SD to P2 adapter?
People are using SD cards inside adapters to get around buying expensive SxS cards from Sony. Is there a similar workaround to the expensive P2 cards?
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Nope. The SxS card is a lot more off the shelf than P2 which is a custom raid controller fusing SD cards into a new form of media. Not to say it's impossible but I've yet to see anything like this for P2.
Noah |
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I've recently been trying SDHC in an EX for the first time for real work this week and found it rock solid stable for normal shooting. I've also been able to copy clips card-card within the camera, and found they transfer across at about 2x real speed, so I'm guessing the limit for card plus adaptor is about 70Mbs. So fine for XDCAM, nowhere near enough for DVCProHD - even if an adaptor did exist. But being able to have all the solid state advantages, AND be able to hand the cards straight across was something my client was extremely impressed by. It's finally made solid state viable for us. |
We should also take into consideration that P2 was introduced in 2004 when regular flash memory cards was now where near the sustained bandwidth needed for video and HD. Today the flash technology are getting there, so we might see flash memory in SD/CF form that could replace P2, but not today. Also P2 offers a very good bandwidth with their new pci express reader, though costly you can edit more efficiently direct from the cards.
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Secure Digital card - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -Noah |
Pretec unveils 666x Compact Flash Cards
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Yep. Pretec is not exactly a household brand name but it shows you what the format is capable of.
Noah |
It'd be great if panasonic put out an sd to p2 card adapter at NAB, even if it was restricted to certain framerates. If it could do 1080p24, 60i, 30p, 720p24,30 I'd be more than happy.
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Evan:
I have been working with Panasonic on some shoots with the new HPX300. As far as P2 going away or being merged with an SD card adapter, not going to happen. Don't even hold your breath. Dan |
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It's either wait for a Chinese P2 knockoff or wait for a portable HDMI recorder. The HDMI is also 4:2:2 color.
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Regarding pana and p2, you might want to take a look a this...
http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/e...IDEOBLOG_1.php |
I remember the launch of P2, and how a big selling point was being able to put cards straight into a laptop - no decks, not even adaptors. Come ExpressCard and the dying away of PCMCIA the prophecies were for "P2 MkII" - same principle, but using the ExpressCard interface. It made sense.
And it came about - but from Sony & Sandisk, as SxS. The above link is interesting in that Panasonic even need to state that in spite of all the queries they are getting they intend to stick with P2. Reading between the lines, it's an effective admission that P2 is increasingly being seen as a negative, not a positive, and when (??) Sony launch a full size SxS camera, that's going to become even more so. Especially since SD cards can be used with SxS cameras for normal speed filming, but can't be used in lieu of P2. Also telling is how little now gets said about the 200 and 171 - the attention from Panasonic fans seems to have heavily diverted to the 151. In other words, again away from P2. If Panasonic do stick with Cardbus instead of ExpressCard, I can't help feeling that it's a bad move for them in the long run. |
I was thinking, when you can potentially buy an entire device like a HDMI recorder for the cost of just a single P2 card, something is wrong.
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To repeat myself....People seem to forget a few things, P2 was introduced back in 2004 when there where no option but pcmcia standard and with pro gear you don't tell customers to get stuffed with their investments in P2. And until "today", Sd or Cf cards did not offer good enough performance for use with pro video.
Imagine a tv station investing millions in P2 in the start, it would be a VERY bad move by Panasonic to make their investment almost worthless overnight just to follow the consumer speed of new technologies. That also sends the signal to other large customers, we might change the standard after some time. Large investments need to be future proof and often that means continuing to maintain say an old interface as the pcmcia for the next 10 years. Also underlined by the pana rep in the video and a friend of mine in the business here in Norway, P2 are made for pro users. And the attention today are not turned at the 151 but the 300. 151 lack a few vital functions to even compete with the hpx170/hvx200. A step up to the hpx500 and above there seem to be a lot of satisfied customers, both in news, drama and freelancers. And as many broadcasters are investing or planning in the near future in tapeless workflow the interest for P2 probably would grow even more as sony still operate around the "tape mentality" with xdcam. Quote:
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2. If any recorder loses power during recording, recording stops. 3. Over/undercrank is in the camera, not the recording device. |
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According to your sig, you already own Panasonic's solution to those shooters. The HMC150/151 is the perfect solution for event-based long form shooters. As far as higher end pros, I tested the SD card hack on the EX1 for a client who shoots for all of the film studios. When I showed them that it works but dropped frames at anything 36fps and higher, they said, "no thanks, we'll stick with SxS cards". I can't imagine P2 users or even high end SxS shooters risking jobs worth hundreds of thousands of dollars of business to shoot on relatively unreliable, cheap, flimsy (in comparison to P2) SDHC cards. Low cost media is not most important thing for most pro shooters, reliability/dependability is. I don't see Panasonic drastically lowering P2 prices anytime soon. Dan |
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The only cards that in theory could match P2 are the newest CF cards, but it's hard for panasonic to guarantee the quality of production outside their world. That said, i don't think Panasonic could charge whatever they want, and for the smaller cams it's a tad expensive for starter. But in every viable business you should charge enough to pay for the gear in x amount of time, or just rent if you some times need to shoot more than say 2 P2 cards can hold. Thats my plan for P2, have 2-3cards, renting if more are needed. Quote:
2. What happens to the last clip? Corrupted and unusable might mean do another run in the chopper or miss a valuble shot. Of course chopper shooting is a bit maximizing the consequences, but some times you end up with pictures that will cost a lot to re-shoot. 3. When putting the hpx170 to overcrank mode, are the pictures from the sdi slowmotion?(maybe i was a bit quick, but thats what i though about.) |
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It just sounds like you're grasping at straws at this point. If Panasonic turned around and said they were going to lower the price of all currently shipping P2 cards by $400 would you now complain that they are too cheap? Would you send them an extra $400 out of good will? Would they no longer be pro? You haven't made a good argument for anything other than stating the belief that "Pro" products are somehow less prone to problems than "consumer" products, which is largely a falsity when you consider the complex electronics in any given device. Is a P2 card more durable than an SD card? Yes. Is a P2 card perfect? No. Is either of those facts the argument or the point that the various posters (and many others over time on these boards) have been trying to make? No. Quote:
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As already pointed out by others, the media cost for many won't be the issue when thousands of dollars are on the line. I just raised the price as i'm moving into buying P2 equipment and usually there are no complaints, except for greedy broadcasters that don't want to pay in the first place... Quote:
No pro don't justify charging whatever they want, but pro in my world mean that the manufacturer should go the extra length to ensure that the quality will hold up to the abuse of pro use. Cf cards are cheap and hold up, can't really see where I stated that pro can't be cheap. What you also pay for is the fact that P2 cards, except the first ones, bought back in the start can still be used with the both the cheap hpx170 or the hpx3700 in avc-i. There are also according to Panasonic headroom for implementing higher bit rates. So P2 might be expensive, but at least in the pro world.....it's possible to protect the investment, but that don't mean it defend the price the the largest P2 cards have. But the best argument is that no sd or cf card available today, i know that cf cards that are fast enough are around the corner, can record the higher framerates you can do with Pana/Sony. Sd adapter in SxS drops above 35ish fps and dvcprohd with higher bitrates i can't imagine would be better, then i also imagine it would have a hard time coping with 720p50 which are what many broadcasters here in Europe aim for as standard. |
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And even if anyone really doesn't trust lower cost SDHC, the beauty to me of an SxS camera is the choice it gives - you don't have to use low cost media, you can equally use top notch SxS cards with the same camera. Choose the media to suit the assignment. A choice you just don't get with P2. Quote:
Yes, you continue to support what has recently been sold, spare parts, memory cards etc for a realistic period, but it would be foolish to hold back new developments for fear of upsetting past customers. |
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As long as P2 grow in size I wouldn't call it outdated as it outperforms all current sd and cf cards and offers the same or better capacity, of course with a price tag. This might go down with more and more P2 users? Who knows....maybe NAB or IBC will bring some new light to the P2 roadmap? One difficult thing with say jumping over to er new standard are who should decide when? Many broadcaster run their gear almost 10 years before replacing it and they expect service and parts for those years. And I suspect broadcasters with billions in their investment pockets have much more to say then us small freelancers.... |
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You just do not need the complexity and expense of P2 to record pro quality video these days. P2 was a necessary technology to get the speed when being developed, but just isn't anymore. Quote:
I agree they won't natively go for SD or CF for their larger pro gear - far more likely SxS - but as 50Mbs XDCAM-HD422 is a fully approved next gen HD codec, it's likely SDHC/adaptors may still be usable in such cameras. You may choose to use "proper" SxS, but again, the user has the choice. Quote:
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I believe a tipping point will come with a full size pro SxS based camera, and at that point Panasonic will have some very hard decisions to make. At the moment it's perfectly true that if you want a high end solid state camera it has to be Panasonic. Don't expect that to be true for too much longer. |
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Are you still going to raise your prices? Are you going to still buy "A" series cards, are the "E" series not pro enough? I know my hvx200 will be happy. |
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For a rental house though and broadcasters doing 24/7 news the expensive cards till might be the right choice for some users. |
It looks like the first hint of the future for camera memory has come;
ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews I know, this is just a little hickup, but you don't abandon a technology that has a healthy future. I bet SXS and P2 to SDXC adapters are in the near future. |
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