I would hate to be the competition today.

Actually - I'd love to be the competition today. As great as this HVX200 sounds, it's way out of my price range (I'm an FX1 owner), and it occurs to me, that there's a gap waiting to filled... Namely, there's a nice little hole in the $2k - $4k gap for a progressive HD camcorder without so many bells and whistles.

(go Canon?)

Yes, price is the thing we need to see now - for those thinking of HD and whether we can get this beastie within the range of the other HD (Sony HDV <shudder>) cams - Thanks Jan.

Oh, and yeah, did you just get married? :)


Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven White : I would hate to be the competition today.

Actually - I'd love to be the competition today. As great as this HVX200 sounds, it's way out of my price range (I'm an FX1 owner), and it occurs to me, that there's a gap waiting to filled... Namely, there's a nice little hole in the $2k - $4k gap for a progressive HD camcorder without so many bells and whistles.

(go Canon?) -->>>

We don't actually know the price of the HVX200 yet. I would speculate on the GL3 fitting that price range and being HDV, but that is for Area 51...

Hmmm... Unveiled in April... debut in... June? October? December?

Re: Sneak Peak
 

So what about us from Euroland - no 25p? Can we expect an upcoming AG-HDV200E? hmmm......

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031
-->>>

Ok, I can anwser my own questions : - )

Quote from DVXUSER:

Yes Robert, there will be a PAL version for Europe/Au/NZ.

1080/50i, 108025p, 720/50p, 720/25p, 576/50i, 576/25p. All DVCPRO codecs and DV. This is all I know so far. I can't wait to get to NAB.
__________________
Gabriel Costache
Professional and Broadcast Systems
Panasonic New Zealand

What?! There is an official rep from New Zealand on DVXUser, or was it just a personal email reply? Problem with the NZ version is that I guaranee it will be $US * Exchange rate conversion * 2... :) We always get a bum deal here.


Aaron

Yep there's a NZ product manager who drops by now and then :). Ain't it great?

Yes it is! I'll have to visit more often. Are you from NZ Aaron?

Aaron

Nice name btw. I like it ;).

No, I'm not from NZ. Wish I were! It's an amazing place! I just know I've seen the guy around off and on over there. Goes by the name of PanasonicNZ.

Yes, DVXUser gets frequented by representatives from at least three Panasonic territories: Canada, US, and NZ.

OK, I checked out the forum, and thought, hmm that name is familiar. Turns out he is the husband of a woman I work with :) She rang him from work and the answer was "No more til NAB" ;)

Aaron

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!!!!

HOLD THE BOAT!!!!!!

I just want to make sure I'm regestering this info correctly. Someone put up this link . . .

http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

It stated (to the word) the following . . .


"Panasonic
AG-HVX200 DVCPRO HD P2 Camcorder

Unveiling at NAB 2005, the AG-HVX200 is the professional video industry's most anticipated technology breakthrough. This revolutionary, hand-held P2 camcorder provides 1080i and 720p recording with the production proven image quality of 100 Mbps DVCPRO HD. The AG-HVX200 records on a P2 card in 1080 in 60i, 30p and 24p; in720 in 60p, 30p and 24p; in 480 in 60i, 30p, and 24p either in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO."


The link was using panasonic logo, so I assume it was an official Panasonic release. Am I assuming correctly that there are 2 different cameras (the hdx-100 and the hdx-200) The hdx-200 not only does 720 lines in 60p and 24p, BUT . . . the hdx-200 does all this as well as 1080 lines 60p and 24p? Am I interpreting this correctly? And it's all inside the DVCProHD codec with FCP already works wih like a charm?

Oh my god Jan . . . Please tell me it's true, please tell me it's true and at what price. If the hdx-200 specs I listed are correct, and it also comes in under $10,000, you have just destroyed your competition wilh a NUCLEAR BOMB. I WILL BUY ONE IMMEDIATELY.

Please comment on this Jan if you can.

Thanks,

Laurence

I'm pretty sure there's only the one camera, the HVX200 that does

1080i60
1080p30
1080p24
720p60
720p30
720p24

and a host of SD resolutions and frame rates.

The HDX100 was sort of an unofficial moniker until the information you quoted was released... at least that's been my understanding. And the link to the information was originally posted by Jan... so I'm pretty sure it's not some God-awful April Fool's day joke (that and it was released yesterday...)

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher :

Oh my god Jan . . . Please tell me it's true, please tell me it's true and at what price.
Please comment on this Jan if you can.
-->>>
Hi Laurence,

It is true and it will be under $10,000. ;-)

Best regards,

Jan

Jan

I don't know if this in your scope of "able to talk about", but I saw this question raised on another forum, and I thought it was worth a shot.

Will the "little camera" (that now has a name) have essentially variable compression ratios for different frame rates, for instance: 720 60p would have a higher compression than 720 24p keeping the stream at 100 mbps? Or will their be the same compression across the range of resolution/frame rates, with the 720 24p essentially haveing a "true" bandwidth of something like 40mbps?

Barry

(by the way thank you for you gracious and informative comments on these boards..you put up with a lot of hooey sometimes)

Hi Barry,

DVCPRO has the same amount of compression per frame. Each frame stands on it own. The resolution is the same on a frame per frame basis. Unlike MPEG2.

Doe sthat answer the question?

Best,

jan

Jan

I'm not sure. Let me phrase it the way it was put over at dvxuser...When shooting in 720 24p...are we really shooting 60p, and then the camera pulls some magic and tosses away some frames to make it 24p. Thus, while the actual data stream is 100mbs, only about 40 percent of that goes to make up the frames of the 24p output. (or 50% for 30p output). Is that how it works ?(obviously a simplification of how it really works).

Barry

Also will could she say if it always wrote at a 100mps or what ever the speed is.

I thought I read that she or somone said it always writes at a 100 no matter what. Some thought it'd write at 40mps since it would have to record the information that isn't used in the pull down.

But maybe they'll be some things revealed on April 4th unless we already saw the ad.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Goyette : Jan

I'm not sure. Let me phrase it the way it was put over at dvxuser...When shooting in 720 24p...are we really shooting 60p, and then the camera pulls some magic and tosses away some frames to make it 24p. Thus, while the actual data stream is 100mbs, only about 40 percent of that goes to make up the frames of the 24p output. (or 50% for 30p output). Is that how it works ?(obviously a simplification of how it really works).
-->>>

While I cannot disscuss how this camera works, I can discuss the concept of the data remaining in the DVCPRO HD signal once the extra frames have been removed. DVCPRO HD has 100Mbps at 60 frames of information. The compression on each frame is equal and the same, d optimized for the compromise of intraframe compression. If we look at the fact that there is 60 frames per second and there is 100Mbps, we have a formula. If we only use 24 of those frames, then we are using a little over 1/3 of the data or about 40Mbps. When working with FCP over firewire, you can reduce the data load from 100Mbps to 40Mbps just by casting off the exta frames.

Interestingly enough when working in DVCPRO50 and you remove the pulldown of 2:3:3:2 you are roughly at 40Mbps as well. Do these two look anything alike? No. The size of the image is much larger on the DVCPRO HD.

Does that help?

Best,

Jan

crystal clear...thank you for the explanation.

Barry

So what about the "PAL version" of DVCPRO HD? Will it still be 100mbs at 60fps or 100mbs at 50?

I guess it's about 83mbs, right?

It looks like Firestore support for this camera is very promising:

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/a...e.jsp?id=31579

Linkified. Thanks, Brad. I need to add that press release to our own Articles section.

Interesting. Not having ever used P2, I would have assumed files would be stored in some more generic edit ready format. Do p2 files have to go through a conversion process after acquisition? That was one of my issues with HDV, that it wasn't immediately edit-ready (So I thought). I would have assumed random access media like the p2 would be even more edit ready. I don't want to have to do some conversion before I can edit. Guess it's up to the NLE's to support native MXF?

Or am I missing something here with the Firestore DV converter stuff? I hate waffly press releases that tell you almost nothing.

Aaron

The files are edit-ready with Avid editing systems, as they accept the mxf format natively.

The conversion suite referenced is a solid product ... that has been around unchanged for years.

The conversion process doesn't recompress or apply a codec, it just changes the file structure to meet the standards required.

GB

i'm as excited as you are 'bout this little beast..still my guess is it'll be max 7k..more like 5k

why?
looking at its body, it's clearly a consumer/prosumer cam even if it gives you superior quality. indy filmmakers make a small percentage of the sales of such cameras..usually it's the high-salery-geeks (lawyers, doctors, whatever) who just want's the latest and best equipment to film his daughter at the beach..he doesn't even understand 24p, 1080, datarate, compression, but if the salesman tells him it's the best he get's in the prosumer area, he'll buy it...still he probably wouldn't buy it at 10k thinking that's a stuff for the pros, not him

i also think small tv stations gonna favor the jvc cam, even if it'll have a lower quality..cheap tape..exch. lens..even me i'm kinda undecided

I like the idea of trying DVCPro, but I've always longed for the Canon Xl series wank factor. Now JVC have it, it's interesting, and they have more than the Canon, but of course the price will reflect this.

Aaron

It's neither of these Carmen.

If it were a consumer camera first and then adapted, then yes.

This is not the case.

It was designed and built by the professional/broadcast division of Panasonic. DVCHD Pro is not a consumer HD standard any more then HDcam used in CineAlta is. CineAlta and DVCpro HD are competing HD codecs. The Panasonic is a low end professional/industrial level gear.


Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/Arrfilms


<<<-- Originally posted by Carmen Stern :it's clearly a consumer/prosumer cam even if it gives you superior quality -->>>

Ya guys, the panny will be awesome but let's not get ahead of ourselves. A company announcing a camera for under 10 k means it will be $9,999.99, and if you buy in state, throw in taxes to boot . . . however . . . .

Does this really matter? The Panny is UN-TOUCHABLE for that price, with that codec in 1080p. Yes, the interchangeable lenses on the JVC is great, but please, HDV codec? And if you use it's uncompressed out (with the understanding that their definition of "uncompressed" is may be as sucky as the Sony Z-1 "uncompressed" out, which has a registered color space of less than 2:1:1 after transfered to computer with top end AJA cards) you'll have to get a specialized HD-SDI converter and then drag around a raid system around for footage acquistion? No dice.

But Panny hit snake eyes with theirs. Awesome quality image and incredible shooting convenience to boot. I think it's possible that this camera is going to be the greatest invention for Hollywood bound indy filmmakers since . . . well, maybe EVER.

If the lens is a decent one, which it probably will be, and you've got FCP HD for nearly flawless computer editing, you'll be making movies . . . I mean REAL ones, none of that first college project crap.

Is this, or is this not worth 10 k?

Why the 9,999.99 assumption?
 

Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : I have my Dale Earnhardt flame retardant suit on. -->>>Actually, Dale Jr. was burned significantly if not seriously in a race last summer. Fire suit and all.

Questions:

1. Is there a way to record to the PC as a backup device?

2. What is the proposed mechanism for long term storage? Even a DV25 tape is huge for storage on any other media. My right foot is resting on top of a computer with 1.3 Terabytes, however that doesn't seem like nearly enough with this format.

Thanks,

David

P.S.
Conradulations on your wedding!

1. Better than recording to a PC as a backup device would be the ability to record directly to an edit-ready portable FireWire hard drive such as the FireStore FS-3 or FS-4. We should find out soon whether or not this is possible.

2. Among various alternatives for long-term storage are DVCPro HD cassettes, low-cost hard disks, Blu-Ray and DVD-HD options. Remember you're keeping only what you need... for everything else... there's always tape.

Re: Why the 9,999.99 assumption?
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those. -->>>

Kevin, you're right; we don't know. I guess the hysteria, or more rightly concern, is really to do with what we are potentially seeing as being on offer. I mean, DVCProHD, recording to P2. This is so mind blowing for anyone who is in the price range most of us sit at, that we find it hard to believe that under 10K is going to be something like $5000. Especially given the cost of P2 cards. I guess Panasonic could be giving us a P2 in the box at cost to help secure sales - but I wouldn't know what that would be - 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? I have no idea.

I think the concerns are warranted, cause we all want one of these babies, but I really do think it will be $7k at a minimum. Which, yes is under 10K, but not the XL2, Z1 price range.

Aaron

<< 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >>

But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >>

But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1. -->>>


Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was trying to say taht the total cost of the P2 card in the package is really a lot less than retail. So hopefully it's not going to up the price too much, but I think it's still going to be higher than Z1/Xl2 and as you said, it probably doesn't have to be the same as them. Maybe it has to be below what JVC do with their new shoulder mount, interchangeable lens HDV machine, but that's it.

Aaron

I've never otherwise been a giant fan of the XL-1 but is there any reason why no other 4000 dollar camera offers interchangable lens mounts?

That's what I've always wondered, and asked, but noone must know. Maybe they all had higher end cameras and so didn't want to appear to be moving in on that market in case they lost sales of the high ends - especially as the low end ones got better and better.

Aaron

The JVC looks like it's coming in at 7,700 MSRP so I'll bet the Panny is cheaper than that, since no interchangeable lenses.

6995.00 list
5995.00 street