

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hi Don

That sounds a nice contract!! I really cannot see the point of changing to an HDV camera as if the client is expecting SD 4:3 on a tape then the last thing you want to have to do is rush home and transfer HDV to your computer then render it back to SD and print BACK to tape... I'm sure there are plenty of PD150's for sale still if you do need an extra camera. That takes me back to my VHS weddings where the couple got the wedding video at the end of the reception!! Shoot the titles (usually just the invitation) and then edit in camera and as they exit the wedding eject the full VHS tape and collect your money..it was also a first generation copy so quality (in those days anyway) was the best they could expect!!!

I would just continue with the PD150..flip out the tape at the end of session and your work is done!! Does the 150 handle DVCAM tapes too or is that only the 170????

You can now spend evenings with the family instead of editing until midnight!!!

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Well since I have 3 PDs (2 170s and 1 150) and they all work great, even though they're long in the tooth, I take care of them with good routine maintenance so they're good to go for a long time yet.
I should say the client doesn't care if it's 4:3, 16:9, SD or HDV...they just want good quality tapes at the end of the day. You're right. Why spend money to buy something else when what I have works perfectly well for them. If things play out according to plan, it could be quite lucrative and maybe even allow me to cut back on the weddings by about 1/2 or more. One can only hope. Anyway, pretty soon I have to get ready to go meet with a bride and groom for October! Still gotta make a living.

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hi Guys

I have been looking at shoulder mount rigs and came to the conclusion that most of the cost is the fancy adjustable and sliding mounts etc etc. On my current HMC80's I have a simple fixed rail system which essentially is just 2 x 1/2" aluminium tubes with 1" flat bar to keep them parallel at the back, centre and front. Making a shoulder pad shouldn't be too complex as my foam shop has some awesome closed cell foam blocks (if I ask nicely he will also use his fancy cutter to make the "U" shape) Since these rails are only ever going on one camera, I don't need the sliding adjustments that commercial models have to have and can just determine the best cam mounting point and also add (slightly offset) a tripod mount block.

On the 80's I used a ENG rig (which the Multirig also has) which is a belt with a pouch and then a spring loaded rod from the pouch up to the rails just under the lens hood. This takes all the weight off the front of the camera. However I did add a mini-ball head between the spring rod and the rails so the system is flexible. The cheapest rig that will work on the 130 (from India) is nearly $300 with shipping so I'm pretty confident I can build two new rail systems on the same lines as the ones on my HMC80 and also still be able to use my spring loaded belt support instead of the usual two "handlegrips" most rigs have which essentially tie up both hands. I think I would rather have my right hand on the grip so framing and record are easily controlled and my left hand is still free to add another contact point or play with focus and iris when required. With the front handle system it seems you are powerless to tweak exposure or focus or framing as both hands are below the camera!!

Cams should arrive in a day or so and once I have the rails done, I'll post some pics!!

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Chris, as you know I have and love my multirig. I use a Varizoom Stealth LANC controller on the right side handle. that controls REC, zoom and focus. I keep my left hand on the other handle of the rig and control all with the right.
HOWEVER, I have an old Habby Cam shoulder mount that I used for 1 job in November. I re-worked it to take the spring rod from the multirig, kept my right hand in the strap to control REC and zoom and used my left hand on the lens barrel to control focus. Right after that job, I went right back to the DVMultirig. I like having the 2 handles to balance the rig out. It just works out well for me plus I can do some nice moves with the rig and keep the camera in relative plane. Not steadicam for sure but decent.

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Thanks Don

That's nice to know as I haven't used a rig with front handles at all. I see the trick using a controller on the handle. Well you have now given me some extra work to do!!! Definately worth adding some handles and see how they work. One of my little sideline incomes is producing tutorials for making rigs so I'm no stranger to DIY rigs at all having made around 29 different rigs from scratch.

I think there would be times when you just need the camera, then times when the support rod without front handles is the answers then other times (which I often notice with the HMC80's) when the support rod restricts your movement too much. There would also be times when the front handles are the answer.

Chris

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

One of the things I love about the Multirig type setup is I can lock down for a long period of time much like when I used full sized rigs with the ENG rig from DVTec. AAMOF I've still got that rig. Never know when you might need it. Plus I am a bit of a pack rat.
When you get you new toys and the rig set up make sure to post some pics.

Re: Should I get 2 x AC-130's??
 

Hi Don

They shipped from the warehouse overseas on Friday and were in my hot little hands at 10:30am today (it's Monday here!!)

I had a quick little play (couldn't resist!!) and the camera is great in low light!! I will actually do a comparison with the 1/4" chip 80 later. The LCD screen has all my familiar icons and I certainly cannot see any focus issues in auto...these are brand new so maybe panny has changed the firmware??? Even at 22X it focuses quickly and locks on with no issues... I will look at that since it was brought up, but a bit later in more detail. They are a good deal lighter than the HMC80!! Being a shoulder mount person I found they were quick useable handheld either with the EVF or LCD...if you snuggle the cam into your cheek I found that the LCD is somewhat too close to your face so maybe a simple rail and pad is the answer there. I'd like the camera to sit a bit further away from my face. If it has to be that close I think a loupe on the LCD might be very good so it works like the HMC80. So far I'm impressed but more to come later.

Chris