GS400 vs. PDX10 ?

Allan Rejoso · June 20th, 2004, 09:10 AM

Then you'd better forget about using the wired remote at the same time as one of those high quality mics you want.

I have asked Pany Japan many times about the possibility of using a splitter in order to use an external mic and the wired remote simultaneously. Each time they replied that it is not possible. Of course Pany could simply be keeping it a secret or those people I have spoken with don't really know what they're talking about. Perhaps some members of this board have actually tried that?

BTW, it is claimed to be a plug-in power mic socket.

Patricia Kim · June 20th, 2004, 12:15 PM

I think at one point there was an instruction on the supervideo site about using a splitter. Someone tried it and said it didn't work - proprietary configuration of the Panasonic jack. Perhaps if Mike Cecotka is around, or checks in down the line, he can add a few words. He is using the gs100 to shoot events professionally - though at one time he was so annoyed by the difference between that wonderful lcd and his actual footage that he had the cam up for sale.

Mikhail Transact · June 20th, 2004, 01:28 PM

GS400 vs. PDX10...

For me is important to set exposure parameters directly: Iris, Gain and Shutter speed. As I know it is not possible in PDX10 - only not graduated "Exposure" control.

Secondly - progressive shutter. I believe progressive quality in GS400 will be same as MX500.

And last - the weight and size.

Stills quality is not important for me.

Boyd Ostroff · June 20th, 2004, 02:24 PM

Shutter speed may be set separately on the PDX-10 with the caveat that it must be set first, then you can manually set the iris. Shutter speed is displayed in the viewfinder. Whenever you change the shutter speed the camera will automatically choose a new iris opening for you. This is odd, but I can't think of any examples where I would want to continuously vary the shutter speed as I shoot. And this is the exact same behaviour exhibited by my VX-2000.

The exposure wheel controls a combination of internal ND filters and iris, with the camera making a choice as to what it will change while keeping the iris in the "sweet spot" of the lens. Shooting in low light situations as you turn the exposure wheel further open it begins boosting gain in 3dB increments up to a max of +18dB.

This behavior is pretty much identical to the controls on my VX-2000 again, with two differences:

(1) as you turn the exposure wheel to reduce the f-stop the camera will insert ND filters after a certain point to prevent you from using too small an aperture (this feature is completely undocumented by Sony)

(2) as you point out, there is no f-stop readout in the viewfinder, just sort of a bar graph. It would be nice if Sony chose to display both the f-stop and which ND filter was in use.

It's an odd system, and even stranger that Sony doesn't explain what's happening, but it does result in some very high quality 16:9 images and I don't find it all that hard to deal with personally.

Tommy Haupfear · June 20th, 2004, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Secondly - progressive shutter. I believe progressive quality in GS400 will be same as MX500.

Mikhail, are you talking about progressive photoshot for stills or the frame mode for video?

Mikhail Transact · June 21st, 2004, 04:47 AM

Boyd Ostroff, it's looks like magic :-). However, it's very interesting information, thank you. In fact for me will be enough to see locked exposure parameters during filming. In case PDX10 it's possible only while playback, as I heard.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : Mikhail, are you talking about progressive photoshot for stills or the frame mode for video? -->>>
I'm talking about video, of course.
I'm not shure MX500 has "frame" mode - vertical resolution not falls during progressive filming.
I have compared three cams which can shoot progressively - Sony PC330, Canon MVX3i (in 1/25s speed) and MX500. It seems to me motion looks more natural in MX500 footage.

Zack Win · June 21st, 2004, 08:49 AM

>>>>>Shifting between pause and record doesn't incur any noise with the DV953. Turning the cam on and off does. The 953 also picks up no noise from the transport<<<<<

Correct. But shifting from 'record' to pause with the DV953 causes several seconds of grinding and whining from the transport, just about identical to the noise made when you turn the camera 'off' after recording. I'm not talking about noise picked up by the internal microphone, I'm talking about noise which is audible to other people in the space where you are shooting -- this noise is easily audible from 10-15 feet away in a quiet environment. In a public environment such as a lecture or concert (of quiet music such as folk or chamber music) this is a real problem, as it is if you are interviewing someone and trying to pause the camera during portions of the interview that wander off topic.

I've never experienced such noise with either Sony or Canon cameras, nor is it issue with the AGDVC30 (which makes a slight noise when shifted into pause, but nothing really objectionable). I talked with tech support at Panasonic, and they confirmed that the noise which the camere makes when shifted from record to pause is normal, and typical of the transport used in most (possible all?) of their consumer cameras.

Zack

Kurth Bousman · July 30th, 2004, 01:01 PM

OK - in light of more info, can we look at this again- thanks

Boyd Ostroff · July 30th, 2004, 02:21 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Zack Win : I've never experienced such noise with either Sony or Canon cameras -->>>

I can confirm that the Sony's don't have this problem. I have frequently used my VX-2000 and PDX-10 to shoot from the rear of the audience during our opera performances and never had a problem. The noise you describe on the Panasonic would clearly be a BIG problem for this sort of thing...

Young Lee · July 31st, 2004, 02:10 PM

But the GS100 and 400 have no such problem.

Kurth Bousman · July 31st, 2004, 03:33 PM

I was really referring to the basic theme of the thread , and more as it concerns the wide screen function of each camera.

Tommy Haupfear · July 31st, 2004, 04:00 PM

With matching CCDs and pixel configurations I'm sure that these two cams are going to be very similar in the widescreen department. I owned the PDX10 and the GS100 and there was still and edge in 16:9 given to the PDX10 but now with the GS400 its a level playing ground for widescreen.

If I was deciding between these two I think I would look at price and whether I valued XLRs over a Pro Cinema mode.

Boyd Ostroff · July 31st, 2004, 04:05 PM

Another factor that doesn't get mentioned a lot is that the PDX-10 is part of Sony's "pro" line of camcorders which means it's sold and supported differently from their consumer cameras. Fortunately I have not had to test this, but I've read that tech support and service is much more responsive when it comes to the pro cameras, and that repair times are considerably faster.

Mark Kubat · July 31st, 2004, 05:48 PM

Kaku has posted comparison clips between gs400 and pdx10 under a variety of questions, detailed somewhere in another thread. Go to Kaku Ito's website (check his profile) and look around.

I downloaded the mpeg2's and burned to DVD. The GS400 clearly looks sharper, higher resolution than the pdx10. You can clearly see the difference - Kaku shot an excellent test.

When you take the cursed smearing of the pdx10 into effect and the fact that you don't have the manual control ease of the gs400, the gs400 certainly wins out in my books.

So if you like XLR mics you get an adaptor like beachtek.

All the best!

Allan Rejoso · July 31st, 2004, 06:59 PM

Hi again Kaku. Regarding the default sharpness setting of the cams, the Sony HC1000 is noticeably softer compared to that of GS400 giving the impression of lower resolution. Is the same true for the PDX10? But then sharpness can be easily jacked-up manually to achieve similar level of clarity.

How's the smearing of GS400. It's there too right?

Thanks!

June 20th, 2004, 01:28 PM	#18
Mikhail Transact Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 60	GS400 vs. PDX10... For me is important to set exposure parameters directly: Iris, Gain and Shutter speed. As I know it is not possible in PDX10 - only not graduated "Exposure" control. Secondly - progressive shutter. I believe progressive quality in GS400 will be same as MX500. And last - the weight and size. Stills quality is not important for me. __________________ Mikhail

June 21st, 2004, 04:47 AM	#21
Mikhail Transact Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 60	Boyd Ostroff, it's looks like magic :-). However, it's very interesting information, thank you. In fact for me will be enough to see locked exposure parameters during filming. In case PDX10 it's possible only while playback, as I heard. <<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : Mikhail, are you talking about progressive photoshot for stills or the frame mode for video? -->>> I'm talking about video, of course. I'm not shure MX500 has "frame" mode - vertical resolution not falls during progressive filming. I have compared three cams which can shoot progressively - Sony PC330, Canon MVX3i (in 1/25s speed) and MX500. It seems to me motion looks more natural in MX500 footage. __________________ Mikhail

July 30th, 2004, 01:01 PM	#23
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	question revived ! OK - in light of more info, can we look at this again- thanks

July 31st, 2004, 05:48 PM	#29
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	for pdx10 vs. gs400 comparison, go to kaku's site Kaku has posted comparison clips between gs400 and pdx10 under a variety of questions, detailed somewhere in another thread. Go to Kaku Ito's website (check his profile) and look around. I downloaded the mpeg2's and burned to DVD. The GS400 clearly looks sharper, higher resolution than the pdx10. You can clearly see the difference - Kaku shot an excellent test. When you take the cursed smearing of the pdx10 into effect and the fact that you don't have the manual control ease of the gs400, the gs400 certainly wins out in my books. So if you like XLR mics you get an adaptor like beachtek. All the best!

June 20th, 2004, 09:10 AM	#16
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	Then you'd better forget about using the wired remote at the same time as one of those high quality mics you want. I have asked Pany Japan many times about the possibility of using a splitter in order to use an external mic and the wired remote simultaneously. Each time they replied that it is not possible. Of course Pany could simply be keeping it a secret or those people I have spoken with don't really know what they're talking about. Perhaps some members of this board have actually tried that? BTW, it is claimed to be a plug-in power mic socket.

June 20th, 2004, 12:15 PM	#17
Patricia Kim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 453	I think at one point there was an instruction on the supervideo site about using a splitter. Someone tried it and said it didn't work - proprietary configuration of the Panasonic jack. Perhaps if Mike Cecotka is around, or checks in down the line, he can add a few words. He is using the gs100 to shoot events professionally - though at one time he was so annoyed by the difference between that wonderful lcd and his actual footage that he had the cam up for sale.

June 20th, 2004, 02:24 PM	#19
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Shutter speed may be set separately on the PDX-10 with the caveat that it must be set first, then you can manually set the iris. Shutter speed is displayed in the viewfinder. Whenever you change the shutter speed the camera will automatically choose a new iris opening for you. This is odd, but I can't think of any examples where I would want to continuously vary the shutter speed as I shoot. And this is the exact same behaviour exhibited by my VX-2000. The exposure wheel controls a combination of internal ND filters and iris, with the camera making a choice as to what it will change while keeping the iris in the "sweet spot" of the lens. Shooting in low light situations as you turn the exposure wheel further open it begins boosting gain in 3dB increments up to a max of +18dB. This behavior is pretty much identical to the controls on my VX-2000 again, with two differences: (1) as you turn the exposure wheel to reduce the f-stop the camera will insert ND filters after a certain point to prevent you from using too small an aperture (this feature is completely undocumented by Sony) (2) as you point out, there is no f-stop readout in the viewfinder, just sort of a bar graph. It would be nice if Sony chose to display both the f-stop and which ND filter was in use. It's an odd system, and even stranger that Sony doesn't explain what's happening, but it does result in some very high quality 16:9 images and I don't find it all that hard to deal with personally.

June 21st, 2004, 08:49 AM	#22
Zack Win Tourist Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 4	>>>>>Shifting between pause and record doesn't incur any noise with the DV953. Turning the cam on and off does. The 953 also picks up no noise from the transport<<<<< Correct. But shifting from 'record' to pause with the DV953 causes several seconds of grinding and whining from the transport, just about identical to the noise made when you turn the camera 'off' after recording. I'm not talking about noise picked up by the internal microphone, I'm talking about noise which is audible to other people in the space where you are shooting -- this noise is easily audible from 10-15 feet away in a quiet environment. In a public environment such as a lecture or concert (of quiet music such as folk or chamber music) this is a real problem, as it is if you are interviewing someone and trying to pause the camera during portions of the interview that wander off topic. I've never experienced such noise with either Sony or Canon cameras, nor is it issue with the AGDVC30 (which makes a slight noise when shifted into pause, but nothing really objectionable). I talked with tech support at Panasonic, and they confirmed that the noise which the camere makes when shifted from record to pause is normal, and typical of the transport used in most (possible all?) of their consumer cameras. Zack

July 30th, 2004, 02:21 PM	#24
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	<<<-- Originally posted by Zack Win : I've never experienced such noise with either Sony or Canon cameras -->>> I can confirm that the Sony's don't have this problem. I have frequently used my VX-2000 and PDX-10 to shoot from the rear of the audience during our opera performances and never had a problem. The noise you describe on the Panasonic would clearly be a BIG problem for this sort of thing...

July 31st, 2004, 02:10 PM	#25
Young Lee Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 268	But the GS100 and 400 have no such problem.

July 31st, 2004, 03:33 PM	#26
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	I was really referring to the basic theme of the thread , and more as it concerns the wide screen function of each camera.

July 31st, 2004, 04:00 PM	#27
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	With matching CCDs and pixel configurations I'm sure that these two cams are going to be very similar in the widescreen department. I owned the PDX10 and the GS100 and there was still and edge in 16:9 given to the PDX10 but now with the GS400 its a level playing ground for widescreen. If I was deciding between these two I think I would look at price and whether I valued XLRs over a Pro Cinema mode.

July 31st, 2004, 04:05 PM	#28
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Another factor that doesn't get mentioned a lot is that the PDX-10 is part of Sony's "pro" line of camcorders which means it's sold and supported differently from their consumer cameras. Fortunately I have not had to test this, but I've read that tech support and service is much more responsive when it comes to the pro cameras, and that repair times are considerably faster.

July 31st, 2004, 06:59 PM	#30
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	Hi again Kaku. Regarding the default sharpness setting of the cams, the Sony HC1000 is noticeably softer compared to that of GS400 giving the impression of lower resolution. Is the same true for the PDX10? But then sharpness can be easily jacked-up manually to achieve similar level of clarity. How's the smearing of GS400. It's there too right? Thanks!