The death of Mini DV - Panas ZERO dropout and storage solution

Peter Jefferson · September 19th, 2003, 07:57 AM

well, the world as a whole isnt THAT bad in itself.. LOL

I was actually going to mention the fact it might be a cultural thing but i didnt wanna rub anyone the wrong way...

but i think the attitude your describing is accurate, and i also agree 10000 percent about the still photographers...

we're straying of the topic...

ok so here goes... soes anyone know, apart from the standard DV deck backup kind of configuration, whether or not something mobile like this (either SD, HDD or otherwise) is possible at this point in time??

I saw the JVC HDD a while ago about 5 months ago from memory, does anyone know of something like this for Pana gear??
Maybe something in the works?
or are we stuck with DVTape backup systems?
hmm....

Nathan Gifford · September 19th, 2003, 08:11 AM

SD can work, but I am pretty sure they are not the cheap and slow ones you can typically buy. There are high speed varieties that cost quite a bit more.

A HDD system would have to be light, tight on power, rugged (ask Chris about the trouble with flying laptops), with interchangable disks and batteries.

Technically, I see no reason why someone could not build a system using HDD. The larger question is whether potential manufacturers think there is a market for a portable, prosumer system for what it costs to build one.

SD can accomplish all of that, but the big problem would be the high cost/GB.

Gints Klimanis · September 19th, 2003, 01:30 PM

>With disk prices falling so quickly, miniDV will eventually be only on the consumer end.

Imagine higher video data rates that aren't limited by the miniDV tape data transfer rate. You will probably be able to choose from MPEG2 HD?, DV25, DV50, DV200 (made that up), uncompressed, or whatever. 320 GB disks are now available for a bit less than $1/GB , which is about 3x the cost of miniDV, if you use the entire tape. I only use about half a miniDV for each of my sessions, so I would totally go for something that would skip the serial Firewire "capture" process.

Peter Jefferson · September 20th, 2003, 04:05 AM

"Imagine higher video data rates that aren't limited by the miniDV tape data transfer rate. You will probably be able to choose from MPEG2 HD?, DV25, DV50, DV200 (made that up), uncompressed, or whatever."

Maybe one day Glints, we wil have the option of this kind of format seelction...

How good would that be??!!! I mean can u imagine the time its going to save just literally plug and play and edit and burn straight off.

on top of that, the drop out and wear and tear ratio would decrease dramatically... heres hoping for a cheaper HDD alternative to tape, SD aint bad IMO, but price is a major issue...

U know what id like would be to have a HDD deck like those HDD portable mp3 player recorders... instead, it has a 1394 connection and when connected, replaces the tape mechanism of the cam.. (bit like when recording with a backup deck)

i'm sure it can be done, and with regard to weight, a belt clip or shoulder pack would be a good alternative to camera mounting.

see, the thing is, this technology is already made available... sure there are people eperiencing issues with the new technology, however like most things there are teething problems.

maybe soon enough we'll have this option we all dream about...
maybe Pana will take notice one day and recognise that there is indeed a market for this alternative media...

Christopher Toderman · September 26th, 2003, 06:00 PM

Didn't Hitachi or another company announce development of a multilayer optical storage that is using some kind of a blue laser and that has a capacity in the Tara range? And I think that there is an UV laser drive under development -- I read it somewhere, that would have even greater storage capacity. I don't think that flash memory is the future. Optical drives will be the future.

Gints Klimanis · September 26th, 2003, 07:29 PM

Well, actually, why can't we have this today? My Sony vx2000 has
a smart media card port. So does my Sony Wega TV. However, I'm stuck with cruddy JPEG images.

Just design a camcorder with slots for two flash cards, running in parallel. Or, make a device that sticks in the Firewire port that can house 2-4 cards. To transfer them to the computer, the 400 MBit Firewire or USB 2.0 interface will do it. Hell, I'll pay $200 for a little contraption like this. For a while, I was looking for a 2x miniDV tape reader. This will blow the doors off that.

The parallel cards will yield the flash memory bandwidth necessary to store DV25 or DV50. The tape will continue to work as a backup or whatever. When the cards fill up, oh well, they no longer store material. The rest overflows to tape. I've read announcements of higher bandwidth flash cards with wider data busses.

Jeff Donald · September 28th, 2003, 08:28 PM

It still doesn't make financial sense for most users. Several manufactures just announced 4gb CF cards. They're only $499 USD each. So, for about $2,000 plus $200 for your parallel adapter I can do what $3 or $4 dollar mini DV tape does. I agree that the future will be solid state, but not today or tomorrow.

Peter Jefferson · September 29th, 2003, 08:29 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Toderman : Didn't Hitachi or another company announce development of a multilayer optical storage that is using some kind of a blue laser and that has a capacity in the Tara range? And I think that there is an UV laser drive under development -- I read it somewhere, that would have even greater storage capacity. I don't think that flash memory is the future. Optical drives will be the future. -->>>

yeah mate, its called blue ray.. sony were the first to develop it and apparently its taken peoples attention...

this wont be availabelk for a long while yet, as im sure piracy and other mass media storage issues will need ot be looked at first...

Rob Lohman · October 6th, 2003, 04:23 AM

Well, Sony had a LOT of blue ray stuff on it's stand @ IBC here
in Amsterdam a couple of weeks ago. They seem to be pushing
this quite hard for the professional marketplace. Probably will
take a while to filter down into the consumer/prosumer market
indeed

Gints Klimanis · October 6th, 2003, 04:30 PM

>It still doesn't make financial sense for most users. Several >manufactures just announced 4gb CF cards. They're only $499 >USD each. So, for about $2,000 plus $200 for your parallel >adapter I can do what $3 or $4 dollar mini DV tape does.

Not really. Such an adapter could allow for parallelization of several cards to exceed the tape data transfer rate. This would allow for better DV formats in shorter durataions or "burst mode" photography, a particular application I'm chasing.

>I agree that the future will be solid state, but not today or >tomorrow.

Tomorrow is getting closer. Check out this advertisement for
compact hard disk drives. This is all I could find on this device, for now.

According to the Japanese website PC Watch and also EE Times, GS Magicstore will release a 4.8GB version of its 1" HDD in November. It is a Type II CF format card and will be compatible with digital cameras from Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Sanyo, Olympus and Minolta. Additionally the GS Magicstore product road map indicates a 7 - 8 GB unit late in 2004, 10 GB at the start of 2005 and 16 - 20 GB late in 2005. The company is also developing a 40 GB 1.8-inch drive which it will launch in April.

Gints Klimanis · October 6th, 2003, 04:35 PM

The 40 GB minidrive would make an ideal portable video accessory. Imagine being able to rapidly inspect your shoot while on location. This is where digital video should be. I would MUCH rather use the miniDV tape as a one-shot backup rather than an interactive recording/transfer medium.

Gints Klimanis · October 6th, 2003, 04:54 PM

Pretty soon, the miniDV tape drive will be an optional backup device.

September 19th, 2003, 08:11 AM	#17
Nathan Gifford Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tickfaw, LA Posts: 1,217	SD can work, but I am pretty sure they are not the cheap and slow ones you can typically buy. There are high speed varieties that cost quite a bit more. A HDD system would have to be light, tight on power, rugged (ask Chris about the trouble with flying laptops), with interchangable disks and batteries. Technically, I see no reason why someone could not build a system using HDD. The larger question is whether potential manufacturers think there is a market for a portable, prosumer system for what it costs to build one. SD can accomplish all of that, but the big problem would be the high cost/GB. __________________ Nathan Gifford Southern Cyclist Magazine & Productions For quick answers try our Search! To see me and Rob Lohman click here

September 28th, 2003, 08:28 PM	#22
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	It still doesn't make financial sense for most users. Several manufactures just announced 4gb CF cards. They're only $499 USD each. So, for about $2,000 plus $200 for your parallel adapter I can do what $3 or $4 dollar mini DV tape does. I agree that the future will be solid state, but not today or tomorrow. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 6th, 2003, 04:23 AM	#24
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Well, Sony had a LOT of blue ray stuff on it's stand @ IBC here in Amsterdam a couple of weeks ago. They seem to be pushing this quite hard for the professional marketplace. Probably will take a while to filter down into the consumer/prosumer market indeed __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

September 19th, 2003, 07:57 AM	#16
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	well, the world as a whole isnt THAT bad in itself.. LOL I was actually going to mention the fact it might be a cultural thing but i didnt wanna rub anyone the wrong way... but i think the attitude your describing is accurate, and i also agree 10000 percent about the still photographers... we're straying of the topic... ok so here goes... soes anyone know, apart from the standard DV deck backup kind of configuration, whether or not something mobile like this (either SD, HDD or otherwise) is possible at this point in time?? I saw the JVC HDD a while ago about 5 months ago from memory, does anyone know of something like this for Pana gear?? Maybe something in the works? or are we stuck with DVTape backup systems? hmm....

September 19th, 2003, 01:30 PM	#18
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	>With disk prices falling so quickly, miniDV will eventually be only on the consumer end. Imagine higher video data rates that aren't limited by the miniDV tape data transfer rate. You will probably be able to choose from MPEG2 HD?, DV25, DV50, DV200 (made that up), uncompressed, or whatever. 320 GB disks are now available for a bit less than $1/GB , which is about 3x the cost of miniDV, if you use the entire tape. I only use about half a miniDV for each of my sessions, so I would totally go for something that would skip the serial Firewire "capture" process.

September 20th, 2003, 04:05 AM	#19
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"Imagine higher video data rates that aren't limited by the miniDV tape data transfer rate. You will probably be able to choose from MPEG2 HD?, DV25, DV50, DV200 (made that up), uncompressed, or whatever." Maybe one day Glints, we wil have the option of this kind of format seelction... How good would that be??!!! I mean can u imagine the time its going to save just literally plug and play and edit and burn straight off. on top of that, the drop out and wear and tear ratio would decrease dramatically... heres hoping for a cheaper HDD alternative to tape, SD aint bad IMO, but price is a major issue... U know what id like would be to have a HDD deck like those HDD portable mp3 player recorders... instead, it has a 1394 connection and when connected, replaces the tape mechanism of the cam.. (bit like when recording with a backup deck) i'm sure it can be done, and with regard to weight, a belt clip or shoulder pack would be a good alternative to camera mounting. see, the thing is, this technology is already made available... sure there are people eperiencing issues with the new technology, however like most things there are teething problems. maybe soon enough we'll have this option we all dream about... maybe Pana will take notice one day and recognise that there is indeed a market for this alternative media...

September 26th, 2003, 06:00 PM	#20
Christopher Toderman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New York Posts: 60	Didn't Hitachi or another company announce development of a multilayer optical storage that is using some kind of a blue laser and that has a capacity in the Tara range? And I think that there is an UV laser drive under development -- I read it somewhere, that would have even greater storage capacity. I don't think that flash memory is the future. Optical drives will be the future.

September 26th, 2003, 07:29 PM	#21
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Well, actually, why can't we have this today? My Sony vx2000 has a smart media card port. So does my Sony Wega TV. However, I'm stuck with cruddy JPEG images. Just design a camcorder with slots for two flash cards, running in parallel. Or, make a device that sticks in the Firewire port that can house 2-4 cards. To transfer them to the computer, the 400 MBit Firewire or USB 2.0 interface will do it. Hell, I'll pay $200 for a little contraption like this. For a while, I was looking for a 2x miniDV tape reader. This will blow the doors off that. The parallel cards will yield the flash memory bandwidth necessary to store DV25 or DV50. The tape will continue to work as a backup or whatever. When the cards fill up, oh well, they no longer store material. The rest overflows to tape. I've read announcements of higher bandwidth flash cards with wider data busses.

September 29th, 2003, 08:29 AM	#23
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher Toderman : Didn't Hitachi or another company announce development of a multilayer optical storage that is using some kind of a blue laser and that has a capacity in the Tara range? And I think that there is an UV laser drive under development -- I read it somewhere, that would have even greater storage capacity. I don't think that flash memory is the future. Optical drives will be the future. -->>> yeah mate, its called blue ray.. sony were the first to develop it and apparently its taken peoples attention... this wont be availabelk for a long while yet, as im sure piracy and other mass media storage issues will need ot be looked at first...

October 6th, 2003, 04:30 PM	#25
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	>It still doesn't make financial sense for most users. Several >manufactures just announced 4gb CF cards. They're only $499 >USD each. So, for about $2,000 plus $200 for your parallel >adapter I can do what $3 or $4 dollar mini DV tape does. Not really. Such an adapter could allow for parallelization of several cards to exceed the tape data transfer rate. This would allow for better DV formats in shorter durataions or "burst mode" photography, a particular application I'm chasing. >I agree that the future will be solid state, but not today or >tomorrow. Tomorrow is getting closer. Check out this advertisement for compact hard disk drives. This is all I could find on this device, for now. According to the Japanese website PC Watch and also EE Times, GS Magicstore will release a 4.8GB version of its 1" HDD in November. It is a Type II CF format card and will be compatible with digital cameras from Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Sanyo, Olympus and Minolta. Additionally the GS Magicstore product road map indicates a 7 - 8 GB unit late in 2004, 10 GB at the start of 2005 and 16 - 20 GB late in 2005. The company is also developing a 40 GB 1.8-inch drive which it will launch in April.

October 6th, 2003, 04:35 PM	#26
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	The 40 GB minidrive would make an ideal portable video accessory. Imagine being able to rapidly inspect your shoot while on location. This is where digital video should be. I would MUCH rather use the miniDV tape as a one-shot backup rather than an interactive recording/transfer medium.

October 6th, 2003, 04:54 PM	#27
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Pretty soon, the miniDV tape drive will be an optional backup device.