I feel your pain Jan. Thank for all the enlightening insight you have painstakenly written. Having been in product design over the years I perfectly understand you points.

jh

Jan, I am very gratefull for your presence here, it's a great opportunity to voice our concerns, ask intelligent questions and, even though you can and will not "leak" information that we might be eager to know, you do add enormously to the quality of these conversations and go to great care and detail in answering when you can. Please don't go away just because someone is obsessing about an issue or two. Stay with us.

Hey I am not thinking about going away, I just refuse to waste my time on that part of the thread as t benefits none of us. No I want to be here so that when I can say something you guys will be among the first to know.

Best regards,

Jan

Jan: Can I Focus it?
 

Hi Jan,

Thanks again for letting us know what you Can let us know. Theoretical discussions Are a waste of time when you've got a new camera just around the corner!

As I assume the new HD/P2 is still 8 or more months away, here are a few details of its design that I really hope are looked at very closely before its release. No pie-in-the-sky wishlist, just realistic tweaks that could make all the difference. I'd appreciate your comments on what has been or may be implemented re:

1. Viewfinder. --- Needs higher magnification, higher res. If it won't get a physically larger & finer viewing system, than the existing one could be at least made better by exchanging a few optics in it w/higher magn ones. Bigger is better here, and absolutely needed.

2. Viewfinder again. - The only way to exploit the camera's quality (and I believe you that it's gonna' Rock) is to be able to Focus it. Porting over the DVX100's vf will simply not be up to the task. But if the existing vf is what ends up on the HD/P2, then a focus assist toggle that would greatly magnify a central portion, a la Sony Z1/FX1, will be the minimum necessary. This also requires either a higher res vf (or LCD) to make it of much value, and if this system is used, it really should be a good bit better in res/magn than Sony's, which is just Barely adequate. And of course it should also work While recording.

3. ...Let's see... the VF! - Getting the vf much better on a budget is I'm sure a tall order, but will really show Pana's intentions for its end-use, and will make or break the camera's success in the long run. This because when down the line, someone else comes out w/a camera even better than DVCPRO HD, yours will still compete, if it has the better viewing system.

4. Image Stabilization. This camera is probably going to be Extra light in weight, so hopefully the OIS will be specially dialed-in to the nth degree. And made available in HD mode. I think a small form-factor for a camera like this is perfect, but that means it will end up being hand-held that much more often.

Along w/picture quality, and of course **low-light capability**, the ability to fine focus must be job #1 on the new cam. Thanks for listening, and if anyone in engineering/product dev needs to be reminded of any of the above before it's too late, please forward!

Agreed completely. Focus is crucial, especially considering the cost of an HD field monitor. PLEASE include an "enhanced focus" option, something like what the FX1/Z1 do, which would let us zoom in to full pixel resolution for focusing! That's probably the #1 best feature it *needs*...

Re: Jan: Can I Focus it?
 

Hi Vlad,
>As I assume the new HD/P2 is still 8 or more months away, here are a few details of its design that I really hope are looked at very closely before its release.

You would be amazed at how much is locked in at this time. Your suggestions are good ones and I will pass them along. From the time of the first DVX idea till the first NAB with it, was 18 months. There are many things that go into these little cameras that not everyone can appreciate.

It is sort of like the 1880 Victorian my husband and I purchased. Before we do anything really cool, we have redone the electrical, which was done in the 20's and the 40's and again i the 90's, we have redone the gas, and the plumbing. When we are all done, none of this work will show, and we have owned the house for 5 months. Of course we gratefully don't have to live in it at the same time as we are the world's slowest contractors. ;-)

>This camera is probably going to be Extra light in weight, so hopefully the OIS will be specially dialed-in to the nth degree.

People think/thought the SPX800 would weigh in significantly lighter than its tape-based brother the SDX900. They are within ounces of each other.

Thanks for the ideas, I will pass them along.

Best,

Jan

> something like what the FX1/Z1 do,
> which would let us zoom in to full pixel
> resolution for focusing!

Yes! But unlike the FX1/Z1, make sure it can be used while recording.

Since we are all speculating here (except Jan) I have to believe that on the day (or shortly after) the new Pana is officially announced, there will also be an announcement from some 3rd party about an dvcprohd hard disk recording system. There shouldn't be any reason the pana couldn't record directly through the firewire interface. If it's anything like what JVC does for their 5000 series of cams, it should be quite small and easy to haul around. Maybe even hook up to the on cam battery.
If this isn't the case... someone on this board should get venture captital and move quickly.

I really think the current crop of P2 cards are more for ENG work than short/feature production. at least for the near term.

There are too many smart people out there to ignore such an opportunity.

But with NDAs all around I'm just blowing smoke at the moment. Okay I've got that off my chest now. hehehe

Since we are wishlisting, here is the Hard Disk that fits in a PC-Card slot and can handle more than 100 Mbps. Please Jan pass on the idea that the camera should be able to use this kind of storage in it's slot:

Meet the Toshiba 1.8 inch PC-Card. The initial offering is 5 GB but it seems they can scale that up to 60 GB as they have disks in the same form factor with that capacity:
http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Pat...00659C000003B7

Indy future is in your hands!
 

Jan, I do appreciate how far in advance the many details of these things have to fall into place, which is why I limited my suggestions to those that could be Relatively easy to change, if they want to. But I cannot stress enough the importance of having a better finder in this cam. It is the vital heart of the device that has Not kept pace w/the advances in its electronics.

We're reaching the point w/this level camera, where potentially more important or more-widely viewed work could get made w/them, some of it for the big screen. Pana is obviously keeping its price point flexible (or at least under its hat) at this stage, so if adding $500 or $800 to the MSRP can allow it to have an improved viewing system, then I'm certain that would help distance the camera from the field and sell more of them, and make users who know the difference grateful for Panasonic's commitment.

Oh, and good luck w/the house!

Jan,

I love my DVX100A, it is simply an unbelievable camera for the money.

If I was going to fault anything about it, it would be the viewfinder/LCD. (with full recognition of what's possible, versus money and other"big picture" thinking.)

So, with respect, and from my little world, I echo the wishes of some previous posts.

In regard to data storage (tape, p2, giant p2, third party cards, camera mountable hard disks, magic codecs du jour, blah blah blah) its my hope that I would be able to take this camera on the road for a couple of weeks and return home with the aprox 600 minutes of HD footage I would shoot for two episodics, with low hassles and reliabilty. My current HD cameras are all Arriflex.

I really don't care if it writes its data on peanut butter cubes in sanscrit, so long as its reliable, affordable, and I can shoot for an hour or so without breaking down the production, and i can easily and safely store the data.

This is the message from my world. Other peoples worlds may differ.

Thanks

Design is Frozen by now
 

If you've never been directly involved in the design, development, test, and production of a product it may be hard to understand and appreciate the lead time necessary to bring a product to market.

The final design features MUST be frozen well in advance of production in order to properly test and evaluate the product. During/after testing, usually ONLY the most critical flaws/defects are corrected (and re-tested). The introduction of new design features after the start of testing can have significant, unintended, negative consequences because the product may not have been properly tested prior to production.

While we all desire lots of great features, we all require that the camera work flawlessly, and as advertised. This requires exhaustive testing of a frozen design.

Panasonic has clearly shown that they listen to their customers -- the DVX100 --> DVX100A is a perfect example.

So we shouldn't expect nor pressure Panasonic to be making design changes for the HD camera(s) to be announced at the April 2005 NAB -- it's only a month away!!

> So we shouldn't expect nor pressure Panasonic
> to be making design changes for the HD camera(s)
> to be announced at the April 2005 NAB -- it's only
> a month away!!

I see your point. But the request I have voiced --that is for the P2 slot to be able to use a PC-card hard disk-- is in essence a software feature, it does not alter the physical design of the camera. Also, some requests we are making now can be answered by Panasonic in the way of accesories, deals with other companies and so on.

Software/firmware is more difficult to test than hardware -- it does NOT have to follow the laws of physics. :-)

The last thing one wants to do is make a last minute software change -- the risk of unintended consequences are great!

Why don't we let Panasonic get the camera out the door before we tell them how to redesign it. :-) I would expect there will be future versions/updates to this camera giving us many opportunities for us to provide meaningful feedback to the manufacturer.

Jan has been very gracious and generous with her time here, and has provided incredibly detailed answers -- much more so than any other camera manufacturer I've seen. Let's not run her off. As soon as the new camera hits the streets I'm sure we'll have many questions we would like to ask her. She is an invaluable resource. Her presence here certainly makes me want to strongly consider Panasonic over other brands.

-->>> Her presence here certainly makes me want to strongly consider Panasonic over other brands. -->>>

Likewise. I'm lucky to be in the position where I don't have clients and no real need to upgrade now but I see my XM2 being a little too long in the tooth by the end of the year. Being someone who doesn't want to go the HDV route, I am very interested in what Panasonic will offer.

Aaron

Hey Jan,

You've heard of this new camera coming out by JVC, the GY-HD100. How do think your camera will compare to this one?

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Hey Jan,

You've heard of this new camera coming out by JVC, the GY-HD100. How do think your camera will compare to this one? -->>>

Well the JVC camera will still be a flavor of HDV, which means it is a low data rate, which means that it is still 4:2:0 and compressed audio. It should be interesting to see how they do the 24P and still make the camera record in 60Hz. Unless it is an all new HDV deviant and then that screws up the works for editing. If all of this is resolved, I would be this little camera would smoke the Sony Z1.

That said, up against the Panasonic there are features that it just can't stack up against. Higher data rate, means more info, means uncompressed audio and 4:2:2. DVCPRO, DVCPRO50 and DVCPROHD in editing systems that are supporting it for years. So this camera works in an extensible codec, that allows you to do DV one day HD the next day support the SDX900 camera the next day and the only compromise is the one that we made on compression in the first place back when we said okay, highest quality we can get at three levels of compression, all I frame, intra frame, all uncompressed audio and some have more than two channels but all are at 16 bit, 48kHz. And that is the stuff I can talk about that reassures me that the p2HD camera will be a smokin' camcorder.

Soon,

Jan

This has been one very informative thread, from codecs to bagpipes.
(I'm Scottish) Jan, since you mentioned darkroom work, and I got into Film (albeit on a pretty modest indie level) after twenty yrs. of still photography you might want to take a gander @ www.williamanderson.ca It doesn't move, but...

Thanks Jan,

Mmmmmm.

4:2:2

High data rate.

DVCProHD . . . mmmmmm . . . Jan, you're my hero.

Uh-Oh Jan,

Just heard about this very possible "uncompressed component output" on the new JVC camera. Go to:

http://www.videosystems.com/e-newsletters/HDVatWork_3_23/index.html/#1

It mentions uncompressed out at 720/60p, but the guys here (and most of them are smarter than me) pretty much insist that if it can do 60p, it will do all the standard progressive frame rates, including 24p. You might check the article and tell me how you think the camera compares now. I'd be VERY interested in knowing (given the above speculation is correct), your stance on the possible quality differences between this new HDX-100 and the JVC model.

The JVC comes with interchangeable lens system as well, mentions cinema-gamma, I think 2 XLR inputs. In order to use the uncompressed component out, it also said you have to get a special SDI converter or something, so I'm sure that can't be too inexpensive.

Personally, I like all my puzzle pieces to fit together, so I would have a hard time not going with DVCProHD codec, as my Macintosh FCP HD Editing system is already solidly compatible. If I had to go SDI, I'm sure I now have to deal with getting an extra capture card and yada yada yada. The JVC articles mention that the uncomponent signal output can be coverted to "any type quick time file" with a free shareware, which I assume will quickly become common, but I'm not so sure I trust SDI converters and software converters to not give me all sorts of problems trying to get a clean and wonderful HD signal imported, edited, then exported via FCP HD.

I'm no techy, so anything that can go wrong will. Quality meeting efficiency in filmmaking for me seems to point to the hdx-100, but I must admit the word "uncompressed" carries a lot of weight in the world of HD cinema filmmaking.

Please give me comments/comparisons on all this.

Thanks so much!

Laurence

Clarify 60p please...
 

Hi,

A number of people have mentioned this new camera being capable of 60p

Specifically Laurence Maher states, QUOTE "It mentions uncompressed out at 720/60p, but the guys here (and most of them are smarter than me) pretty much insist that if it can do 60p, it will do all the standard progressive frame rates, including 24p."

Is 60p sixty progressive frames per second thus allowing real slow motion or is it another way of saying 60i?

I hope it doesn't sound dense but it's been bugging me.

Thanks for humouring me.

sincerely,

ian

60p is most definately 60 progressive frames per second, allowing smooth slomo for 30p and 24p projects.

I too have read that the JVC does uncompressed 60p, here on this board, on the HDV@work article, and also on the wesa website, before the information was pulled. From what I can tell, this should be fairly accurate information. Now whether or not it will do other frame rates... dunno. One would assume that it would, but we all know what they say about assumptions...

The JVC info is saying that it'll shoot 60p uncompressed, but not record it at all (uncompressed or compressed).

60p uncompressed on the component outputs is fine and dandy for studio work where you may have the computers, RAIDs, and infrastructure to handle a data rate of 166 megabytes per second... but who has that? What kind of RAID would it take to even be able to capture that data stream?

For live switching or direct to broadcast maybe it'd be appropriate, but being able to actually record 60p is what you'd most likely want (to tape, to P2, to whatever). The JVC apparently has no provision to do so. Hopefully the Panasonic will.

Yes, the JVC would need a computer of some kind on set to capture the signal. I'm thinking a laptop with some large storage and external drives. JVC camera comes with an HD-SDI converter. So a card would be necessary too. Is all the extra crap worth it? Well, if your planning to project your movie to a big screen, it just might be. Hopefully one could figure out a fairly inexpensive storage solution.

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Yes, the JVC would need a computer of some kind on set to capture the signal. I'm thinking a laptop with some large storage and external drives. JVC camera comes with an HD-SDI converter. So a card would be necessary too. Is all the extra crap worth it? Well, if your planning to project your movie to a big screen, it just might be. Hopefully one could figure out a fairly inexpensive storage solution. -->>>

Laurence, Sorry I didn't get back to your question the other day, but the fact that the JVC has an uncompressed output is no different than the FX1 having an uncompressed output. You could take the signal from either and run it into an HD/SDI conversion device, could be somewhere n the +$2000 range and then the video will start to eat up your hard drives to the tune of 994Mbs a second. That is what an HD signal looks like in uncompressed with no prefilter.

Then you just have to ask yourself is the performance of the camera up to the task. Can you get more than 4 stops of latitude with it? What is the low light performance and does your shooting style allow you to take the computer with you? Can you utilize the camera as it is standing, in HDV? Which edit systems support this 720P/24?


The JVC camera does not come with the HD/SDI converter, it has a analog HD signal which can be converted.

Hope that helps,

Jan

PS. And I don't believe for a second that this camera will be any better than the P2 HD camera, and certainly will not be a feature rich or as flexible.

Add to it famous Panasonic reliability.

Can we just have an option for 1080 24p and get it over with instead of having to make all these Sophie's Choices?

I'm with Betsy. 1080/24p would just end all the discussion, wouldn't it? :)

(of course, there's only one 1080/24p camera in the world right now available for general sale, and it costs $100,000 just for the body...)

But yeah, I think it'd be hard for anyone to argue with 1080/24p!

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : I'm with Betsy. 1080/24p would just end all the discussion, wouldn't it? :)

(of course, there's only one 1080/24p camera in the world right now available for general sale, and it costs $100,000 just for the body...)

But yeah, I think it'd be hard for anyone to argue with 1080/24p! -->>>

Wouldn't it be possible to do it as 1080Ps24 in the 1080i stream, as Sony was (wrongly) rumored to be doing with the Z1? Because the P2 is solid-state, theoretically it could support both 720p and 1080i (and indeed the DVCPro HD format does). One of the Panasonic MPEG-2 mock-ups had an accompanying card with tentative specs (http://www.pbase.com/pappasartshd/image/35515106) clearly stating support for 720p30, 1080i60, and 1080p30! This means that the CCDs support 1080p scanning. Although 1080p24 (or any 24p) is conspicuously absent from the listed specs, I would assume that it could be inserted, as I said, into the 1080i60 stream and recovered with a 2:3:3:2 pulldown. But it would probably be recorded at the full 100-Mbps datarate, rendering 1080p24 impractical until higher-capacity P2 cards are available.

That's old picture, plus it doesn't list 24p anyway.

It lists 1080 25p and 50 Mbps. 25p or 24p, same difference.

The <10,000 USD camera supposed to be different one.

Panasonic does not give details. They may shock everyone with 1080 24 or 25p.

<<<-- Originally posted by Gary McClurg : That's old picture, plus it doesn't list 24p anyway. -->>>

I know it doesn't list 24p, and I said so. However, as long ago as NAB 2004, Joseph Facchini, director of Product Marketing for Panasonic Broadcast, said the P2 camcorder would support 24p. My point about the mock-up specs was that Panasonic considered it feasible to support 1080i60, 1080p30, 720p30, and 720p60 all on one prosumer camcorder. I then extrapolated that Pansonic could do 24p within the 1080i stream in a fashion similar to how it did it in SD with the DVX100.

Sneak Peak
 

http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

This one is for you Betsy. ;-)

Awesome. The 1080p24 thing just went from US$100k to less than US$10k.

Re: Sneak Peak
 

Jan this isn't the April 4th stuff you mention?

Jan, I am glad you guys stayed with the DVX100 look. From the image atleast that's what it kinda looks like. Ofcourse i never got under silk sheets with my DVX100 before so i don't know that for sure. Hmmmm!

As I said before the DVX100 was my favorite of the 24p cams and gave me the best image in it's class.

Glad to see that it has 1080I. I have a firend that does a show for the outdoor channel and needed 1080I, he had concerns that you guys might not have the 60I look. Now I can call him and let him know....

Michael Papppas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS


<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

This one is for you Betsy. ;-) -->>>

Thanks, Jan, I'll sing at your renewal vows!

Re: Re: Sneak Peak
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Jan this isn't the April 4th stuff you mention?
Michael Papppas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS

Yes it is, I was surprised that it hit early.

Now I can at least have a few more bullet points. ;-)

<< Yes it is, I was suprised that it hit early. >>

Funny how that tends to happen in this business! For example JVC misfired with their ProHD press release when WEVA published it too early, and then retracted it. And last July the Canon XL2 announcement went out six hours ahead of time by accident. I don't know how you marketing folks endure in the face of those circumstances.

Re: Re: Re: Sneak Peak
 

Jan,

Those extra bits are more like Howitzer weapon points to the competition that you now have Jan.

I would hate to be the competition today. Hmmm, I wonder how the competition will promote at NAB knowing that their cameras are not so on top of the hill. More like half way down compared to what the HVX200 has.

Again good work Panasonic.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS



<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston :
Yes it is, I was surprised that it hit early.

Now I can at least have a few more bullet points. ;-) -->>>

Wow. Just wow. 1080p24. :)

Did you just get married Jan? If, so congratulations!