The New Panasonic HPX-300...
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$10k+ for a 1/3" camera seems dated.
RED's announcements and the new DV-SLRs have changed expectations. |
Too late.
Panasonic needed to do this a year or two ago. Now there are so many options it's hard to sift through all the camera choices anymore. |
CMOS is a huge offset for me, since this would still be impossible to matchmove accurately due to the Rolling Shutter.
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I don’t know about you guys, but a $10,700 camera that records to AVC Intra at 100MBPS seams extremely impressive. I just wish it was as small as Sony’s EX3 and JVC’s HM700 but then again all that horsepower might not have fit.
Here’s a couple of videos: Abel Cine Tech - Video: A First Look at Panasonic's HPX300 |
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HPX300 looks impressive, the only catch is still the use of 1/3" chips, but again...price must be kept down for both lens and chip. http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/c...E_Brochure.pdf |
Cameras usually gets released for much less than the announced price so it’s better to wait until we get prices from places like B&H, etc.
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Interesting that this camera costs the same as the HPX-500.
It will be interesting to see the 1/3" full raster vs. 2/3" pixel shift in terms of image quality. I will always want the larger chips, but they are pricing them like they are equal. But I agree, Do we need another 1/3" chip camera? This camera a year ago would have made much more of a splash. |
Do we know if that $10,700 includes a lens?
There's quite a lot of good things with this camera, and full marks to Panasonic for the 3 2.2MP chips and shouldermount. I'm also pretty amazed to see true pro features such as proxy abilities to SD card, and integrated radio mic support on a camera in this price range, to say nothing of a few other features. Personally, I'd like to roll this and an EX3 into one - keep the 1/2" chips and SxS/SDHC media of the EX3, but form factor and other features of this. Either way, it looks as if 2.2MP chips are here to stay. |
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I'll guess around $9k as street price, and i'm suspecting "bundles" either from pana or dealers with two 32gb P2 cards will be about $10k. |
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Good correction. Sorry.
I did not realize the 17x lens was part of the package. But, I think for this camera to really have 'whooped up' on the Sony it would need 1/2" chips and offer the option of SD card recording like the HMC-150. Now that the M&R solution is in use, the EX-1 for $6,000 is a lot better value than the HPX-300 at $9,000 given they are both CMOS and the memory price comparisons are pretty far apart. |
Does SDHC have the through-put to record AVC-I?
I was all set to sell my original HVX and upgrade to this camera.. but the 1/3" chips have just killed it. Im keeping my hvx. Still, a lovely camera though, its a shame its going to cost a stupid amount of money down here with current exchange rates. I'd rather invest more and go 2/3". |
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I don't know but Sandisk has SDHC cards with advertised 30MBps read & writes.
The HMC-150 can record 24Mbps using class 4 cards so maybe 50Mbps intra might not be that far away? |
I don't know but Sandisk has SDHC cards with advertised 30MBps read & writes.
The HMC-150 can record 24Mbps using class 4 cards so maybe 50Mbps intra might not be that far away? |
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The 1/3" chip may sound small but ultimately you've got to give it up for image quality and with a codec like that is should be extremely good, and the post options should be more flexible than anything else at the price point. |
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And that's with the adaptor, and the EX USB bus. With a direct connection, the cards will certainly manage more. Even if it still wasn't enough, CF cards would easily be OK to record AVC-Intra100, and fairly cheap ones at that (ExtremeIII). The XDR proves you don't need P2 raids to record 100Mbs video, just fairly cheap CF, even if SDHC isn't yet up to it. What I do look forward to is an EXx with the 50Mbs codec, which has the same unqualified approval from the EBU that AVC-Intra100 does. That should definitely be capable of being recorded to SDHC, especially if it's possible to get an adaptor by then which uses the PCIExpress bus. |
When I did a round SDHC testing with a client's EX1 a few months ago, we consistently saw dropped frames at 36fps with four different brands of cards.
There is no contest between AVCIntra and XDCAM EX as far as codecs. AVCIntra is leagues better as any HPX2700/3000/3700 owner can verify. I am predicting street of $8.995.00. I agree, wish that they could have implemented 1/2" CMOS sensors as Sony did, but overall, this camera looks to smoke the EX3. Ergonomics, codec, features. The only advantage I see with the EX3 is the SDHC hack, if your workflow can put up with the limit on frame rates when using it. Or if you like the images the Sony shoots better, of course. When Barry Green said, "this camera combines the sharpness of the EX1/EX3 with the color, look and feel of the other Panasonic P2 cameras", that sounded very exciting to me. Dan |
The only hands-on review I've read of the camera seems to indicate that the skew and jellovision is noticeably worse than the EXx series. AVC-Intra is a nice codec, and the camera seems to have a lot of the right stuff, but unfortunately, it seems Panasonic hasn't quite got the CMOS thing down yet.
And that is a shame. |
Evan,
I guess I am coming from the poit of view that a lot of this stuff is only specs. IMHO, the difference between normal shooting conditions of all of the codecs mentioned are going to be small especially after a run thru color correction. I just did a shoot with an HPX-500 with Flash XDR, HMC-150 and an HVX-200. The end result after post is that they are very close and non video people would never be able to tell the difference. Now one area that is very obvious to me is the DOF of the HPX-500. Its images just look better to me because of the chip size. Couple of other things. It would be convenient to only compare the EX-3 to the HPX-300, but the only difference is the ability to add longer lenses. Under 14x on the lens and the EX-1 & 3 are the same camera, same image. So yes, the EX-1 for $6,000 has a 1/2" chip full resolution image. AVC-Intra is a 10bit codec. Not all NLEs can edit in 10bit. I use Edius which is 8bit. So while I think AVC-Intra is the best codec out there, the 10bit advertising really does not help me as the files will be transcoded to 8bit upon entry to my NLE. I own Panasonic cameras, I am just not smitten with this offering. The real cost of this camera is going to be over $10,000 when you factor in P2 pricing. That is a lot for a 1/3" chip camera with any codec. |
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I was about to get an EX3, then heard about this, and whilst there is a lot to commend about the HPX300, the more I hear the more I think I'll stick with getting an EX3. Lens, for example. The EX3 supplied lens is significantly wider at the wide end than what comes with the HPX300. The EX3 should be just about OK - but I think I'd need a wider lens with the HPX300. I do like the HPX300 ergonomics, radio mic integration and things like the ability to record proxies to SD cards, but really don't think I want to pay a lot more, only to give up 1/2" chips for 1/3" and have to use expensive memory. I don't see any problem with framerates using MxR - just have one 8GB true SxS card for off speed shooting and dub the clips in camera to SDHC. Even if I did a lot of off speed, SxS is still a lot cheaper per minute than P2. |
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Im about to go back to my office and have a play with my EX1 fully zoomed in, i played with the HPX300 yesterday and i can still remember how much skew there was. I'll plug it into my BTLH80 monitor and view it on that as well as the EX1's LCD. We were playing with the camera in AVC-I 100 1080 50i so i'll make sure the camera is set to that. The only issue i can see with my test is the fact the ex1 only has 14x lens compared to the HPX300s 17x. |
Right, so i just went and did a test with my EX1.
Threw it into 1080 50i - the same setting we were playing with the HPX300 in. Turned the OIS off. Cause of course.. the hpx doesnt have it. Zoomed right in on a bunch of vertical bars.. and went wild. Wow, i guess what i just learnt was the fact that shooting progressive masks skew.. because at 1080i on the EX1 there was a hell of a lot of skew going on. Not not as much as i saw with the HPX300, however it was very close.. and the bars i had been shooting were about the same distance away. Now the only thing i can think that would alter this test was the focal length of the lens.. a 14x compared to a 17x.. and that would definitely make a difference in skew exaggeration. Still, need to get the cameras side by side and test it.. |
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I'd rather have this better wide angle capability, and accept the 14x over the 17x, but it does mean that the telephoto reach will be even less than just a 17x/14x comparison would have you believe. |
Check out the b&H price:
Panasonic | 1/3" CMOS P2 HD CAMCORDER | AG-HPX300 | B&H |
Anyone know if the HD-SDI tap is 10-bit?
Also, I just want to confirm, rolling shutter shouldn't be an issue with this camera right? -C |
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Andy |
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Enough of the skew issue already. Unless you are in a press scrum on a dark evening most of your shooting life it isn't an issue. I've shot hundreds of hours of footage and it has never been an issue with my EX3. And that's with fast moving footage such as WRC class rally cars etc. |
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The other possibility I've heard is that for such as breaking news, the proxies can be very quickly linked back, even over a fairly slow link, and put on air quickly, the full res material following as and when. Like a lot of features on a lot of cameras, they are something that some users with some requirements will see as very useful, others will never use them. |
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The proxies could be quickly loaded on a laptop in the field, which can be used to edit an EDL. The key point is that you don't have to waste any time encoding the proxies before you start editing. Sure, they'll copy to the hard drive/raid a bit quicker than the full-sized files, but it's the "edit now" feature that shines.
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For a long while I bemoaned the lack of proxy files with P2 because I was used to working with them with XDCAM disc based systems. They had a lot of uses for speeding up workflow and for providing downloadable content for clients via FTP. A lot of the P2 guys told me how they wouldn't have much use for them. Now that I am using the EX I have less use for the proxies. For clip reference over FTP they would still be useful, but for the most part I am not missing them too much. |
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Steve |
Can you post up some examples Steve?
Quite often i find that when you are looking for the effect it can be there, but most times it isn't noticeable. Video is often a compromise and stuff that we notice simply isn't by most normal people watching. I take it you are down by the Severn a lot? We'll have to hook up and compare notes, I've been down there a lot myself recently. I am surprised you noticed it on a tilt rather than a pan. I'm also slightly confused by the word 'jittering' which doesn't seem to fit the mold of a CMOS rolling shutter issue. Which model of monitor is this being viewed on? And how is it being output? |
My local test patch is the Conwy Estuary actually, up north.
Viewed it on HDTV via component out and also on laptop in FCP. One of the companies I do work for has got an EX3 and I said I might be able to use it instead of the big cameras when I need to go a long long way and need a lighter kit. Mostly I think the EX3 is amazing (even the VF is useable), but I just can't get over this issue. It's hard to describe, all I know is I see it straight away when I'm used to viewing footage from Varicam et al and never noticed it at all. Steve |
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I'd need to see it to know what you are on about. I just need a better description of the physicality of the picture when you say 'jittery'? |
It's a 1080P plasma via component.
Can't find the time or inclination to post footage, but don't think it'd help anyway as it'd be so compressed you wouldn't be able to tell anyway. Hope to get into a post house shortly to check all is well with PDW700 footage (including 720P for slomo which at first glance doesn't look that hot I'm afraid), so may get some answers then. Steve |
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Much better to do it in camera than on import, since it can just be handed straight to the producer etc after shooting - that may be well before any import or other post process. |
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