DV852 on the way, and a tape question

Yow Cheong Hoe · February 2nd, 2004, 08:10 PM

The Zeiss and Leica names are endorsed products, not exactly produced by the respective companies.

As for lens quality, it should be equivalent and not really a major factor. Why? Because the CCDs are low res (as compared to the Canon 1Ds 12MP 35mm CCD) and the lens quality is sufficient at this level.

Focus on watching actual shots from the cameras, that's where you seee if you really like a camera or not.

As for camcorderinfo.com, I'll say that I choose to visit that site VERY rarely.

Eugene Ilies · February 2nd, 2004, 09:43 PM

Y C H ,

i am dreaming about finding a benchmark test of lenses used for dv camcorder comparing apple to apples same size CCD with same resolution and topped by carl zeiss or leica (canon should use their advantage of having in house optics R&D)

the reason :

1. it is a good start for newbies like myself to move from stills/film to dv

2.educate most of the consumers to be a little more agressive with sales associates trying to push names like hasselblad and carl zeiss T* lenses to sale their products.

I do think that this community can make a big difference.
Users hands on experience is very important and I bet that there are more sites like camcorderinfo - sites where the regular consumer can get more confused and blinded by less important features/add ons.

Guy Bruner · February 2nd, 2004, 10:33 PM

I think YowCH is right. The resolution of just about any camcorder lens is far above the resolution of the CCD. If camcorder manufacturers were attempting to extract significantly increased prices using the lenses as the reason, you might have a case. However, camcorder prices continue to fall as the features on the camcorders increase. I don't think that the knowledgeable consumer is swayed by Zeiss vs. Leica vs. Canon. They are looking for the features on the camcorder that match up with their preferences. Most of the posts on this and other boards are about the quality of low light, 16:9 resolution, etc. rather than the lens quality. That indicates to me that the lenses provided on the current prosumer camcorders are all pretty good.

Yow Cheong Hoe · February 2nd, 2004, 11:52 PM

Just to add on, the 'flagship' consumer super camera from Sony, the VX2000, doesn't even come with their Carl Zeiss lens :-)

But the VX2000 is well revered as a semi-pro camcorder.

As a matter of fact, I have just checked the new VX2100, also no Zeiss.

Frank Granovski · February 3rd, 2004, 01:04 AM

A Zeiss is nice in the still camera world, probably movie camera world too, but with the low resolution of DV, it's not so much the lens as it is the CCD/s and the combined whole, or overall design of the camcorder, in my opinion---like how much a video quality difference is there between a PV-DV953 and a DCR570? Actually, not that much (in terms of video quality).

Yow Cheong Hoe · February 3rd, 2004, 08:11 PM

Re-read the posts here, plenty of babies in March, eh? My son will be born sometime in the second half of March.

Eugene Ilies · February 3rd, 2004, 08:57 PM

yes, and all of them will have a daddy with a pana ...

we should start a panasonic dv forum with baby footage .

Tommy Haupfear · February 3rd, 2004, 09:06 PM

I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May.

Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room...

Allan Rejoso · February 3rd, 2004, 09:35 PM

....If camcorder manufacturers were attempting to extract significantly increased prices using the lenses as the reason...

The actual trend right now is the manufacturers attempt to extract significant price decreases by using smaller and smaller and smaller lenses. Have you guys seen the latest Sony offerings? They look like toys. 25mm filter thread.

Yow Cheong Hoe · February 4th, 2004, 12:37 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May.

Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room... -->>>

I'll decide for you, take both, the VX2000 on a tripod in the corner, capturing the whole scene in one continuous time line.

The GS100, for details, interesting angles and to give your wife a live view on its large viewfinder!

And pass the 10D to the nurse in green (auto) mode for shooting stills!

Hahahaha, just a joke...

Frank Granovski · February 4th, 2004, 01:05 AM

Sony...25mm filter threads?? What the---!? Really?? Ugh. :-((

Laurence Spiegel · February 4th, 2004, 09:24 AM

"I use the cheap standard Sony tapes on my Panasonic. I find the Panasonic tapes to be more 'dirty', as I need to scrub the playhead much more often when I use Panasonic tapes. Fuji tapes should be OK based on Frank's comments."

I was just about to stock up on Panasonic tapes, since
a. Panny has a range of dv tapes, which give the impression they have various quality grades and specfic tapes for longer shelf life, arhiving, etc.
b. Their MQ is said to produce less wear, and is marketed as a pro product
c. Pann PQ is reasonably priced and is often mentioned here
d. Sony supposedly has a different lube than other brands and isn't compatible. Whether it's better or worse otherwise I have no idea
e. It's had about 20 min use so far with Panasonic tape, though I doubt that's enough to leave any meaningful residue.

Shoud I Stock up on Fuji (one grade available) or choose one of the Panasonic grades?

Just when I thought I was done with the tape question...

Rich Perna · February 4th, 2004, 01:42 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Yow Cheong Hoe : <<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May.

Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room... -->>>

I'll decide for you, take both, the VX2000 on a tripod in the corner, capturing the whole scene in one continuous time line.

The GS100, for details, interesting angles and to give your wife a live view on its large viewfinder!

And pass the 10D to the nurse in green (auto) mode for shooting stills!

Hahahaha, just a joke... -->>>

That's HILARIOUS. I was actually debating bringing my tripod into the delivery room; I'd take "personal" shots beforehand, but when the labor gets serious stick the camcorder on the tripod and edit the whole mess together. The question is, who is going to want to watch my masterpiece??? It's not like my wife is going to want everyone to see her half-naked doing her "contraction exercises". Maybe if I ever have a girl I'll make her watch it when she's a teenager to show her the pain and suffering of what happens after you have sex. Hmmm.... :D

Guy Bruner: Thanks again for the "Sony Movie Studio" recommendation. I wasn't aware that Sony had purchased Sonic Foundry, the software is just like you said, a stripped down Vegas. I actually do already have a copy of Vegas LE, but it doesn't have the format conversion features the Sony branded product does. I'm almost sold on it, I just have to do some research and find out what I'd be missing out if I just went and acquired the full version of Vegas (being 29, I still know some people taking college classes... academic pricing, here I come!). I also want to compare the Sony's MPEG2 output against Canopus' Procoder Express; I'm aware the Canopus product will almost certainly be better, but by how much I'm not sure.

Frank Granovski · February 4th, 2004, 05:41 PM

Laurence, stick with what works for you. If you go with Pana, and this works for you (no problems), than only go with that Pana model tape. I wouldn't even mix Pana tapes. Dirty heads are no fun.

Yow Cheong Hoe · February 5th, 2004, 06:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rich Perna : The question is, who is going to want to watch my masterpiece??? It's not like my wife is going to want everyone to see her half-naked doing her "contraction exercises". Maybe if I ever have a girl I'll make her watch it when she's a teenager to show her the pain and suffering of what happens after you have sex. Hmmm.... :D

Well.. we certainly are drifting really far off-topic here, but...

I did a 10 minutes video of my daugther's birth story, from the point my wife reach the hospital, some waiting, the birth and the one-night stay in the hospital after that. The audience was pretty please with the documentary. Of course you won't be pointing the cam at only the blood and stuff. And editing makes wonders.

To get back onto the topic, tape question: I used Sony tapes for the delivery shoot (hahah, what a lame excuse of getting back into the topic)

February 2nd, 2004, 08:10 PM	#16
Yow Cheong Hoe Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Singapore, Passport: Malaysia Posts: 407	The Zeiss and Leica names are endorsed products, not exactly produced by the respective companies. As for lens quality, it should be equivalent and not really a major factor. Why? Because the CCDs are low res (as compared to the Canon 1Ds 12MP 35mm CCD) and the lens quality is sufficient at this level. Focus on watching actual shots from the cameras, that's where you seee if you really like a camera or not. As for camcorderinfo.com, I'll say that I choose to visit that site VERY rarely. __________________ Cam: Panasonic MX350EN, SOLD my MX8EN Mac: G3 400MHz PowerBook, 256 MB, OS 9 PC: Pentium 4 2800MHz, 512 MB, WindowsXP SW: iMovie, Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premiere, Ulead Video Studio, various little utilities

February 4th, 2004, 09:24 AM	#27
Laurence Spiegel Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Brookline MA Posts: 57	tape again... "I use the cheap standard Sony tapes on my Panasonic. I find the Panasonic tapes to be more 'dirty', as I need to scrub the playhead much more often when I use Panasonic tapes. Fuji tapes should be OK based on Frank's comments." I was just about to stock up on Panasonic tapes, since a. Panny has a range of dv tapes, which give the impression they have various quality grades and specfic tapes for longer shelf life, arhiving, etc. b. Their MQ is said to produce less wear, and is marketed as a pro product c. Pann PQ is reasonably priced and is often mentioned here d. Sony supposedly has a different lube than other brands and isn't compatible. Whether it's better or worse otherwise I have no idea e. It's had about 20 min use so far with Panasonic tape, though I doubt that's enough to leave any meaningful residue. Shoud I Stock up on Fuji (one grade available) or choose one of the Panasonic grades? Just when I thought I was done with the tape question...

February 2nd, 2004, 09:43 PM	#17
Eugene Ilies New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: toronto ON Canada Posts: 6	Y C H , i am dreaming about finding a benchmark test of lenses used for dv camcorder comparing apple to apples same size CCD with same resolution and topped by carl zeiss or leica (canon should use their advantage of having in house optics R&D) the reason : 1. it is a good start for newbies like myself to move from stills/film to dv 2.educate most of the consumers to be a little more agressive with sales associates trying to push names like hasselblad and carl zeiss T* lenses to sale their products. I do think that this community can make a big difference. Users hands on experience is very important and I bet that there are more sites like camcorderinfo - sites where the regular consumer can get more confused and blinded by less important features/add ons.

February 2nd, 2004, 10:33 PM	#18
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	I think YowCH is right. The resolution of just about any camcorder lens is far above the resolution of the CCD. If camcorder manufacturers were attempting to extract significantly increased prices using the lenses as the reason, you might have a case. However, camcorder prices continue to fall as the features on the camcorders increase. I don't think that the knowledgeable consumer is swayed by Zeiss vs. Leica vs. Canon. They are looking for the features on the camcorder that match up with their preferences. Most of the posts on this and other boards are about the quality of low light, 16:9 resolution, etc. rather than the lens quality. That indicates to me that the lenses provided on the current prosumer camcorders are all pretty good.

February 2nd, 2004, 11:52 PM	#19
Yow Cheong Hoe Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Singapore, Passport: Malaysia Posts: 407	Just to add on, the 'flagship' consumer super camera from Sony, the VX2000, doesn't even come with their Carl Zeiss lens :-) But the VX2000 is well revered as a semi-pro camcorder. As a matter of fact, I have just checked the new VX2100, also no Zeiss.

February 3rd, 2004, 01:04 AM	#20
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	A Zeiss is nice in the still camera world, probably movie camera world too, but with the low resolution of DV, it's not so much the lens as it is the CCD/s and the combined whole, or overall design of the camcorder, in my opinion---like how much a video quality difference is there between a PV-DV953 and a DCR570? Actually, not that much (in terms of video quality).

February 3rd, 2004, 08:11 PM	#21
Yow Cheong Hoe Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Singapore, Passport: Malaysia Posts: 407	Re-read the posts here, plenty of babies in March, eh? My son will be born sometime in the second half of March.

February 3rd, 2004, 08:57 PM	#22
Eugene Ilies New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: toronto ON Canada Posts: 6	yes, and all of them will have a daddy with a pana ... we should start a panasonic dv forum with baby footage .

February 3rd, 2004, 09:06 PM	#23
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May. Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room...

February 3rd, 2004, 09:35 PM	#24
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	....If camcorder manufacturers were attempting to extract significantly increased prices using the lenses as the reason... The actual trend right now is the manufacturers attempt to extract significant price decreases by using smaller and smaller and smaller lenses. Have you guys seen the latest Sony offerings? They look like toys. 25mm filter thread.

February 4th, 2004, 12:37 AM	#25
Yow Cheong Hoe Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Singapore, Passport: Malaysia Posts: 407	<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May. Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room... -->>> I'll decide for you, take both, the VX2000 on a tripod in the corner, capturing the whole scene in one continuous time line. The GS100, for details, interesting angles and to give your wife a live view on its large viewfinder! And pass the 10D to the nurse in green (auto) mode for shooting stills! Hahahaha, just a joke...

February 4th, 2004, 01:05 AM	#26
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Sony...25mm filter threads?? What the---!? Really?? Ugh. :-((

February 4th, 2004, 01:42 PM	#28
Rich Perna New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8	<<<-- Originally posted by Yow Cheong Hoe : <<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May. Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room... -->>> I'll decide for you, take both, the VX2000 on a tripod in the corner, capturing the whole scene in one continuous time line. The GS100, for details, interesting angles and to give your wife a live view on its large viewfinder! And pass the 10D to the nurse in green (auto) mode for shooting stills! Hahahaha, just a joke... -->>> That's HILARIOUS. I was actually debating bringing my tripod into the delivery room; I'd take "personal" shots beforehand, but when the labor gets serious stick the camcorder on the tripod and edit the whole mess together. The question is, who is going to want to watch my masterpiece??? It's not like my wife is going to want everyone to see her half-naked doing her "contraction exercises". Maybe if I ever have a girl I'll make her watch it when she's a teenager to show her the pain and suffering of what happens after you have sex. Hmmm.... :D Guy Bruner: Thanks again for the "Sony Movie Studio" recommendation. I wasn't aware that Sony had purchased Sonic Foundry, the software is just like you said, a stripped down Vegas. I actually do already have a copy of Vegas LE, but it doesn't have the format conversion features the Sony branded product does. I'm almost sold on it, I just have to do some research and find out what I'd be missing out if I just went and acquired the full version of Vegas (being 29, I still know some people taking college classes... academic pricing, here I come!). I also want to compare the Sony's MPEG2 output against Canopus' Procoder Express; I'm aware the Canopus product will almost certainly be better, but by how much I'm not sure.

February 4th, 2004, 05:41 PM	#29
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Laurence, stick with what works for you. If you go with Pana, and this works for you (no problems), than only go with that Pana model tape. I wouldn't even mix Pana tapes. Dirty heads are no fun.

February 5th, 2004, 06:22 PM	#30
Yow Cheong Hoe Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Singapore, Passport: Malaysia Posts: 407	<<<-- Originally posted by Rich Perna : The question is, who is going to want to watch my masterpiece??? It's not like my wife is going to want everyone to see her half-naked doing her "contraction exercises". Maybe if I ever have a girl I'll make her watch it when she's a teenager to show her the pain and suffering of what happens after you have sex. Hmmm.... :D Well.. we certainly are drifting really far off-topic here, but... I did a 10 minutes video of my daugther's birth story, from the point my wife reach the hospital, some waiting, the birth and the one-night stay in the hospital after that. The audience was pretty please with the documentary. Of course you won't be pointing the cam at only the blood and stuff. And editing makes wonders. To get back onto the topic, tape question: I used Sony tapes for the delivery shoot (hahah, what a lame excuse of getting back into the topic)