Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

I've been researching cameras for nearly a month.. looking at lots of options. I was interested in the Sony NX70 for a while, but the negative reviews made me back off from that. I also took a serious look at the DSLR Video solutions, but some of the work I'm doing or planning to do is more run and gun so a bulky setup is not a good option.

I will be using the camera to shoot instructional videos in outdoor gardening settings, as well as some outdoor interest pieces. I also shoot some sports video of local tennis matches as a hobby, and provide videos to the local college tennis teams. And, I've shot a dozen or more wedding videos in the past for friends (non professional). I use Adobe Premier Pro CS5.5. for NLE, so I'm pretty well setup for post production work (MacPro 8 core).

Originally I was looking at sub $3K for the camera.. but when I looked at all the options, I found that the camera I'd be most satisfied with all around was north or $4K. The Panasonic AG-AC160 seems to have what I'm looking for.. I found a new one for just under $4K.. free shipping.

I'm looking for more feedback/comments on it. I did not find a lot of threads related to that camera, so I'm wondering how many people are using it? It's a fairly new camera, so maybe there are not that many users just yet?

The other cameras I've looked at, that are less money, are the Canon XF100 and the NX7U. I think only the XF100 is a serious contender now.

Some of the things I like about the AC160:
- 22x zoom
- SD cards (versus CF)
- Manual controls
- 3 sensors
- new firmware to give 1080p 60fps (supposedly)
- Variable frame rate recording (this might be a neat feature, but I could honestly live without it.)
- Time lapse or interval recording (this is one I really want)

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Ed

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

I don't have that camera. But piling on your reasons FOR getting the camera.... from my experience, depending on what you have now, I think you will be glad for and enjoy that it has a 3 ring lens vs the 1 ring of the others. Another feature you may enjoy is the SDI out. It's handy when you want to add a field monitor or if you need an external record capability. Thirdly, the 3 position ND filter gives you more precision in your outdoor shooting. Plenty of times I would have liked that.

You didn't mention XLR audio but that's an important feature to have for the type of work you do... especially the corporate and instructional stuff.

Lastly, the overcranking will be handy for some coachable slow-mo footage for tennis.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

I've had my Panasonic AC130 (baby brother of the AC160) for about 6 weeks now. Here are my initial impressions:

Pros:
Superb images
Lots of manual controls - I love having all those knobs & switches [grin]

Cons:
OIS is not as good as I had hoped at full zoom. I made a YouTube video of this: StabilizationTest - Panasonic AC-130 vs TM700 - YouTube
Vignetting at full zoom and F5.6 to full open. Another YouTube video: Panasonic AC130 Vignetting Part II - YouTube

Comments:
There's lots of discussion about auto focus problems with these cameras. While not as snappy as I would have liked, I've not seen it as a problem.

Hope this helps,
...Jerry

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

So I was a little scared to use my new AC130s to videotape a skating show using auto-focus. Not sure how anyone would want, or even could, use manual focus for an event like this. Especially with a single skater skating fast!

You will see two samples below. The first one is a sample video. It starts with a complete performance from one skater with the main camera perspective (no sound). After that there are a few clips that you can see the auto-focus not working very good. The second is a preview video for the skating show.

My overall thoughts:
- Overall I am "Satisfied" with the auto-focus for this event (I had low expectations to begin with)
- The auto-focus was not as good as last year when we used Canon XH-A1, but not much worse
- Besides auto-focus, everything else was great using the AC130 for an event like this
- Love my new scene file picture profile, love the color. Let me know if you would like the details

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Thanks for the video posts. I see some focus hunting toward the end of the first video.

I have to say that I'd still go with manual focus on this type of shot, due to the background changing so much, and near-field objects entering the focus area on occasion. You could perhaps use focus assist to help make it faster, and insure that the skater is in focus not the background.

Another thought would be to use the focus square, and make sure the square is centered on the skater. That might be difficult if you drift off, but if the focus speed is slow enough, it might work well.

I have my order in for an AC160, so I've committed to it now.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

So far the focus issues I've seen (with video) show scenes with various possible focal points, and the camera hunts for the best point. I'm not sure what people are expecting the camera to do.. read their mind? Make an AI choice? There are ways to direct the focus to a particular area, which is one of the things you get with a higher end camera, choices and options. Also, the manual focus would work just fine in several of the vimeo videos I've seen that highlight focus issues.

I don't have experience with a range of cameras, so I don't know what the expectation is/would be, or if other cameras would perform better in the same situations. That would be the real test...

Alas, I've committed to the AC160.. It's all over but the crying (over $$$) now..

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

You said you found one NEW for UNDER 4k? Was it a private sale or is this a retailer? Prices I saw for that cam were around $4700 last I checked.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

BH has it listed for $4700, but when you put it in the cart, its $4200. I found it at Ryther camera listed for $3999. I actually ordered it, with the free shipping. They told me it would be shipped in about a week, and take 7-10 days, i.e. upwards of 3 weeks. So I upgraded the shipping, then they said that would be an extra $159. What? then, they said for just a couple hundred they would 'upgrade the camera' to the latest 2012 version (?), add in the Manufacturers 3year warranty, and a higher capacity battery... and they would throw in UV filter.. all for $4300. I fell for that.

Later that night, I thought about it, and something didn't feel right. The Panasonic warranty is 3 years period, according to their website. They were not giving me another battery just a supposedly "upgraded one", that didn't make sense either. A UV filter... like $16. And, they shipping 'upgrade' was a week. Sounded like UPS ground. I decided that BH was probably the best 'deal', since their reputation is quite good, they have a great return policy, and reasonable, no B-S shipping.

Ryther's $3999, after the BS and "handling charges" was $4300.
BH is $4200, with no BS shipping of 40-80, throw in the UV filter, and your about the same... but, you have a much better return policy, and no hassles.

Final thing. When I called the next morning, about 12 hours after I ordered, Ryther complained that they would have to pay the 3% fee to Amex if they voided the transaction. I'm thinking, no way, that's total B.S. Also, they guy was really rude, pushy, and downright obnoxious. I got Amex on the phone, and had the Amex guy TELL him that no, there is no transaction fee for a voided transaction, finally the guy relented. He literally wanted me to pay him the transaction fee for canceling the order. Turns out it had not even been charged, it was total B.S.

The moral to this story, some times the cheapest deal isn't a good deal after all..

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Total scam! If you have not order it yet give Josh at VSA a call. Most of the time he beats B & H pretty good and they are Authorized Dealer. They did a huge buy-in on the AC130 and AC160s so I am not sure of the price now. But give them a call at 1800-888-2140 to check, ask for Josh. There return policy is not the best but for the price they are hard to beat.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Damn, that's what I was afraid of. If gambling is allowed on this site, I'll place bets Hurd will pop in any moment and say you should always buy from a DVinfo sponsor cause they're super legit, and he'll probably tell you never to mention a non-sponsor by name lest you be severely spanked.

What you've described is a very common practice, from what I understand. . .advertise at some way low price, then drive it up to or past retail. "oh, you wanted the viewfinder and lens? Sigh. Well, okay, but that's another $1500."

When I got my XL1s a long time ago I got it from a place that did something similar but not as grevious. . .pushy sales guy got me into a 4 year mack warranty for another $400 driving the price up from the advertised $3400 or so up to $3800-ish. still not bad, but oh well.

And I was thinking I might actually be able to get this cam. I'll probably buy my friend's used HPX170. Or nothing. Ever.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

As a general rule most cameras sold thru legitmate stores, be it brick or click, are pretty much the same price. If you see the camera at B&H for XX dollars then for the most part everyone else will be at that price as well. Some might be $100 less or $100 more but all will be close. You must be wary of the stores that offer the same camera for a ridiculously low price because they will do everything they can to "get you".
One reason why the sponsors here at DVi are sponsors. They've been around a long time, they've been veted out and if you look, you find they are all within a small towel as far as pricing.
Don't fall for the low price gimmick. It'll always come back to bite you.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Hi Ed

For some weird and wonderful reason I was locked out of the forum for 2 weeks!! No idea why but it just wouldn't load on my browser...then all was well again!!

I have two AC-130's and they are really neat cameras!!

A couple of issues :

Firstly it's a brute to handhold and really uncomfortable if you do long handheld shots so I have a simple DIY rail under mine with a little offset shoulder pad at the end and use the LCD as a viewfinder. Outdoors the LCD was useless and with the cam on my shoulder the EVF was just too far back so I have dropped a little loupe onto the LCD and it works really great and i have a HUGE EVF too (My last cams were HMC80's so I got used to the big EVF's) It's a worthwhile mod to do if you have to handhold!!

Secondly the default scene file if worse than useless!! It looks good on the LCD cos the LCD colour is boosted way up but the end result will be a wishy washy image with no wow factor at all. What I have done is reduced my LCD colour setting to "-3" and made up a few scene files using the F3 setting and then two more with kind thanks from Jeffery!!! Makes a HUGE difference!!!

What I really do like is in a run 'n gun situation you can zap the cams into full auto and the focus and iris still work !! I let the auto do it's job and then use the rings to tweak!!

Chris

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

I was wondering what happened to you. Things were very quite without you. ;-)

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

So you're saying the cam is not the awesomest thing since sliced bread? I hoped it would be.

What did OP mean about vignetting from "5.6 to wide open"?

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Hi Don

No idea why but I have a feeling that it was something to do with the IP address I was on from my provider that the DVInfo server didn't like...the main website came up but clicking on the forum did absolutely nothing..no errors no warnings...BUT my wife's puter also couldn't access the forum and we are on the same network..so that was the issue I guess.

Hi Josh

Yes, I think they are great cameras..I bought two didn't I???? They do have a few issues...personally I haven't experienced any vignetting at all ...but I seldom need to shoot at 22X zoom ...more often than not I go maybe 3X or 4X maximum!!! I DO like the very wide lens...it;s way better than my old cameras!! So far, great results and nothing that cannot be worked around or solved. I'm just adding my personal thoughts about the cameras be they good or bad and some may not affect others and some may!!

Chris

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

I think that was me that posted the comment about the vignetting (note it's only at full zoom in). Here's the YouTube video I made as documentation:

Panasonic AC130 Vignetting Part II - YouTube

...Jerry

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Ah, Ok. Something about the syntax confused me. So you mean when zoomed in, AND are at 5.6 to wide open, you get vignetting?

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Exactly! Sorry if I was confusing.

...Jerry

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Maybe I was just being dumb when I read that.

Anyway. . .does it have the PANASONIC LOOK?

I haven't worked that much with Panas, but I worked a long time ago on a project with the DVX100 series and remember how even mundane stuff in available light looked really, sigh, filmic and beautiful, while stuff that was actually lit looked amazing. Something intangible to do with the way the cam handled colors and contrast, and the 24p implementation.

I've played with HVX200s a few times but never really got to examine the footage on a TV or monitor to see how it came out, so I don't know if that DVX sensibility has carried over to their other/newer cams.

I understand out of the box maybe not so hot (just like the XL2 in that respect), but once you apply scene files or whatever, how 'bout then. Does it still have "the look"?

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Hi Josh

With a simple scene file change yes, the 130 and 160 have a lot of WOW factor!! I have been right through the Panny range as far back as the VHS M10 camera (that was a LONG time ago) and these new cams are awesome BUT don't ever try one out using scene file F1 (the default) the image really sucks and has absolutely nothing!!

If you can get your hands on either camera then spin the dial over to F3 and then try some sample footage and you won't be disappointed at all. I have no idea why they never gave the first scene file any parameters as if you tried out the camera at a retail outlet it would more than likely be on F1...my F1 now does not exist!!!

I have a friend over East who has a DVX 102 and an HMC150 and he is VERY impressed with the 130 and 160 as far as image is concerned so that would confirm your question regarding the carry forward of sensibility. When mine arrived he told me I would be blown away but he negleted to tell me about not using the first scene file as the camera he tried had already been set up!! After switching scene files, yes, I must admit I was blown away!!

Chris

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Thanks for the info!

Now I see, as I research, there are quite a few dealers selling the 160 for closer to $4k, not just that naughty one the OP mentioned. Quite a dilemma between this and a used HPX170.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Hi Josh

Doesn't the HPX have the same chipset as the 160 now??? I thought it did but forgive me if I'm wrong!! Actually I AM wrong I was thinking of the 250 which does use the same chipset!! The 170 has CCD's!!

The new chips are supposed to be better than the CCD's and then you are also faced with having to use P2 cards which have come down a bit but are still pricey!!! Is your NLE also happy with DVCPRO format too???

I would also make sure the used 170 has features you won't miss!! Something that absolutely delights me on the 130/160 is the Area Focus/Iris which almost works the same as a still camera spot focus and spot exposure...very useful feature for me and I can expose quickly in auto (and focus) only in the target area and STILL be able to tweak both the iris and focus manually.. I love the fact that I can let the camera get me in the ball park with both focus and exposure (often it's pretty much perfect) and I can still manually adjust on the rings if I have too!! At weddings where a million things are happening at once it's a lifesaver!

Chris

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

While all of what you're saying is true, they're both supposed to be excellent cameras. The HPX will have the more robust codec, but alas, shorter zoom range, more expensive media with far lower capacity per card, may be a little soft compared to newer cams (from what I hear), etc.

BUT

Used ones are also going for sometimes nearly half the price of a new 160, and therein lies the issue. I'm stuck in a strange place where I definitely don't NEED an HD camera, but I am certain at this point it's occasionally costing me jobs (I do other work, not just shooting) not to own. I understand one should be able to pay off a cam fairly quickly if one is buying for business, and I accept that. I also accept that it may simply not happen for me that way, and that makes me want to spend less (used cam), but not so little that I get something people won't hire me with (like the Canon XF100 or similar), since my shooting clients tend to be production companies with fairly specific camera requirements, and not "independent clients" who wouldn't know HDV from HEB.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Ok, looks like $4200 is officially the new "norm" for this camera.

"Why not get the 130, Bass?"

'Cause, those features it lacks are ones I would be very worried about missing.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

I made the leap and ordered the 160 from BH. I agonized over the 130/160 question for a while, and ultimately just decided to go for it since I really wanted the over/under cranking, and the uncompressed audio was going to be a nice bonus. At one point I'd like to get a converter for HD-SDI to firewire (which I hear is possible), and use my MacbookPro as a capture device.

One other thought was the possibility that a firmware upgrade would give the 160 1080p60. The note I saw indicated that the upgrade would be for the 160 only, although its possible any such upgrade would also cover the 130.

It's probably "more camera than I need", but I"ll never have to say "I didn't get enough camera"..

Since my old camera is not HD, I bought a 'B' camera too, a Panasonic TM900...

The worst part about all this.. is that I won't ever be able to blame the equipment for lousy video.. so it's time to put up or shut up!

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Hi Ed

Interresting reading. I'm also thinking of the combo AG-AC160/TM900.

Why did you chose the TM900 instead of for example the new X900 or the Canon HF G10 or Canon XA10?
Like to hear your oppinion as I have tha chance to buy a TM900 now before they are sold out.

Regards,

/Bo

Re: Pulling the trigger on an AG-AC160
 

Cost was a significant factor. I basically overspent my original budget on the AC160, and wanted to keep the 2nd camera << $1K.

I had also read an article somewhere that compared a Panny and a Sony. The colors were slightly different, with the Panny tending toward blue, and Sony toward green (IIRC). The author of that video said you don't want to mix Sony/Panny for that reason. There is no indication that the same would apply to Panny/Canon, but I decided it's 'safer' to stick with the same brand. There are might be reasons why you should mix/match, but I just decided to stick with Panny.

The TM900 also looks to have a similar capture/compression system (although I did not do a lot of research in this area), which I hope makes them more compatible for post.

Cheers,

Ed