New P2 camera with AVC ultra at DVinfo.net

Gary Nattrass · March 22nd, 2013, 12:39 PM

More details here and it looks very interesting: Panasonic Announces 2/3-INCH, 3-Chip AJ-PX5000G AVC-ULTRA P2 HD Shoulder-Mount with MicroP2 Card Slots, AVC-LongG at DV Info Net

Glen Vandermolen · March 23rd, 2013, 07:01 AM

Very nice. This must be the first 2/3" shoulder mount cam with 1080/60P.
Unfortunately, my budget is more in line with the HPX600, 370 or 250.

Gary Nattrass · March 23rd, 2013, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

Very nice. This must be the first 2/3" shoulder mount cam with 1080/60P.
Unfortunately, my budget is more in line with the HPX600, 370 or 250.

Me too but we shall see as it has three CMOS chips not CCD.

Sanjin Svajger · March 23rd, 2013, 02:01 PM

What CMOS sensor in an 28k ENG body ?? Is the sensor global shutter?

David Heath · March 23rd, 2013, 02:43 PM

The more I read that Press Release, the more I find myself thinking about what's not being said, rather than what is. Panasonic really made their name camera-wise with the Varicam, and much of their high-end following was down to it's vari-speed facilities. With the 3000 series, then whilst it brought true 1920x1080 to 2/3", there was disappointment about the limited slow motion offerings. So why no mention of varispeed capabilities here? Does that mean they aren't very good?

And 1080p/60 in AVC-Intra 100 seems extremely odd to me.

It's been long established that 60p does not need twice the bandwidth of 30p for equivalent compression quality - but that has always been assuming an inter-frame compression system. But AVC-Intra is (obviously) an intra-frame system.

Which means that each and every frame gets allocated the same amount of data - for 1080p/25, each frame gets 4 Mb (0.5MB) - 100Mb every second divided amongst 25 frames. Go to 1080p/50 and that same 100Mb every second must now be distributed amongst 50 frames - so half as much data per frame, each frame now can only have 2Mb or only 0.25MB.

I'd expect to see AVC-Intra 200 used to record 50/60p. That or compromise quality. In an intra-frame system, double the frame rate and you have to double the bitrate to preserve the per frame compression quality, all else equal.

I'm also not sure what to make about micro-P2. With the SxS cameras, then I am quite a fan of using SDHC cards via an adaptor - in some circumstances, and assuming 35Mbs is acceptable. (See http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...ml#post1782861 and the last couple of posts in the same thread.)

But the point is that it's to permit a different workflow. It's the cheapness of the cards that's important in such a case, it's comparable to tape and enables them to be treated as such, means that they can form their own backup and can be handed over in the same way as tape. I'll agree the physical size and form is not as good as SxS - but being able to use a workflow that avoids immediate formatting after transfer makes me forgive a lot.

But when you're talking about the cost of microP2 that's not the case. The expense still means you can't have too many of them, still need to format soon after transfer - but Panasonic have now moved onto a less robust and far more fiddly physical form! For what!?!

Sam Lee · March 24th, 2013, 08:47 AM

$28K body + $4K for VF21KG view finder + ~$2K for AVC Class 200 option board. This camera may be a bit over $35K when everything's in place. Ouch! I like the LongG codec. But why would anybody in with their hard earned money spend $30K on a body (with 12-pole matrix adjustment and the best DSP ever to date) + $30-80K on 2/3" HD lenses and shoot w/ AVC Ultra Long G? That's more appropriate for HPX600 or the new replacement for the HPX250. Back in the SDX900 days, I rarely ever shoot on DVCPRO 25 on a DV50 recorder. Fast forward to 2011 w/ HPX-250. Virtually nothing less than AVC-I 100. LongG is a good backup alternative for that rare occasion where LongG is needed. HPX3100 with AVC-I 100 and couple of premium HD lenses are quite superb already. I don't see that there'll be a huge jump in quality fr AVC-I 100 to AVC Ultra Class 200. It's small that probably green screen type of work will take notice. But non-screen work, it's just very costly overall in terms of increase in storage. Not going to spend double the cost of archiving P2s w/ LTO-6 tape with a mere 2.5 Tb/cartridge. Will wait couple more years. When a single 4 Tb is less than $90/drive, it's the right time to get into Class 200.

I suspect the new triple MOS sensors will be better in natural, low light. The glory days of the SDX900's superior low light performance may be back w/ this model. Crossing my fingers. if this cam beats the HPX3100 in natural low light performance, it's to me worth an extra $10K over the triple CCDs model. 1080/60p is nice but I don't have the need for it. Sports & wildlife shooters will be all over this cam with the new 1080/60p capability.

Glen Vandermolen · March 28th, 2013, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Lee

That's more appropriate for HPX600 or the new replacement for the HPX250. .

Sam, what new replacement for the HPX250 are you referring to?

Sam Lee · March 29th, 2013, 01:25 AM

Like the 2/3" HPX3700, 3100, the HPX-250 is the 1/3" equivalent for under $5K. I can say this because I've personally shot and intercut them for over a year. I must say they do look very similar. Not exact but very similar when using certain gamma mode. No need to perform white shading on the 2/3". Straight out of the factory presets for the two! Previously it was the HVX200. HPX500 was the 2/3" equivalent.

Sooner or later the successor model to the HPX-250 & 255 will have something equivalent to the AJ-PX5000G such as LongG and/or Micro P2 card capability under $8K. I don't know but exact release or model but it's coming. Strictly on a speculative basis. Now with 1/3" palmcorder, LongG is more suitable and justifiable. Just a big waste shooting on a $70K (cam & lens) and using LongG codec.

Glen Vandermolen · March 29th, 2013, 09:31 AM

Ok, gotcha. Just speculation, but I agree with you. AVC/Ultra is going to be the new codec for Panasonic, and all the future broadcast cameras will have it, or be able to upgrade to it, like the HPX600. That, and the great little micro P2 cards.
I can see a new 250 - 260? - replacement coming out sometime soon. Next year, perhaps.

Eric Marin · April 3rd, 2013, 09:51 AM

On the same subject, I found something interesting on the next Micro P2 supporting codecs:

Sam Lee · April 3rd, 2013, 09:53 PM

Micro P2 is confusing. Should I continue invest in F series P2 or Micro P2? The biggest gripe w/ Micro P2: Max rec bitrate is @50 Mb/s via the Micro-P2 adaptor. Not really useful for equipment prior to 2013. Can't really shoot Micro P2 on HPX3100, 3700, HPX-250, or use Micro P2 on portable P2 decks@AVC-I 100. Kind of useless unless AVC-I 50 is acceptable for the producer. I'm all AVC-I 100, so Micro P2 has no immediate impact for a while. Micro P2 is great for new users who just entered the P2 market and can choose. But for those who already made substantial P2 investment prior to 2013, it's just hard to literally sell off all gear prior to 2013 and get 2013+ model.

If they keep on making P2 and Micro P2 on all future gear, the cost for the equipment should be several grand more to offset the cheaper Micro P2 media. So in a way there's not really a huge advantage for Micro P2 just yet. I see that a 128 Gb Micro P2 will be a nice cost to capacity ratio when AVC Ultra 200 is fully embraced by the mass.

The new 2/3" PX5000G is a whopping $35K to have a functional camcorder. Don't be misled by the $28K SRP. They have to list at the lowest price. Marketing gimmick. MOS sensors are cheaper than CCDs, but the price is still high regardless. Wonder if this has to do w/ Micro P2 + P2 and a combination of 1080/60p on the camcorder.

Gary Nattrass · April 4th, 2013, 01:02 AM

I actually wonder if there is anything special about the micro P2 cards as they just look like normal SD cards.

Ok an adaptor to use HC/SD cards would have been great three years ago but I think that most people will already have enough full size P2 cards for their needs.

New camera's may benefit from the use of them directly but if it is found that you can just use std cards as per the SXS adaptors I doubt if people will buy them.

I agree that the new P2 camera's are too expensive and they would have been better off pricing the HPX600 as a 2/3" replacement for the 301/371 and making the new camera the flagship do it all al the 3700 and the 3100 as the CCD alternative.

Eric Marin · April 4th, 2013, 03:18 AM

As microP2 supports 200 mbps and is around 200-300 euros/64GB, for me it's a good news. And the 50 mbps are only if you use regular other SD card with the adaptor. So you can record AVC Intra 50 witch is for me enough for most production. So micro P2 is exactly the same than P2 but lower price. .
For myself, microP2 will now push me to go to this kind of product line. Why now?
Because of the price of the P2 cards (even if it's getting lower with time) and first of all, the price of what you need to copy them faster than real time recording. I remember how long it was to put one 32Gb card with USB 2.0 on your computer. That's the only reasons I didn't buy an HPX250 before. So I don't feel confused with this announcement. But, I'd like Panasonic to go on 4K or to a new AF100 with AVC-Intra and Micro P2.. But I'm really not sure.
Regards.

Glen Vandermolen · April 4th, 2013, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Lee

Micro P2 is confusing. Should I continue invest in F series P2 or Micro P2? The biggest gripe w/ Micro P2: Max rec bitrate is @50 Mb/s via the Micro-P2 adaptor. Not really useful for equipment prior to 2013. Can't really shoot Micro P2 on HPX3100, 3700, HPX-250, or use Micro P2 on portable P2 decks@AVC-I 100. Kind of useless unless AVC-I 50 is acceptable for the producer. I'm all AVC-I 100, so Micro P2 has no immediate impact for a while. Micro P2 is great for new users who just entered the P2 market and can choose. But for those who already made substantial P2 investment prior to 2013, it's just hard to literally sell off all gear prior to 2013 and get 2013+ model.

If they keep on making P2 and Micro P2 on all future gear, the cost for the equipment should be several grand more to offset the cheaper Micro P2 media. So in a way there's not really a huge advantage for Micro P2 just yet. I see that a 128 Gb Micro P2 will be a nice cost to capacity ratio when AVC Ultra 200 is fully embraced by the mass.

Where did you hear the adapter can only record micro P2 at 50mbps? I understood it to mean the full bitrate. It's 50mbps maximum when you use an SD card instead. Please provide your source of info.

Edit: Okay, I found this on a Panasonic document about the micro P2 adapter using existing equipment:

• High-speed reading up to 1.0 Gbps.
• Guaranteed writing speed up to AVC-Intra100
(excluding 60p/50p).

So, it can do full AVC/Intra 100 on existing models.

http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/sales.../microp2_e.pdf

Glen Vandermolen · April 4th, 2013, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Nattrass

I actually wonder if there is anything special about the micro P2 cards as they just look like normal SD cards.

Ok an adaptor to use HC/SD cards would have been great three years ago but I think that most people will already have enough full size P2 cards for their needs.

New camera's may benefit from the use of them directly but if it is found that you can just use std cards as per the SXS adaptors I doubt if people will buy them.

I agree that the new P2 camera's are too expensive and they would have been better off pricing the HPX600 as a 2/3" replacement for the 301/371 and making the new camera the flagship do it all al the 3700 and the 3100 as the CCD alternative.

They are different. Watch the video above and you will see the back end has an extra row of contacts. And no SD card can write or download at the speed a micro P2 card can, not even close.

If you already have a lot of P2 cards, then you may not need the adapter, although the micro P2s can record and download much faster than existing P2 cards. I would definitely pick an adapter up. If you already have a P2 camera, why would you need an SxS card adapter?

The P2 shoulder mount cameras aren't much different in price than their predecessors, even though they do more.

March 22nd, 2013, 12:39 PM	#1
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	New P2 camera with AVC ultra More details here and it looks very interesting: Panasonic Announces 2/3-INCH, 3-Chip AJ-PX5000G AVC-ULTRA P2 HD Shoulder-Mount with MicroP2 Card Slots, AVC-LongG at DV Info Net __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

March 23rd, 2013, 07:01 AM	#2
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra Very nice. This must be the first 2/3" shoulder mount cam with 1080/60P. Unfortunately, my budget is more in line with the HPX600, 370 or 250.

March 23rd, 2013, 02:01 PM	#4
Sanjin Svajger Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Slovenia Posts: 356	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra What CMOS sensor in an 28k ENG body ?? Is the sensor global shutter?

March 23rd, 2013, 02:43 PM	#5
David Heath Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,699	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra The more I read that Press Release, the more I find myself thinking about what's not being said, rather than what is. Panasonic really made their name camera-wise with the Varicam, and much of their high-end following was down to it's vari-speed facilities. With the 3000 series, then whilst it brought true 1920x1080 to 2/3", there was disappointment about the limited slow motion offerings. So why no mention of varispeed capabilities here? Does that mean they aren't very good? And 1080p/60 in AVC-Intra 100 seems extremely odd to me. It's been long established that 60p does not need twice the bandwidth of 30p for equivalent compression quality - but that has always been assuming an inter-frame compression system. But AVC-Intra is (obviously) an intra-frame system. Which means that each and every frame gets allocated the same amount of data - for 1080p/25, each frame gets 4 Mb (0.5MB) - 100Mb every second divided amongst 25 frames. Go to 1080p/50 and that same 100Mb every second must now be distributed amongst 50 frames - so half as much data per frame, each frame now can only have 2Mb or only 0.25MB. I'd expect to see AVC-Intra 200 used to record 50/60p. That or compromise quality. In an intra-frame system, double the frame rate and you have to double the bitrate to preserve the per frame compression quality, all else equal. I'm also not sure what to make about micro-P2. With the SxS cameras, then I am quite a fan of using SDHC cards via an adaptor - in some circumstances, and assuming 35Mbs is acceptable. (See http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...ml#post1782861 and the last couple of posts in the same thread.) But the point is that it's to permit a different workflow. It's the cheapness of the cards that's important in such a case, it's comparable to tape and enables them to be treated as such, means that they can form their own backup and can be handed over in the same way as tape. I'll agree the physical size and form is not as good as SxS - but being able to use a workflow that avoids immediate formatting after transfer makes me forgive a lot. But when you're talking about the cost of microP2 that's not the case. The expense still means you can't have too many of them, still need to format soon after transfer - but Panasonic have now moved onto a less robust and far more fiddly physical form! For what!?!

March 24th, 2013, 08:47 AM	#6
Sam Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 49	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra $28K body + $4K for VF21KG view finder + ~$2K for AVC Class 200 option board. This camera may be a bit over $35K when everything's in place. Ouch! I like the LongG codec. But why would anybody in with their hard earned money spend $30K on a body (with 12-pole matrix adjustment and the best DSP ever to date) + $30-80K on 2/3" HD lenses and shoot w/ AVC Ultra Long G? That's more appropriate for HPX600 or the new replacement for the HPX250. Back in the SDX900 days, I rarely ever shoot on DVCPRO 25 on a DV50 recorder. Fast forward to 2011 w/ HPX-250. Virtually nothing less than AVC-I 100. LongG is a good backup alternative for that rare occasion where LongG is needed. HPX3100 with AVC-I 100 and couple of premium HD lenses are quite superb already. I don't see that there'll be a huge jump in quality fr AVC-I 100 to AVC Ultra Class 200. It's small that probably green screen type of work will take notice. But non-screen work, it's just very costly overall in terms of increase in storage. Not going to spend double the cost of archiving P2s w/ LTO-6 tape with a mere 2.5 Tb/cartridge. Will wait couple more years. When a single 4 Tb is less than $90/drive, it's the right time to get into Class 200. I suspect the new triple MOS sensors will be better in natural, low light. The glory days of the SDX900's superior low light performance may be back w/ this model. Crossing my fingers. if this cam beats the HPX3100 in natural low light performance, it's to me worth an extra $10K over the triple CCDs model. 1080/60p is nice but I don't have the need for it. Sports & wildlife shooters will be all over this cam with the new 1080/60p capability. Last edited by Sam Lee; March 25th, 2013 at 08:19 AM.

March 29th, 2013, 01:25 AM	#8
Sam Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 49	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra Like the 2/3" HPX3700, 3100, the HPX-250 is the 1/3" equivalent for under $5K. I can say this because I've personally shot and intercut them for over a year. I must say they do look very similar. Not exact but very similar when using certain gamma mode. No need to perform white shading on the 2/3". Straight out of the factory presets for the two! Previously it was the HVX200. HPX500 was the 2/3" equivalent. Sooner or later the successor model to the HPX-250 & 255 will have something equivalent to the AJ-PX5000G such as LongG and/or Micro P2 card capability under $8K. I don't know but exact release or model but it's coming. Strictly on a speculative basis. Now with 1/3" palmcorder, LongG is more suitable and justifiable. Just a big waste shooting on a $70K (cam & lens) and using LongG codec.

March 29th, 2013, 09:31 AM	#9
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra Ok, gotcha. Just speculation, but I agree with you. AVC/Ultra is going to be the new codec for Panasonic, and all the future broadcast cameras will have it, or be able to upgrade to it, like the HPX600. That, and the great little micro P2 cards. I can see a new 250 - 260? - replacement coming out sometime soon. Next year, perhaps.

April 3rd, 2013, 09:51 AM	#10
Eric Marin New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris Posts: 13	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra On the same subject, I found something interesting on the next Micro P2 supporting codecs: Panasonic - microP2 (English) - YouTube

April 3rd, 2013, 09:53 PM	#11
Sam Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 49	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra Micro P2 is confusing. Should I continue invest in F series P2 or Micro P2? The biggest gripe w/ Micro P2: Max rec bitrate is @50 Mb/s via the Micro-P2 adaptor. Not really useful for equipment prior to 2013. Can't really shoot Micro P2 on HPX3100, 3700, HPX-250, or use Micro P2 on portable P2 decks@AVC-I 100. Kind of useless unless AVC-I 50 is acceptable for the producer. I'm all AVC-I 100, so Micro P2 has no immediate impact for a while. Micro P2 is great for new users who just entered the P2 market and can choose. But for those who already made substantial P2 investment prior to 2013, it's just hard to literally sell off all gear prior to 2013 and get 2013+ model. If they keep on making P2 and Micro P2 on all future gear, the cost for the equipment should be several grand more to offset the cheaper Micro P2 media. So in a way there's not really a huge advantage for Micro P2 just yet. I see that a 128 Gb Micro P2 will be a nice cost to capacity ratio when AVC Ultra 200 is fully embraced by the mass. The new 2/3" PX5000G is a whopping $35K to have a functional camcorder. Don't be misled by the $28K SRP. They have to list at the lowest price. Marketing gimmick. MOS sensors are cheaper than CCDs, but the price is still high regardless. Wonder if this has to do w/ Micro P2 + P2 and a combination of 1080/60p on the camcorder. Last edited by Sam Lee; April 4th, 2013 at 12:01 AM.

April 4th, 2013, 01:02 AM	#12
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra I actually wonder if there is anything special about the micro P2 cards as they just look like normal SD cards. Ok an adaptor to use HC/SD cards would have been great three years ago but I think that most people will already have enough full size P2 cards for their needs. New camera's may benefit from the use of them directly but if it is found that you can just use std cards as per the SXS adaptors I doubt if people will buy them. I agree that the new P2 camera's are too expensive and they would have been better off pricing the HPX600 as a 2/3" replacement for the 301/371 and making the new camera the flagship do it all al the 3700 and the 3100 as the CCD alternative. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

April 4th, 2013, 03:18 AM	#13
Eric Marin New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris Posts: 13	Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra As microP2 supports 200 mbps and is around 200-300 euros/64GB, for me it's a good news. And the 50 mbps are only if you use regular other SD card with the adaptor. So you can record AVC Intra 50 witch is for me enough for most production. So micro P2 is exactly the same than P2 but lower price. . For myself, microP2 will now push me to go to this kind of product line. Why now? Because of the price of the P2 cards (even if it's getting lower with time) and first of all, the price of what you need to copy them faster than real time recording. I remember how long it was to put one 32Gb card with USB 2.0 on your computer. That's the only reasons I didn't buy an HPX250 before. So I don't feel confused with this announcement. But, I'd like Panasonic to go on 4K or to a new AF100 with AVC-Intra and Micro P2.. But I'm really not sure. Regards.