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October 1st, 2007, 06:59 PM | #16 |
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Panasonic decided on the PCMCIA because at the time, thats what they had. They made the choice to get out as early as they could with solid state recording and used what was available. Sony decided to wait till the new standard was up, running, and coming into wide spread use. I understand why Panasonic jumped out when they did. Once you've invested in a P2 system your unlikely to switch.
The PCMCIA standard was on the way out the door as Panasonic introduced the cards. It is a now a closed format with no further development. It would retire to the closet with every other dead computer standard if not for the fact the Panasonic built the P2 cards upon it. That is not a bad thing, it is just the way it is. The bus structure won't change. You won't see "PCMCIA 2". In that way the express card options have a lot more headroom. It is the new format and open for development. At some point Panasonic will have to change, you can't ride a dead horse forever. I would not expect that to be anytime soon. Gazing into my crystal ball (lol), I would predict nothing of the sort should happen until after the expresscard slot gives up the ghost to the next format. The one thing you do have is that you are stuck with Panasonic for everything. You won't see Scandisk or someone like that jumping into to build you a P2 reader. There is nothing in it for them dollar wise since no one else uses that buss structure anymore. K |
October 1st, 2007, 08:44 PM | #17 | |
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As long as huge broadcasters as Fox, Skynews and after what i've read BBC will be all tapeless on P2 by 2010 feel safe to commit millions of USD into P2, the p2 system will probaly stay around for a few years. And here in Norway I know NRK(the state run broadcaster) already are using p2 for some dramawork simply because it's way more economic than tape and faster. Altough for some insane reason they've ended up with Xdcam for ENG. Why is a dam good question, its not like their production system built around Omneon with room for 5000hours cant take it and I'm shure their Storagetek archive solution with at least 60000hours of storage space can take it. |
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October 1st, 2007, 11:12 PM | #18 |
Barry Wan Kenobi
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October 2nd, 2007, 04:34 AM | #19 | |
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The BBC have been using a combination of DVCpro and HDCAM for a while. Top Gear recently did a shoot on HDX900's at the North Pole. But by the same token Torchwood is shot with HDCAM (after first starting off as DVCpro). As far as tapeless acquisition goes, the BBC I believe are still keeping an eye on Infinity. They'll be able to get 10-bit full 1920x1080 HD out of that for an inexpensive price. What the BBC really wants is to be ready for 1080 at 50p, and to be honest I wouldn't expect the BBC's formats of choice to be fully HD and finalised until at least 2010. Until then they'll enjoy the free equipment they are being given by the various companies in return for press releases. |
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October 2nd, 2007, 05:52 AM | #20 | |
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Someone also mentioned the insertion cycle rating of P2 cards. Such figures only hold true for connector pairs where all factors of both the plug and socket design are maintained within certain tolerances. Has Panasonic certified either of these adaptors as being within those tolerances? If not then the cycle rating is anyone's guess, probably the same as it'll be for any PCMCIA card. Worse still we've now added another device and connector system into the data path, that can only mean a decrease in system reliability. |
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October 2nd, 2007, 06:16 AM | #21 | |
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bit players who are happy to make a buck anyway they can scrounge it. Those are also just adapters. I would not call them P2 products. Where are those scandisk, etc..., P2 cards and readers? They are not coming because the format is dead and there is no financial reward for them to jump in. Everyone else who now follows with solid state memory at this moment will be using the express card bus. That is the one advantage it has as the prices are going to drop much faster because there will be more product floating around. Panasonic jumped early to carve out their market. It wasn't a bad move but it did leave them out on an island. K |
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October 2nd, 2007, 07:24 AM | #22 | |||||
Barry Wan Kenobi
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Besides, this is all largely unnecessary anyway, because the camera itself already acts as a P2 reader, through USB or firewire. As long as a USB port exists, or a firewire port exists, you've already got a P2 reader that will work as long as your camera lasts. Quote:
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October 2nd, 2007, 07:31 AM | #23 | ||||
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Everyone else is going to use either SD or CompactFlash. Red uses CompactFlash, and Thomson's eternally-delayed Infinity uses CompactFlash. But neither of those are going to be high-quantity systems. AVC-HD camcorders use SD memory, and there's tens of thousands of those cameras sold every week, so that's where you'll see prices plunge. And none of these CF or SD systems will affect SxS pricing (or P2 pricing) by even a penny. Quote:
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October 2nd, 2007, 07:54 AM | #24 |
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It will be here a while
I don't think P2 is going any where.
Barry is right Panasonic has put a huge amount of money into developing and marketing P2. It's technical short coming aren't effecting it's sales in the least. The bigger issue I see is that we may end up with two proprietary tapeless formats from Sony and Panasonic. Ideally all broadcast outlets would accept either format delivered on HDD but I'm not sure we're even close to seeing that. We're really entering into, and for some of us have been, a world made up of codec formats and the storage media they're recorded to is not as important as the codec and workflow that formats provides. |
October 2nd, 2007, 09:42 AM | #25 |
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What makes me crazy is this marketing trench warfare that really only makes things more difficult for working professionals. If Sony had just adopted P2, with a nod to Panasonic for licensing, then the price of cards would have come way down - and this discussion would be irrelevant - and both companies would amortise R&D - and the development of cameras and post production tools would skyrocket without striking fear in the hearts of consumers...
But no, Sony, still pissed off about the 1880s Beta wars, insists on "newer technology"... Technology does not make movies. For many years people shot on the same old film cameras, transferred audio to the same Magnasync machines and edited on the same Moviolas (I still have one in my office for nostolgic reasons) and no one has made better films since those things have been abandoned on the trash heap. |
October 2nd, 2007, 10:09 AM | #26 | |
Obstreperous Rex
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If Sony had just adopted DVCPRO HD, with a nod to Panasonic for licensing... If Panasonic had just adopted HDCAM, with a nod to Sony for licensing... If Sony had just adopted M2, with a nod to Panasonic for licensing... I think you get the idea... This is quickly becoming a Ford / Chevy argument and I'm not sure how much longer it's going to last. I sure don't get the "insists on newer technology" complaint... Ford / Chevy, Canon / Nikon, Sony / Panasonic all insist on newer technology, that's always been the fundamental concept all along. |
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October 2nd, 2007, 11:10 AM | #27 |
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At the end of the day both P2 and SxS are two different implementations of solid state memory, and the underlying message seems to be that acquisition is increasingly likely to be solid state - (So they may benefit each other.) though I'd expect tape to stay around for quite a while yet.
Does either offer a significant advantage over the other? Being established is an advantage for P2, being natively supported on modern PCs is one for SxS. Otherwise we need to see how the pricing settles down. One advantage that SxS may have is that a range of card sizes is promised at costs roughly proportional to size, whilst P2 seem to discontinue smaller sizes as larger ones come out. Currently, I for one find 6 30 minute tapes far more useful than a single 3 hour tape, and I'd expect a similar choice as we go to solid state. SxS may offer this choice, P2 is predicted not to. Codec arguments are a separate subject again. Eventually I'd expect both Panasonic and Sony to follow the Red and Infinity examples and move to wavelet based systems, as the coding technology evolves. |
October 2nd, 2007, 01:57 PM | #28 |
Obstreperous Rex
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I can't think of a better end for this thread than David's post above... thanks all,
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October 9th, 2007, 04:54 AM | #29 |
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Hi,
P2 is here to stay. We chose the CardBus form factor for several reasons. The first is that so we could have a raid ) array inside the card that would net us the speed that we wanted for read and write, 640 mbs. And there was enough room left over for data management. The express card has a faster transfer speed, but note that no where do they identify the actual write speed. The second reason we chose it, and you must realize that the Express card slot was on the palying field when we chose the Cardbus, is that it has a very robust and proven insertion and release mechanism. The other manufacturers that support the reading of the P2 cards are there, there is not another manufacturer that makes a P2 card, and I would say at this point in time, that is probably appropriate. Doesn't mean that it will always be that way. There are over 60,000 P2 devices in the world right now and that is just a very healthy number. Thanks Chris for opening this thread. Thanks, Jan
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Jan Crittenden Livingston Panasonic Solutions Company, Product Manager for 3D and Handheld Cameras |
October 9th, 2007, 09:50 AM | #30 |
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Let me point out in reference to Chris' "Ford v Chevy" comment above that I am basically a Sony user, having shot nothing but Sony cameras for video until a year and a half ago when I bought an XL H1 (because it's a better HDV camera), and now the HPX500...
Besides which, I happen to drive a (1930) Ford with a Chevy engine, which I can do because of "standardization" - 12v electrics, gasoline for fuel, 16" rubber tires... The point I was making is that standardization makes life easier for working professionals, making after-market products viable because they work with a variety of brands... "new technology" isn't always "better technology", and if P2 had been embraced early on as a standard, the workflow issues that are so rampant in this and other forums wouldn't be issues at all - AND we would probably have less expensive, larger capacity cards with more features. I'll admit that in the late 80's we might have had something better if BetaSP hadn't been adopted as a standard - but because it was, we were able to pick and chose camera and post production features from a huge catalog based on something besides format... I like P2, not because I happen to own two P2 cameras, but because the cards themselves seem robust and have been proven in 2 years of use by the people that submit to these forums... As for the other new sollutions - new MAY be better, but maybe not... |
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