Panasonic please respond...
 

... to the gauntlet that has been thrown down by Sony. They've announced three affordable pro level cameras that use solid state memory, one of them with 1/2" chips. As far as I can tell the only thing Panasonic has been doing lately is concentrating on the low level prosumer stuff. Where's the HVX200a, with improved noise levels and other upgrades? Where's your answer to Sony? Please, give me a reason to stick with P2, even if it's just "we've got some great news that we can't tell you about right now." Please? Because right now I'm close to jumping ship.

The rolling shutter and long GOP on the Sony requires an "answer" from Panasonic?

I agree that there are issues with noise, but what do you want other than that?

1/2 chips with CCDs. Panasonic sells that already.

I agree, if you are going to go ahead and "jump ship" based on that alone feel free.

In my mind Panasonic has almost every market covered with a fine product.

You consider the $48,000 (body-only) HPX3000 "low level prosumer stuff"....? And who said we all want 1/2" chips, or fixed-lens cameras? Many of us didn't get into P2 until Panasonic released 2/3" P2 cameras w/ B4 mount lenses... skipped right past the 200. That said, would I buy a PMW-EX1 instead of a HVX200 if I was looking for that type of camera? Quite possibly. The pro video world doesn't end at fixed-lens cams, though....

Thats great for you if you can afford something in that league. I can't.

Two of the new Sony cams have interchangeable lenses, including a handheld one. They also record to both solid state and tape simultaneously, meaning you've got in instant tape backup and archive.

Sony has *supposedly* dealt with the rolling shtter issue. The long GOP is a non-issue for me when recording to solid state media. Just becaue a camera shoots in long GOP doesn't mean you have to edit in that form. You can certainly convert it to something else.

The noise is the (major) issue for me. I have the unfortunate situation of not being able to use supplemental lighting for many shoots.

Not at the $7000 or less prce tag they don't. I'm specifically talking about cams in the league of the HVX200.

That "alone" is a major issue for a lot of people. Excessive image noise is a big deal, to me at least. If a camera isn't producing the kind of image I expect, it's kind of a deal breaker.

Calm down fellas, the Panny response is gonna come soon enough. How does he know this you might ask? I don't. I'm not an insider. I do however have some common sense. Let's look at the facts:
1) the HVX is several years old already and you know a replacement is coming soon.
2) Panasonic never really released as many different types of cameras as Sony did/does. When Sony was releasing the VX2000, PD150, VX2100, PD170, TRV900, TRV950, Z1U, FX1, A1U, FX7, V1U, Panasonic had the DVX100a, DVX100b, and HXV200.
3) Panasonic did very well with the HVX200 no matter what cameras were being released around it. why spend a lot of money to change things, or add things when your product is still selling as well as anything out there?

Just be a little patient unless you must have a new camera today for some reason. If Panny doesn't have HXV successor out by the time you need something, then reluctantly buy the newest Sony that can tide you over till they do. It's not like having to shoot a few jobs on an EX1 will be tantamount to pulling out your mom's old VHS camcorder from the early 80's.

I feel Bill's pain.

I want to buy into a family of cameras so they will all intercut.

If you pick a Sony for a few jobs and also have a Panasonic, they never look the same with mulit-camera work.

I am stuck right now because the Sony EX looks like a good value, but the larger XDCAMs don't really shoot 720p60, which I want.

The HPX-500 looks like a good value, but the HVX-200 seems a bit challenged in the light/noise area plus I just have a problem "upgrading" to a 1/3" chip camera.

In the DV days, the cameras seemed to be more affordable and you could think of buying two or three of the same camera for continuity. I am speaking of 1/2" chip cameras.

With HD pricing, I am forced to buy one large camera and suppliment with the best small camera(s) to be able to afford to upgrade.

So I too am wanting Panasonic to answer the Sony EX to give me a stronger reason to stay with Panasonic for my HD upgrade.

Even when you transcode, you are transcoding Long GOP with all the attendant artifacting. And that takes time.

That is an issue for me. We had two Sony 3-chip cams, and the artifacting and Long GOP were issues.

I am not dishing out the HVX202 just because its noise level is "excessive" in low light. I just remove it - "wipe it out" - if you like. I am also in the same boat as you. Filming inside rainforests, in the mountains under heavy cloud cover, inside monasteries with just the lighting from the ceilings, etc. Run Adobe After Effects with the Neat Video plugin. It does miracles to noisy videos - try it ... the results are simply spectacular. A US$99 software solution versus US$5000 hardware "upgrade".

Can you post some comparison images illustrating what you have done? I never trust images on the manufacturer's web site.

Can this website accept a 5MB video? If not, please provide me an email id where I can upload my video to you - and you see for yourself. Please ensure that email id can accept an attachment of at least 5MB.

Great! My email is excaliburvideo@adelphia.net. I can accept up to 8 or 9 mb at a time. Even posting some still images would be fine.

Okay ... please be patient ... will get it out to you - and you see. Please feedback to this website after you have taken a look at it. Still images don't do justice to the Neat Video plugin. You have to see the video itself.

The first 4 seconds is the original HVX202 (same camera as your HVX200 - except this is the PAL version) clip. The next 4 seconds is what comes out from After Effect with the Neat Video processing. I have lightened the video so that you can see the noise in the background. Compressed by Sorenson Squeeze.

Tingsern,

Does the clip retain sharpness after using neat video?

The HVX-200 is being used for some great work, so I don't want to bash it but when put next to the EX (basically the same price) the 1080p resolution chips and 2 stops more of light gathering give me pause.

I do see Panasonic with some ground to make up.

It looks even sharper after passing it through Neat Video. I am now uploading the video to Bill for his judgment call.

Basically, the noise in the video makes the image looks soft. After removing the noise, the video looks very much cleaner, and on my HD broadcast monitor, it looks even sharper.

Bill,

I have just transmitted the Quicktime MOV file to your email id. It is a 6MB file ... please acknowledge receipt.

Thanks,
TS

Got it! Looks very impressive. I'd like to see something shot at 12db. But this really looks better than DeNoise.

The original video was shot at Medium Gain. 9dB. I can do a test for you tomorrow - at 12dB and pass it through Neat Video.

That would be great -- thank you! And I'd still love to see some still frames at full, uncompressed HD res if you can manage it. Thanks again!

Yes it can -- look for "manage attachments" below the text area input field when posting a reply.

love to see this on Mac ...
 

This is a windows product according to the site. Too bad. Any suggestions on noise reduction for Mac?

They're working on a Mac version that should be out in the summer. You can still use this version in Bootcamp if you have it.

bootcamp ...
 

Had bootcamp crash my windows and mac side of the system when I put in a security system that conflicted with windows. What a nightmare getting everything up and running again. I'm staying away from windows for awhile.

For those hooked on Mac - I can't offer any solution right now. You have to interface with the developers.

I have evaluated several noise reduction programs - and Neat Video is the best (so far).

Bill - did I see "summer"? You mean next year's then? At least 9 months to wait. Oh well.

I did put in a request for them to develop a filter for EDIUS (I am using that NLE) - and they responded very favorably to my request. It is in their wish list already. Meantime, I use the After Effect's version.

Let's hope DVINFO.NET don't crash on me ...

3 Quicktime MOV files + 2 JPEG files here.

All the QT MOV files are in 2 sections - the first is the original clip, the second is what comes out of Neat Video filter in After Effects.

0dB - no gain applied ("L" setting)
6dB - 6dB ("M" setting on my camera)
12dB - 12dB ("H" setting on my camera)

The JPEG files are the stills taken from the 12dB section - the noisiest of the 3 clips. The first JPEG shows the original, the second shows the output from Neat Video.

The video are compressed using Sorenson Squeeze. I have lightened the clips so that the noise can be easily seen.

***
Only managed to upload the JPEG files ... the MOV files are 6MB each. I tried to upload one MOV file - it failed. Chris, please check the server for space first. Thanks.

Bill,

I have sent you one email with an attachment - that contains the 12dB MOV. Please acknowledge receipt. Thanks.

Got it! Wow... that's really incredible! I don't see the blatant softening of the image that I've seen in other programs. Man, I wish they would hurry up and release the Mac version.

You may now excuse me for saying this ... With this program "Neat Video" - I would say that the excessive noise HVX202 produces is now no longer a problem. It is controllable, as you have seen it first hand for yourself.

That's incredible.

I concur with TingSern's findings with Neat Video.
A while back, I've praised Neat Video.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....03&postcount=4

I'd love to hear Jan add his two cents to this discussion...

Hmmm,

Jan (and Panasonic) will now take the easy route :-). Buy HVX202 with 1/3" CCD and we throw in Neat Video for free :-). Engineers can sleep a little longer - no need to come out with HVX202A (with 1/2" CCD or bigger). Or even better, incorporate Neat Video's algorithm into one ASIC - and put that chip inside the new revision of HVX202 - so, no need to run software on PC or MAC. Ha ha ha.

Funny, most of my shoots I use enough light and the "Bpress Gamma" setting and my footage has very little noise.

Does it look like a 2/3" camera? Of course not, but it certainly works.

ANY 1/3" camera will exhibit SOME noise in the darks, its a physical limitation of the chip size.

Jan is a woman!!!

D'oh!!!! Sorry Jan!

Obviously. But if I compare it to the Canon XH-A1 or something similar, the HVX200 is much noisier at comparable gain settings. I agree that BPress Gamma does help.

From Panasonic, I expect a close to EX type machine with AVC Intra as a recording format. Personally this is what I'm waiting for. Intra will be the bees knees once it gets rolling

Do not ever forget that despite the lack of Panasonic cameras being released, those that ARE released, have almost always been groundbreaking. I don't doubt this next offering will have as much of an impact.

Time will tell.