Panasonic AG-HPX 170 - Official Press Release
 

PANASONIC DEBUTS AG-HPX170, A NEW FULLY
SOLID-STATE P2 HD HANDHELD CAMCORDER

** Records in 20 HD and SD Formats, Offers Benefits of a Tapeless Workflow **

LAS VEGAS, NV (April 13, 2008) – Panasonic unveiled here at NAB the AG-HPX170, a fully solid-state P2 HD handheld camcorder. A full production quality tool, the solid-state handheld camcorder enables high definition and standard definition recording, the widest zoom lens in its class, and a HD-SDI interface for connection to baseband production and distribution infrastructure, all in a lightweight 4.2-pound body.

Fully solid-state, the two-slot HPX170 is a 1080p capable camcorder that offers the compelling advantages of P2 technology including: no moving parts unlike tape, hard disk drive, or disc-based systems; instant random access to recorded HD or SD content; a faster IT compatible file-based workflow; and the ability to operate in harsh environments with resistance to temperature extremes, shock and vibration.

Building on the success of the AG-HVX200, the HPX170 is equipped with new advanced 1/3-inch 16:9 3-CCDs and a high-performance digital signal processor with 14-bit A/D conversion and 19-bit processing to deliver broadcast-quality, independent frame recordings. The HPX170 offers a 13X Leica Dicomar zoom lens with a 28mm wide-angle setting (the widest in its class) and a cam-driven manual zoom for smooth, easy and precise operation. For added flexibility, the camera provides auto or manual focus and iris.

The multi-format camera records in 20 HD and SD formats; in a variety of 1080i and 720p formats in DVCPRO HD, in 480i in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO, and in 480i in DV. It’s switchable between 16:9/4:3 aspect ratios. The HPX170 offers a 20-step frame rate selection in 720p mode for variable-speed shooting in the 12fps to 60fps range to acquire fast- or slow-motion in-camera effects. For added creative flexibility, professionals can select from a variety of advanced gamma functions and settings including a CineGammaTM mode.

With its two P2 card slots, users can record up to 64 continuous minutes of the highest quality DVCPRO HD recording using currently available 32GB P2 cards. Record times will double with the release of Panasonic’s 64GB P2 card in the fall. Other user-friendly recording modes include hot swapping for non-stop recording, loop record, pre-record, interval and one-shot recording. A time/date stamp function makes it ideal for use in law enforcement environments.

The HPX170 is equipped with an HD/SD-SDI output standard for live feed productions as well as for editing and monitoring. It also has IEEE 1394 and USB 2.0 interfaces for fast P2 content transfer into NLE systems, and offers a composite output, component output (mini D-terminal) and a time-code setting via IEEE 1394. The camera also features a built-in stereo microphone and two-channel XLR audio input terminals supporting 48V phantom power supply with a selectable mic/line; and manual audio level volume (two-channel). Other convenient operational features include clip preview on the camera’s 3.5” color LCD monitor; instant recording startup, scene files, assignable user buttons, focus assist and a camera remote function.

The AG-HPX170 will be available in fall 2008. It will be covered by Panasonic’s five-year limited P2 HD warranty*.

I wonder if the 1080p recording is through the HD-SDI or also to the P2 media? I guess the latter as they don't mention it further on in the article anymore. I think this is a nice upgrade. A HVX-200 without a tape mechanism but with the ability to record SD to P2 media. Also, it looks light, and Panasonic claims that the CCD's hold up against the CMOS sensors out there (read: EX1). They switched to bigger, higher resolution CCD's as well.

I wonder what the price will be for this one.

Where have you read this? they've mentioned better ccds, in regards to the signal to noise ratio.. but i havent read anything yet about a high res ccd...

http://www.panasonic.com/business/pr...2008/index.asp

On the left part of the page, there are product videos, if you choose the P2HD Jan Crittenden Livingston (Panasonic Product Manager) will talk about the new camcorder and the chips that are used in the HVX-200A and HPX-170.

Enjoy!

Will they tell us the actual resolution this time or will it be another guessing game before revealing more pixel shifting trickery?

It's almost certain to use pixel shifting. Just how much is the question.

Jan says in the video on Panasonic's website that the new chips have over 1,1 million pixels. 1280x720 equals 921,600. So with overscanning/underscanning I think we can safely say that these camera's have 1280x720 CCD chips.

There is a first look here at the HVX-200A (same chips):
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...10#post1250010

- Better low-light
- Cleaner image (less noise)
- Wider field of view

Everything says they have an "effective" resolution of 1.1 million. I would love to be wrong, but that smells to me more like Panasonic double talk for not being a full raster chip. I do believe if it was they would have thrown that right up in the specs for the camera rather than once again not noting the actual res of the chip.

Again I would love to be wrong, but it just looks like the same circle we had when they wouldn't cough up the actual chip res of the 200.

Sadly I waited to see what was gonna come but I am not interested in another 1/3" chip camera.

K

Me too.

They seem to be growing on trees.

The 1/2" chip has been left for dead in the HD world as a "value" chip size.

Unfortunately my choices have been made for me. I've got a project right now where I've been told that I will record at 1080p @ 1920 x 1080. When I pointed out that their in house crews regularly shoot on XDCam 350's and 330's I just got told point blank, "And?".

Looks like I'll be doing a PDW 700 and an EX1 for the B cam. I waited but I don't see anything here thats gonna fit the specs I've been given to work with.

K

From the responses I've seen so far from NAB attendees and the emails I've received I'd say the overwhelming response to Panny offerings this year is lukewarm at best for the handheld market. Clearly the big news is the announcement of the P2 Varicams (finally) but in the sub-$10k handhelds it seems Sony is still stealing some Panny thunder. Disappointing really, considering how many voices loudly and recurringly asked for certain features that thus far have gone ignored.

Kyle: You're certainly not stuck with the XDCAM choices; you could very easily use the HPX3000 or 3700 (New Varicam) along with the HVX200A and get exactly what you need. However, if the client is specifying that both A & B cams have native HD chips then you're right, there isn't any choice - assuming the "B" cam has to be a handheld.

Of course nobody (excepting Barry Green) has seen output from the 200A so this attitude of "native-HD chip only" may change as the 200A proves itself over time, but for today.... it is what it is.

Not worth my upgrade. I would need to go to something more substantial from my HVX. The EX3 is overpriced. WIth a 9900 price tag, however, it would be a contender. At the stated 13k price point it is, for me, out of the question.

Scarlet is a must buy. 3000 USD is peanuts for the performance stated. Of course, we should add 3000 USD for a trully workable Scarlet, but still, its the camera we were all hoping the "next" HVX to be...Lets see if we're going to see, by next NAB, an HPX300 that can address our needs. As of now, I'll keep the HVX. The only available cameras (for the next year) worth my upgrade would be the EX3 and the HPX500. at 13k for the ex and 16k for an HPX with CAC HD lens, however, its way above my budget...

And having invested in P2 means abandoning the workflow would be costly...

I agree with all of the above.

The EX3 is expensive especially when one factors in another lens.

That is close to $20,000 for a half shoulder mount 1/2" CMOS camera.

I know the images are nice, but $20,000 for basically a handheld with the option to change a lens, come on.

So far, I have been quite let down with the NAB announcements.

So much of the same with an "A" or a "B" added to the model number.

The best news for me was the $2,000 rebate on the HPX-500!

This brings that camera more into play for me.

I don't get it
 

I must say, this camera makes no sense to me and with respect to the handheld cams Panny has really disappointed this year.

One of the major complaints about the HVX200 was/is the lackluster LCD and viewfinder compared to other handheld cams; we always knew that the HVX as a version "A" would not get a new LCD because it would require a physically different form-factor for the camera body, because a high-res LCD would have physically different dimensions. So it's no surprise at all that in fact the HVX200A is using the exact LCD as the original. Indeed this same LCD module is being used across the board in all Panny P2 cams.

However, the HPX170 *is* a completely different form factor thus Panny had a great if not GOLDEN opportunity to give people one of their most requested changes for the 200 - a better flip-out LCD and viewfinder! Which by the way would have completely swayed people away from the competition (Sony) but sadly, they missed the mark completely on this one and instead ignored the single-most asked for change on the 200. All the engineering that went into creating a totally new camera and still a dinosaur LCD exists - for shame Panasonic. They could have also updated the lens controls and made the focus ring mechanical/repeatable but it's still virtual-servo controlled, so no change there either.

So exactly what is the the HPX170?

It's an HVX200A minus the tape drive, adds an HD-SDI out, a slightly different lens and re-arranged camera controls in a smaller form factor. Stop the press.

To some the HD-SDI out will be a welcome addition however considering the high cost of actually capturing footage from an HD-SDI source almost nobody who buys the HPX170 would have the budget for direct HD-SDI capture anyway, so to me it's a misplaced and illogical feature-addition. If I've got the budget for an HD-SDI workflow I'm certainly not going to use any 1/3" inch camera, I'm going for the big-guns to fully take advantage of the full-raster output.

Would I buy an HPX170? Absolutely not, the HVX200A would be a better bet; for the market it was intended for the tape-drive is far more useful than an HD-SDI out.

This really creates a conundrum for the guy who, "wants a better camera than what I have now". The new Sonys' the EX1 and EX3 have by far much better camera controls and of course those gorgeous viewing LCD's... BUT, they're still shooting a long-GOP 4:2:0 format (XDCAM) - and those who know me know how much I loathe anything long-GOP. The HPX170 and HVX200A are shooting a far superior codec and now *should* match the Sony EX's for noise - but not sharpness.

So if you want the best codec/color space possible in a handheld camera then either the HPX170 or HVX200A is the *only* choice, you'll just have to live with the poor performing LCD and now inferior lens controls. If you just-gotta-have better LCD's and better lens controls then the Sony's would be the way to go - but ONLY the EX1 (the EX3 is far too pricey for what you get) and you'll have to put up with long-GOP nightmares in post including the all-consuming *conform* at the end.

If you have the HVX200 or any other handheld HD cam and are looking to make a significant move up then the HPX500 is the natural choice; the HPX170 is a non-contender as far as I'm concerned from any perspective.

Just to follow up: Did you know that the PDW700 does *not* have 24p? That could be a deal-killer depending on what you have to shoot.

I too was really disappointed that Panny didn't upgrade the flip-out monitor. But I will be picking up a 170 when they are available to compliment my 2 HPX500's. I need a hand-held and this one really seems like the right choice for us.

-Brad

It is strange to me that Sony is acting like the more consumer friendly company than Panasonic these days.

The lack of great monitoring on these HD cameras is quite rude to the purchaser given how critical focus is with HD.

Quite frankly this makes the cameras less of an effective tool.

This even applies to the HPX-500 with an SD only feed to the viewfinder.

Then add in the price of P2 cards @ $50 per gigabyte (hard drives are $0.20 a gig) and it makes one think twice about your investment in a new camera family.

I have been lurking around for about a year wanting to find a way to move from the DVC-200 class cameras, but I have been disappointed by lack of critical features and price so far.

The NAB show this year has done little to change my opinions.

I agree with you Robert.

Disappointing move from Panasonic. I regarded them higher than this.

I guess IBC (but more likely NAB 2009) will bring something new.

I think that will be a crazy year, as everyone wants to stop the Scarlet.

As a "B" camera the 170 is a good choice and in your case, the 170 would be a near-match for the 500's output since the 170 has much better noise/color characteristics than the original 200 did. Now, here's something that will really tease you:

If you're going to do any commercial production or indie-film work, the upcoming Letus Ultimate will allow you to use 35mm lenses on BOTH the HPX170 and the HPX500! Imagine, for far less than the cost of (1) Pro35 P+S adapter (currently the only 2/3" inch adapter - which would be required for the 500) you could have a true film-like output from both cameras. Now *that's* something to be excited about.

While I completely agree that the lack of an upgraded LCD is a serious oversight on Panasonic's part when it comes to the new HPX170, I think it's a bit of a jump to say that Panasonic isn't listening to their customers.

Every single one of the features on the 170 that have been added from the 200 is something that users have asked for. All in all there are about 15 or so new small additions I have to believe were done because users specifically asked for them as improvements over the 200 design.

Improved light sensitivity
Increased S/N ratio
HD/SD- SDI output
Increaded Frame rate choices
Frame rate changes mapped to user buttons
LCD Flip option
6-pin FireWire port
Last Clip Delete button
PAL/NTSC switchable option
3 types of focus assist (addition of 2 new focus functions)
Focus Assist toggle On/Off as opposed to timed
Focus ring can be toggled to control Iris
No DV Tape Deck, making for a lighter smaller camera.
Additional built in ND filter position
Playback of all clips regardless of format/framerate

So granted, each of those things in and of themselves may not be large, but as a package I think it makes for a much nicer camera overall. Sure, it's not a revolutionary upgrade, but it is a significantly improved and streamlined HVX. And, more to my point, I think it shows that they are listening to the customers and taking the feedback they've gotten on the HVX seriously.

On top of the small tweaks that were done - there are a couple of (what I would call) 'big' additions - namely the HD-SDI output and the addition on an on camera waveform and vectorscope. The waveform specifically is something that I at least have wanted to see included on these smaller cameras for a long time.

So yeah, I would have loved to have seen a new LCD and EVF.
That would have seriously bumped this camera up in value quite a bit.
But - let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
I think the 170 is going to prove to be a great tool for a lot of people.

As far as I know the 170 and the 200a are using the same res chips as the 200 (960 x 540). I don't think there is any reason to believe the chips are any higher res.

Luis, ya beat me to it... :)

I'll add that Barry Green listed a fourth focus-assist option; the horizontal bar but didn't know how useful it would turn out to be. Also, it seems you can use the focus-assist functions simultaneously together. Those along with waveform and vectorscopes = NICE...

Looks to be a pretty promising unit and I'm looking forward to it's release; it will at least hold a few of us off until the Scarlet becomes a reality.

Well Barry lists the 'peaking' of the EVF as a focus assist feature - which I suppose he's right to do. It does assist in focus.

I didn't include it in the list because I was just going off Panasonic's specs, and they list three focus assist functions - the magnification box, the historgram (exactly like the one offered on the HPX500), adn the horizontal bar you mentioned.

That last one I'm a bit suspect of.
Honestly - I would have preferred forgoing ALL the focus assist features in exchange for the 'focus in red' assist of the Panasonic LCD monitor (whose model number escapes me at the moment).

But - the addition of the HPX500 style histogram should be very nice indeed.

BT-LH80W. And I fully agree but, with the money you save over buying the next viable options (EX1/EX3), you could potentially buy one and have the best of all worlds. And actually, that's probably the route I'll end up going as I need a high-quality external monitor anyway.

Has this been confirmed? If so my 202's going up for sale when the 170's come out..

The only thing that's confirmed is that it may be an option.
How's that for marketing speak?
I should be a politician.
:)

It's been said by Panasonic that it's being considered - either as standard or as an upgrade option at an extra cost. So it's possible that it could be included, or discarded at this point. They still have 8 months or so to finalize before release so we probably won't know for certain until a few months from now.

EDITED TO ADD:
I should note that that is the only thing on that list, as far as I know, that is still a bit up in the air.
The others are all confirmed.

Price point?
 

Has anyone heard if the HPX170 will be priced below the HVX200?

Seems like it should, given that there's no tape drive. But then Panasonic has added some things, like HD-SDI, better sensitivity, better S/N.

Two words: Human Interface
 

Here's my point about the LCD/EVF:

Since no video camera has an optical finder that means the ease of focus and indeed the ability to read a scene properly is based solely on what we can see - or not see - in the cameras viewfinder; the better the finder the better we can compose and focus a shot. Right? Although myself and other commercial shooters like Barry, Ed and others have proven that you *can* use just the low-res LCD, if the shot is critical especially for focus then an external monitor is required because you can't always trust that low-res screen to provide a quick reference, that is unless you turn on Focus Assist - which requires moving your eyes away from the finder to activate, but more importantly wouldn't even be required if the screen had more resolution to begin with.

Regardless what technological features any camera has, at the end of the day what endears any camera to it's operator and creates well-rounded usability is the human interface, which is primarily it's viewfinder and lens controls. What good is an HD-SDI out if you can't clearly see what you're shooting to begin with?

The HSC1U, HMC70 are both consumer/pro-sumer grade cameras and they both have far superior LCD's to anything in the P2 lineup. Why would Panny purposely choose to put high-res LCD's on consumer-grade cameras but not professional - which are being used by people who really need critical viewing capabilities? That's what makes no sense and why so many are going to really shy away from either the 170 or even the 200A.

I was told at the show that "the HPX170 will have a similar price to the HVX200 when it first came out." I would have preferred no HD SDI and a lower price.

I think the LCD/viewfinder is the major shortcoming of every camera in the $3,000 to $10,000 camcorder market. When you shoot with a 35mm film camera, you don't believe what you see. With HD, being able to properly focus and expose your image is the most important and you have to get it right. I have a Canon XL-H1 and I find it very hard to use the viewfinder. The resolution is low and once things start moving you also get some smearing. This makes it almost impossible to get subjects in focus. As far as I know, the Sony PMW-EX1 is the only camera with a proper LCD. I wonder how long we have to wait for Panasonic and Canon to come up with one. If you see how good the external Panasonic monitors are I can't believe how they dare to put something so inferior on their high-end camcorders. I would have no problem when they add $500 to the price of the camera and put a decent LCD and viewfinder on their cameras. Definitely a deal breaker for me.

I might as well just buy the external Panasonic monitor for my XL-H1.

Before we purchased the HVX200, we had a Z1U.

The HVX200 LCD/viewfinder is substantially poorer.

I don't get it.

Without proper focus, which is a challenge with HD, you got nothing.

I had to reshoot footage last week. With all the investments, a better LCD seems to be a priority.

All the current configuration does is cheapen Panasonic's image.

I got a chance to play with both cams at NAB I tried putting a card in the prototype to get some footage but the iris control was broken on the cam. The Panasonic Rep said the low light is going to be a 1/2 stop better. Very light weight almost 1/2 of my Z7u, No over or under cranking. I was ready to purchase one of these cams. I own the EX1 and Z7u but after seeing it in person I don't think so. It looks like they took the HVX and shrank it down same low res 4:3 LCD. The low light and the LCD was a breaking point for me.

Brian:

Did I understand your post to say that the 170 doesn't have over or undercranking?

I think he is wrong. As far as I know, and from what I have read, the HPX-170 has the same framerate options as the HVX-200(a).

[QUOTE=Floris van Eck;863448]I think he is wrong. As far as I know, and from what I have read, the HPX-170 has the same framerate options as the HVX-200(a).[/QUOTE


Correct me if I am wrong, I talk to one of the Panasonic Reps at NAB. He said it was not possible with this cam. But if can do the under and over cranking I may re-think my decision on purchasing one.

Actually, I believe you are incorrect.

The 170 is basically the hvx200 without the tape drive. p2 cards were designed to provide VFR and under/over cranking.

[QUOTE=Brian Rhodes;863457]Brian,

If you read the original post on this thread which contains the press release, the HPX170 absolutely *does* VFR in 720 mode, just like the 200/200A.

The HPX170 is in fact the HVX200A minus the tape drive and a few other changes.

Sounds like you were looking at the HMC150 instead of the HPX170. The 150 is very similar but has no variable frame rates and records to AVC-HD. The HPX170 has all the capabilities of the 150 and all the capabilities of the 200A, plus a whole lot more (including 20 different frame rate options).

A few other changes which, at last count, was about 28 that we've identified so far. It's dramatically improved in many ways, including being a pound and a half lighter (1.5 pounds lighter! Way, way better for handheld use, very ergonomic, blows the EX1 and HVX200A away for handheld work.) It closes the gap or even matches the EX1 in low light performance (sensitivity and noise and smear performance). It's got a wider angle lens, waveform monitor, vectorscope, LCD flip for 35mm adapters, locking six-pin firewire port, frame rate +/- buttons, delete last clip button, twice as many variable frame rates, two more focus assist options, a time/date stamp for legal videographers, a five-year warranty, and a lower price tag. And about a dozen other changes I can't remember right now. And that's all we know about so far -- there might be lots more goodies under the hood that we haven't even heard about yet! The unit that they had on display didn't have its menus enabled so we didn't get a chance to see what else it might be capable of; all we can really be sure of is what physical characteristics we could see.

Do we wish it had a better LCD? Of course -- I screamed at so many Panasonic engineers from the Japanese factory that I'm sure there were some bleeding eardrums by the time I got through. Trust me, they very well know that we want a better LCD. But consider that they're putting this same LCD on the HPX500... and the HPX2000... and the HPX3000... and it's unlikely that we're getting a better LCD on the HPX170. But, there's still five or six months between now and when it actually gets released, so we'll see whether they're able to substitute a better panel by the time it comes out.

1080p Capable?
 

Excuse the ignorance, but does this mean that the HPX-170 can shoot 1080p to card?
as opposed to the current HVX-200 not being able to?
thanks, Mick