1080 24p quality on this breakthru camera is indie filmmaker's dream

Michael Pappas · April 5th, 2005, 01:10 PM

NO....NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

That's not funny. I shouldn't have asked. Damit..Damit...Damit.

Chris, you warned me and I didn't listen...............

Michael Pappas
http://www.PBASE.Com/ARRFILMS

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : >>What is "going Godiva" mean Chris? <<
Michael he means 'naked' as in the way you are born. (Now that you will have that image stuck in your head for the rest of your life....) but you asked for it, hehehe

I guess we could all just 'hang around' to see what shows up aye? -->>>

Barlow Elton · April 5th, 2005, 01:24 PM

Hi guys, first time poster here:

Well, so many questions about this camera...but the possibilities are absolutely mind boggling! Of course, like many, I'm very intrigued but apprehensive about the whole P2 leap. My main gig consists of shooting and editing an outdoors program with a mix of action coverage, interviews, and product reviews/tests. This camera would be an absolute dream if I can at least get 15-20 min. continuous shooting at full 100 mbs quality HD. I think I can deal with card swapping to some degree, but just not every 4 min (of footage)...that's a no go. A typical 1/2 hr program is shot with at least 3-5 hrs of footage, (sometimes much more, sometimes less), so by my rough calculations, I will need about 30 gigs of HD storage per hour of footage (100 mbs), so a 160GB or higher FireWire
drive could substitute for tapes. Yes, more expensive than DV tape(in comparison to HDV) and of course, WAY less than DVCproHD stock, but much less hassle and immediate accessibilty if a re-edit is called for. Long term archival is questionable, but who knows with Blu-ray and HD DVD, it may be fairly cheap and reliable...or not. One thing I do know is I've had more than my share of problems with tape, as I shoot in often very adverse conditions where it constantly calls for camera covers and the like. P2 may be great for these kinds of shoots, but not if the recording times are absurdly miniscule. Firestores would be a great interim step if Panasonic chooses to let Firewire output be live and streamable to an external device, but my fear is that they'll handicap this in order to establish P2 dependancy, even if it means inhibiting camera sales because of this glaring issue.

That said, I don't fault Panasonic for trying something new. Two 8 GB cards at the current 4GB premium might work, but it certainly gives one pause to reflect on that kind of investment in TINY media...and yes, it is MEDIA! Still, I love the fact that it bypasses the need for a deck, at least in my situation. THAT is a good thing!

Ah well, so many things to grok. Can't wait for NAB!

Luis Caffesse · April 5th, 2005, 01:31 PM

"This camera would be an absolute dream if I can at least get 15-20 min. continuous shooting at full 100 mbs quality HD"

Well, you may have to wait a short time, but it will undoubtedly happen.

Panasonic has said they hope to have a 16GB P2 card out for NAB 2006. That would give you roughly 20 minutes of DVCProHD at the full 100mb/s.

When you consider that this camera won't even be available for roughly another 5 or 6 months (i'm guessing here), then it's really not that far away. You're looking at roughly 8 or 9 months after the release of the camera.

Of course, now I'm just in pure 'speculation' land.
Either way, exciting times we're in, aren't they?

Aaron Shaw · April 5th, 2005, 01:36 PM

And Jan mentioned that 8gig cards will be out this August :)

Barlow Elton · April 5th, 2005, 01:53 PM

Exciting times indeed. The HVX could be the final push for guys like me into the full-time HD realm. Yes, it's no Varicam, but it's also alot of things the Varicam isn't...which is great!

Incidentally, I find this mix of frame-rates is a great feature for me. I need my action footage more often than not to feel "live" and "real", therefore 60p will do quite nicely. I would use 24p or 30p whenever I wanted a "cinematic" look, but then again, why not process 60p with magic bullet or Nattress and have the option of keeping the 60p look if you changed your mind? I have no desire to shoot 1080i despite the higher res, because interlace is something I've always wanted to be rid of, it's just that interlace is pretty much all video ever was for so long.
I think future uprezzing algorithims will do a very nice job with progressive images, and be much less artifact prone.

Barry Green · April 5th, 2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

I will need about 30 gigs of HD storage per hour of footage (100 mbs)

Actually, you'd need about twice that. At 100mbps, you get about a minute per gigabyte, so 60 gigs of HD per hour. If you were shooting 720/24p, you get about 2.5 minutes per gig, and at the full 100mbps rate (1080/60i or 720/60p) it's about 1 minute per gig.

Aaron Koolen · April 5th, 2005, 02:15 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barlow Elton : Hi guys, first time poster here:

Well, so many questions about this camera...but the possibilities are -->>>

Welcome Barlow, and good post. I agree, the time for tape to die is nigh - well it's been nigh for a while, and it's good to see Panasonic doing something about this. Without sounding too sycophantic, I've grown to really like Panasonic. I admired them with the revolutionary DVX, and now I think I'm going to admire them more with this new camera. For someone like me thats reason enough to hold out on buying something else, and also reason enough on putting up with some of the limitations (Re recording time) that we might see.

Thumbs up to Panasonic - let's hope they stay up after NAB ;)

Aaron

Aaron Koolen · April 5th, 2005, 02:35 PM

Can someone tell me what the actual pixel resolution is of the DVCProHD formats? Are they square pixels and so 1080 means it's 1920, or something else?

Aaron

Carl Merritt · April 5th, 2005, 02:44 PM

How can one edit this stuff on a PC or Mac?

If the HDV 25mb/s makes a dualie PC struggle, what kind of system would be required to edit 100mb/s HD!?!?

Aaron Koolen · April 5th, 2005, 02:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Carl Merritt : How can one edit this stuff on a PC or Mac?

If the HDV 25mb/s makes a dualie PC struggle, what kind of system would be required to edit 100mb/s HD!?!? -->>>

If your dualie PC is struggling with DV25, there's something wrong....Sure you're not editing off floppy disks? :)

I edit a couple of streams of DV25 in realtime without too much problem, and I'm usually doing something stupid like having all streams on the same drive which will definately kill it.

What software you using?

Getting stuff off the drive should be fine, I mean DVCProHD is 14megabytes a second - easy peasy for a drive these days.

Aaron

Barlow Elton · April 5th, 2005, 02:59 PM

Thanks for the correction Barry. I guess I was underestimating by quite a wide margin. I've worked with DVCproHD material on a BlackMagic/FCP setup, and the 1080i/24p material (HDCAM SDI conversion) was about 32 GB for 50 min. of material. In quoting 30 gigs per hour, I was mentally adding the 720p/24p stuff, which would probably be 1/3rd the material, but I was still off for sure.

250 GB FW drives are pretty dang cheap now. That's about 4 hrs of 720/60p. In addition, I think we'll see 1TB single drives in the not-too-distant future. HD archival seems pretty feasible now.

Barlow Elton · April 5th, 2005, 03:09 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : Can someone tell me what the actual pixel resolution is of the DVCProHD formats? Are they square pixels and so 1080 means it's 1920, or something else?

Aaron -->>>

Final Cut Pro tells me that 1080i DVCProHD is actually 1280x1080, but when I view the clip in QuickTime player, QT says it's 1920x1080. I'm pretty sure Panny uses a horizontal pixel stretch in order to achieve the HD spec resolution. A tradeoff for sure, but still looks wonderful for the data rate employed. HDCAM 24p converted to this format is amazingly good, considering the multiple gens of compression.

720p is allegedly 960x720, again, stretched horizontally.

Emre Safak · April 5th, 2005, 03:42 PM

Quote:

If your dualie PC is struggling with DV25...

Dude, he said HDV, not DV! Just because they have the same bit rate, it does not mean they have the same complexity. HDV is long GOP MPEG-2...

Aaron Shaw · April 5th, 2005, 03:54 PM

MPEG2 is hard to edit precisely because it is MPEG2. You should be able to edit a real frame per frame format with much more ease.

Aaron Koolen · April 5th, 2005, 04:46 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Emre Safak : Dude, he said HDV, not DV! Just because they have the same bit rate, it does not mean they have the same complexity. HDV is long GOP MPEG-2... -->>>

My bad, I definately misread there. My understanding though is that you don't edit MPG2 native, most people convert using Cineform Intermediate or some such. Then you have no problems - apparently.

Aaron

April 5th, 2005, 01:31 PM	#33
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	"This camera would be an absolute dream if I can at least get 15-20 min. continuous shooting at full 100 mbs quality HD" Well, you may have to wait a short time, but it will undoubtedly happen. Panasonic has said they hope to have a 16GB P2 card out for NAB 2006. That would give you roughly 20 minutes of DVCProHD at the full 100mb/s. When you consider that this camera won't even be available for roughly another 5 or 6 months (i'm guessing here), then it's really not that far away. You're looking at roughly 8 or 9 months after the release of the camera. Of course, now I'm just in pure 'speculation' land. Either way, exciting times we're in, aren't they? __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

April 5th, 2005, 02:15 PM	#37
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	<<<-- Originally posted by Barlow Elton : Hi guys, first time poster here: Well, so many questions about this camera...but the possibilities are -->>> Welcome Barlow, and good post. I agree, the time for tape to die is nigh - well it's been nigh for a while, and it's good to see Panasonic doing something about this. Without sounding too sycophantic, I've grown to really like Panasonic. I admired them with the revolutionary DVX, and now I think I'm going to admire them more with this new camera. For someone like me thats reason enough to hold out on buying something else, and also reason enough on putting up with some of the limitations (Re recording time) that we might see. Thumbs up to Panasonic - let's hope they stay up after NAB ;) Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 5th, 2005, 02:35 PM	#38
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Can someone tell me what the actual pixel resolution is of the DVCProHD formats? Are they square pixels and so 1080 means it's 1920, or something else? Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 5th, 2005, 02:50 PM	#40
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	<<<-- Originally posted by Carl Merritt : How can one edit this stuff on a PC or Mac? If the HDV 25mb/s makes a dualie PC struggle, what kind of system would be required to edit 100mb/s HD!?!? -->>> If your dualie PC is struggling with DV25, there's something wrong....Sure you're not editing off floppy disks? :) I edit a couple of streams of DV25 in realtime without too much problem, and I'm usually doing something stupid like having all streams on the same drive which will definately kill it. What software you using? Getting stuff off the drive should be fine, I mean DVCProHD is 14megabytes a second - easy peasy for a drive these days. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 5th, 2005, 04:46 PM	#45
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	<<<-- Originally posted by Emre Safak : Dude, he said HDV, not DV! Just because they have the same bit rate, it does not mean they have the same complexity. HDV is long GOP MPEG-2... -->>> My bad, I definately misread there. My understanding though is that you don't edit MPG2 native, most people convert using Cineform Intermediate or some such. Then you have no problems - apparently. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

April 5th, 2005, 01:10 PM	#31
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	NO....NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO That's not funny. I shouldn't have asked. Damit..Damit...Damit. Chris, you warned me and I didn't listen............... Michael Pappas http://www.PBASE.Com/ARRFILMS <<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : >>What is "going Godiva" mean Chris? << Michael he means 'naked' as in the way you are born. (Now that you will have that image stuck in your head for the rest of your life....) but you asked for it, hehehe I guess we could all just 'hang around' to see what shows up aye? -->>>

April 5th, 2005, 01:24 PM	#32
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Hi guys, first time poster here: Well, so many questions about this camera...but the possibilities are absolutely mind boggling! Of course, like many, I'm very intrigued but apprehensive about the whole P2 leap. My main gig consists of shooting and editing an outdoors program with a mix of action coverage, interviews, and product reviews/tests. This camera would be an absolute dream if I can at least get 15-20 min. continuous shooting at full 100 mbs quality HD. I think I can deal with card swapping to some degree, but just not every 4 min (of footage)...that's a no go. A typical 1/2 hr program is shot with at least 3-5 hrs of footage, (sometimes much more, sometimes less), so by my rough calculations, I will need about 30 gigs of HD storage per hour of footage (100 mbs), so a 160GB or higher FireWire drive could substitute for tapes. Yes, more expensive than DV tape(in comparison to HDV) and of course, WAY less than DVCproHD stock, but much less hassle and immediate accessibilty if a re-edit is called for. Long term archival is questionable, but who knows with Blu-ray and HD DVD, it may be fairly cheap and reliable...or not. One thing I do know is I've had more than my share of problems with tape, as I shoot in often very adverse conditions where it constantly calls for camera covers and the like. P2 may be great for these kinds of shoots, but not if the recording times are absurdly miniscule. Firestores would be a great interim step if Panasonic chooses to let Firewire output be live and streamable to an external device, but my fear is that they'll handicap this in order to establish P2 dependancy, even if it means inhibiting camera sales because of this glaring issue. That said, I don't fault Panasonic for trying something new. Two 8 GB cards at the current 4GB premium might work, but it certainly gives one pause to reflect on that kind of investment in TINY media...and yes, it is MEDIA! Still, I love the fact that it bypasses the need for a deck, at least in my situation. THAT is a good thing! Ah well, so many things to grok. Can't wait for NAB!

April 5th, 2005, 01:36 PM	#34
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	And Jan mentioned that 8gig cards will be out this August :)

April 5th, 2005, 01:53 PM	#35
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Exciting times indeed. The HVX could be the final push for guys like me into the full-time HD realm. Yes, it's no Varicam, but it's also alot of things the Varicam isn't...which is great! Incidentally, I find this mix of frame-rates is a great feature for me. I need my action footage more often than not to feel "live" and "real", therefore 60p will do quite nicely. I would use 24p or 30p whenever I wanted a "cinematic" look, but then again, why not process 60p with magic bullet or Nattress and have the option of keeping the 60p look if you changed your mind? I have no desire to shoot 1080i despite the higher res, because interlace is something I've always wanted to be rid of, it's just that interlace is pretty much all video ever was for so long. I think future uprezzing algorithims will do a very nice job with progressive images, and be much less artifact prone.

April 5th, 2005, 02:44 PM	#39
Carl Merritt Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 60	How can one edit this stuff on a PC or Mac? If the HDV 25mb/s makes a dualie PC struggle, what kind of system would be required to edit 100mb/s HD!?!?

April 5th, 2005, 02:59 PM	#41
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Thanks for the correction Barry. I guess I was underestimating by quite a wide margin. I've worked with DVCproHD material on a BlackMagic/FCP setup, and the 1080i/24p material (HDCAM SDI conversion) was about 32 GB for 50 min. of material. In quoting 30 gigs per hour, I was mentally adding the 720p/24p stuff, which would probably be 1/3rd the material, but I was still off for sure. 250 GB FW drives are pretty dang cheap now. That's about 4 hrs of 720/60p. In addition, I think we'll see 1TB single drives in the not-too-distant future. HD archival seems pretty feasible now.

April 5th, 2005, 03:09 PM	#42
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : Can someone tell me what the actual pixel resolution is of the DVCProHD formats? Are they square pixels and so 1080 means it's 1920, or something else? Aaron -->>> Final Cut Pro tells me that 1080i DVCProHD is actually 1280x1080, but when I view the clip in QuickTime player, QT says it's 1920x1080. I'm pretty sure Panny uses a horizontal pixel stretch in order to achieve the HD spec resolution. A tradeoff for sure, but still looks wonderful for the data rate employed. HDCAM 24p converted to this format is amazingly good, considering the multiple gens of compression. 720p is allegedly 960x720, again, stretched horizontally.

April 5th, 2005, 03:54 PM	#44
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	MPEG2 is hard to edit precisely because it is MPEG2. You should be able to edit a real frame per frame format with much more ease.

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