DVCPRO HD storage for masters at DVinfo.net

Edwin Hernandez · November 4th, 2005, 06:45 AM

Today I woke up a little scared about something I haven't thought about...
If don't own a DVCPRO HD deck, how will I archive my DVCPROHD masters?
Will 4.7 GB DVDs will give me just 40 seconds of 100 MBs video? or will we be able to store it in the same format that the P2 achive it so we can have like 4 minutes per 4GB in 1080i or 8 minutes in 720p?

How much time will we be able to put as data on a HD-DVD or Blue-Ray?

Will it make sense to master in HDV?
-EDWIN

Graeme Nattress · November 4th, 2005, 08:56 AM

HDV is not a master quality format, so I'd avoid that. Your calculation for amount of DVCproHD on DVD is wrong, you'll get about the same length as you'd get on a 4GB P2 card, which is between 4 and 10 minutes, depending on frame rate.

Graeme

Edwin Hernandez · November 4th, 2005, 09:17 AM

If I can get nearly 10 minutes of a 24p 720p recording on a single 4.7GB DVD, I'd be really satisfied.
-EDWIN

Graeme Nattress · November 4th, 2005, 09:57 AM

You can get 10 mins on a 4GB card, so you should be able to get 10mins on a 4.7GB DVD without any bother at all. I've got the feeling that for the moment, DVD is what I'll be using too.

Graeme

Jeff Kilgroe · November 4th, 2005, 10:32 AM

On a regular DVD disc (4.37 actual GB), you can count on 4.3GB for file system overhead. In terms of 100Mbps DVCProHD, that's 5.87 minutes of storage (1080i or 1080p24 or 720p60). For 720p24, which fits into a 40Mbps stream, that's 14.67 minutes of video storage on a DVD. DVCPro50 stored on DVD will be 11.74 minutes.

If you write to a dual-layer disc (DVD9), you can double all the above figures.

DVD may be the most cost-effective back-up media for many at first. IMO, DLT makes more sense in terms of capacity and if you will be storing a lot, then it will probably pay for itself in the long run. However, DVD is still a more reliable storage medium than yet another magnetic tape format, which DLT is. I would imagine that within 18 months, we will have Blu-Ray drives and 50GB RW discs and then backing up our DVCProHD100 clips will be of minor concern. A 50GB HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc will hold over an hour of 100Mbps video. Multiple layer writable discs should follow within a year or two and capacities are expected to top out at 250 to 500 GB.

Jeff Kilgroe · November 4th, 2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress

HDV is not a master quality format, so I'd avoid that.

Yep. And HDV is only a 25Mbps format, so it theoretically can only deliver 25% of the quality of DVCProHD. We'll have to wait for the HVX200 to see what it can do, but comparing DVCProHD shot with the Varicam to the current crop of HDV offerings, there's no contest... HDV sucks.

Kevin Shaw · November 4th, 2005, 10:43 AM

DVCProHD is 100 Megabits per second (at full data rate), not 100 Megabytes, so your calculation was off by a factor of 8. At 100 Mbps you should be able to fit up to 6 minutes of 1080i video on a 4.7 GB DVD, or 11 minutes on a dual-layer disc. With Toshiba HD-DVDs you'll get 20 minutes on a 15 GB single-layer disc; with Blu-ray it'll be 33 minutes on a 25 GB disc.

Don't forget to plan on making two copies of everything if you want to be safe about preserving your master data.

Robert Mann Z. · November 4th, 2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

However, DVD is still a more reliable storage medium than yet another magnetic tape format, which DLT is.

how did you come to this conclusion?

Kevin Shaw · November 4th, 2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

HDV is only a 25Mbps format, so it theoretically can only deliver 25% of the quality of DVCProHD.

It's not that simple because the codecs don't work the same way. Also note that DVCProHD has fewer recorded pixels per frame at 1080i resolution, so that's a trade-off in terms of image quality. Overall DVCProHD should yield better image quality, but nowhere near four times the perceived quality.

Quote:

We'll have to wait for the HVX200 to see what it can do

Exactly. And to see how final image quality compares when delivered to customers and viewed on typical HDTVs.

Quote:

comparing DVCProHD shot with the Varicam to the current crop of HDV offerings, there's no contest... HDV sucks.

That's funny considering the difference in camera cost, which obviously has bearing on the image quality beyond the difference in formats. We all know that DVCProHD is a more robust recording format, but HDV is surprisingly good for the price and will be the de facto standard for affordable HD production for the next few years.

http://hdvplus.net/page22/page22.html

Jeff Kilgroe · November 4th, 2005, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Mann Z.

how did you come to this conclusion?

Over 15 years of experience with both magnetic and optical media types. Not to mention, most every media manufacturer claims their optical products are more reliable and have a longer lifespan vs. their magnetic products. Don't get me wrong, magnetic media is still very robust, especially the more industrial types like DLT. However, it is still vulnerable to magnetic fields and the fact that tape components involve moving parts. Optical media in the form of CD-R/DVD-R has been shown to have a shelf life of over 15 years and manufacturers claim up to 100 years. Obviously, there's no way of proving that since 15 years is about as old as optical formats get. But you won't get that kind of claim for magnetic media and I know that I start seeing issues with old tape masters (DLT, DV, Travan and otherwise) after they have been around for 5 years or more. The very nature of magnetic tape allows for the magnetic polarization of the tape coating to bleed and crawl over time. Optical media has its flaws too... Heat, UV or sunlight or other radiation can still alter the writable film in these discs. But my experience reflects the current claims of most media manufacturers and I'll stick by it.

Steev Dinkins · November 4th, 2005, 02:35 PM

My plan is to use hot swap sata hard drives for everything from transfer and editing (RAID), to archival (one on-site, one off-site), until Blu-Ray (Preferred), or HD-DVD (I'll take what I can get) gets established as commonly as DVD-R/DVD+R.

If I keep everything in 720p 24fps, the file sizes won't be too obscene. About 24GB per hour of footage.

So that would be 16 hours of archival space on a 400GB hard drive that as of right now that market price is about $250.

My productions will primarily be short films and music videos, so final masters won't be huge. I think it might take awhile to fill a 400GB drive with 16 hours of final compelling engaging worthwhile high quality creations.

Now I know everyone has this retort - "What about archiving the master raw footage dude!?!?!" Well, it could be time to scrap the idea of keeping all that dead weight around. I almost *never* go back to the raw footage. After 15 years of audio and video recording, my library is so massive, I notice this one thing. What I value most over time is the finished product, so I can present it and share it with other people. Painters have it good that they don't leave junk behind. The work is made and displayed, with no working pieces left behind. And I think I'd like to adopt this same philosophy in this psycho digital media world.

If I did think it was crucial to keep raw source video and project files, I guess I gotta just buy more hard drives. :)

Also, think of this added benefit. If you need footage or masters from your archive, you can retrieve it FAST with hard drives, by cataloging everything with cataloging software. Although on the pricey side, this system blows tape away - far away.

Whew. Now, when is that damn HVX200 gonna arrive at my door?

steev
http://www.holyzoo.com

Damon Botsford · November 4th, 2005, 02:53 PM

Jeff,
I have a bunch of 8mm video tapes which are close to 12 years old. They contain priceless family footage that I don't want to risk losing. You think they have already started to degrade considerably? I've always kept them safe in a dry, airtight box. I don't have nearly enough drive space to digitize all of them right now. I'll probably have to wait for HD-DVD's. That brings up another issue... I wonder how vulnerable HD-DVD's will be for archiving? It appears that one of the formats has a protective case for the disk. I also wonder if the disk coating durability has improved. The 15 year shelf life you mentioned for regular DVD's is scary. I'm curious what it actually is in a protected environment. I amount of money I've spent to build my DVD movie collection makes me nauseous.

Damon Botsford · November 4th, 2005, 03:14 PM

Steev,

Your thread made me laugh. I'm so guilty of holding onto source footage that I haven't touched for years. I also have this irrational fear of removing archived footage from hard drives to only remain on CD's/DVD's. I've had amazing luck over the years with hard drive dependability (I just jinxed myself).
I'd love to have your attitude... finish the project and cut everything else loose. I think about deleting the source files, then things like color correction, re-editing, recompression pop in my head. I think I need therapy. Just can't let goooooooooooooooooo!

Steev Dinkins · November 4th, 2005, 04:40 PM

Damon, I am a major media packrat, so I totally know your pain! What I found this last year after consolidating CDs to DVDs, is that it wouldn't be the last time. And I hope it isn't the last time, because like other things in life, we need to purge, reorganize, and renew. This is leaning away from the topic, but it's related, because the HD revolution really brings up massive questions and problems regarding storage and archival. At NAB, it was something that had nearly everybody worried and scratching their heads, while companies were lighting up because that means big $$ to be made in storage and media management, etc.

Meanwhile...

I'm trying to think differently. :)

Finally, regarding archival, like your family footage. I obviously wouldn't say "just scrap it man!". I'd say, put it on redundant hard drives. :) One copy at home, one in an offsite secure location. If you were really paranoid, add this to the equation. Take big files and make segmented .dmg files or .zip files and burn those to redundant DVDs - one on-site, one off-site. Starts sounding like a full time job, don't it?

The segmented .dmg technique could be an option, with HVX200 footage, for the extremely patient.

steev
http://www.holyzoo.com

Dan Robinson · November 4th, 2005, 06:21 PM

Another video packrat here (raises hand). Archiving/backup is a big issue, especially with the advent of HD. I have a lot of useable stock video and If I lost all of my tapes to a fire or other catastrophe, it would be arguably as, if not more, devastating than losing all of my gear. Gear can be replaced, years of video work can't. DVDs are attractive as they are non-magnetic, but are also very sensitive to scratches.

At the end of each year I go through all of my tapes from that year (usually over 100) and capture in anything that I feel is worth hanging onto for future use. Most of the worthwhile material from the past year is already on the hard drives anyway so this isn't as daunting as it may seem. I then condense all of this into compact 'packages' and export. I take all that video and save it digitally in three places - two external hard drives and a third sent to a friend in another state.

Then, I export everything to tape four times, so I have four complete sets on tape (usually 4 sets of 6 to 8 tapes). I keep one set at the office, take one set to safe deposit at the bank, then take the other two to out-of-state family for storage.

That way (barring a nuclear holocaust) I should have at least *one* intact set of tapes left somewhere.

When DVD gets to the point where I can affordably fit all of my archives to just a few disks, then I'll make that jump. But for now the redundant tape and hard drive backups give me peace of mind.

Another option I've considered is to rent a deck once or twice a year to make master copies of anything valuable.

November 4th, 2005, 06:45 AM	#1
Edwin Hernandez Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Panama City, Panama Posts: 162	DVCPRO HD storage for masters Today I woke up a little scared about something I haven't thought about... If don't own a DVCPRO HD deck, how will I archive my DVCPROHD masters? Will 4.7 GB DVDs will give me just 40 seconds of 100 MBs video? or will we be able to store it in the same format that the P2 achive it so we can have like 4 minutes per 4GB in 1080i or 8 minutes in 720p? How much time will we be able to put as data on a HD-DVD or Blue-Ray? Will it make sense to master in HDV? -EDWIN

November 4th, 2005, 08:56 AM	#2
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	HDV is not a master quality format, so I'd avoid that. Your calculation for amount of DVCproHD on DVD is wrong, you'll get about the same length as you'd get on a 4GB P2 card, which is between 4 and 10 minutes, depending on frame rate. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

November 4th, 2005, 09:57 AM	#4
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	You can get 10 mins on a 4GB card, so you should be able to get 10mins on a 4.7GB DVD without any bother at all. I've got the feeling that for the moment, DVD is what I'll be using too. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

November 4th, 2005, 10:32 AM	#5
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	On a regular DVD disc (4.37 actual GB), you can count on 4.3GB for file system overhead. In terms of 100Mbps DVCProHD, that's 5.87 minutes of storage (1080i or 1080p24 or 720p60). For 720p24, which fits into a 40Mbps stream, that's 14.67 minutes of video storage on a DVD. DVCPro50 stored on DVD will be 11.74 minutes. If you write to a dual-layer disc (DVD9), you can double all the above figures. DVD may be the most cost-effective back-up media for many at first. IMO, DLT makes more sense in terms of capacity and if you will be storing a lot, then it will probably pay for itself in the long run. However, DVD is still a more reliable storage medium than yet another magnetic tape format, which DLT is. I would imagine that within 18 months, we will have Blu-Ray drives and 50GB RW discs and then backing up our DVCProHD100 clips will be of minor concern. A 50GB HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc will hold over an hour of 100Mbps video. Multiple layer writable discs should follow within a year or two and capacities are expected to top out at 250 to 500 GB. __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

November 4th, 2005, 09:17 AM	#3
Edwin Hernandez Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Panama City, Panama Posts: 162	If I can get nearly 10 minutes of a 24p 720p recording on a single 4.7GB DVD, I'd be really satisfied. -EDWIN

November 4th, 2005, 10:43 AM	#7
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	DVCProHD is 100 Megabits per second (at full data rate), not 100 Megabytes, so your calculation was off by a factor of 8. At 100 Mbps you should be able to fit up to 6 minutes of 1080i video on a 4.7 GB DVD, or 11 minutes on a dual-layer disc. With Toshiba HD-DVDs you'll get 20 minutes on a 15 GB single-layer disc; with Blu-ray it'll be 33 minutes on a 25 GB disc. Don't forget to plan on making two copies of everything if you want to be safe about preserving your master data.

November 4th, 2005, 02:35 PM	#11
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	My plan is to use hot swap sata hard drives for everything from transfer and editing (RAID), to archival (one on-site, one off-site), until Blu-Ray (Preferred), or HD-DVD (I'll take what I can get) gets established as commonly as DVD-R/DVD+R. If I keep everything in 720p 24fps, the file sizes won't be too obscene. About 24GB per hour of footage. So that would be 16 hours of archival space on a 400GB hard drive that as of right now that market price is about $250. My productions will primarily be short films and music videos, so final masters won't be huge. I think it might take awhile to fill a 400GB drive with 16 hours of final compelling engaging worthwhile high quality creations. Now I know everyone has this retort - "What about archiving the master raw footage dude!?!?!" Well, it could be time to scrap the idea of keeping all that dead weight around. I almost never go back to the raw footage. After 15 years of audio and video recording, my library is so massive, I notice this one thing. What I value most over time is the finished product, so I can present it and share it with other people. Painters have it good that they don't leave junk behind. The work is made and displayed, with no working pieces left behind. And I think I'd like to adopt this same philosophy in this psycho digital media world. If I did think it was crucial to keep raw source video and project files, I guess I gotta just buy more hard drives. :) Also, think of this added benefit. If you need footage or masters from your archive, you can retrieve it FAST with hard drives, by cataloging everything with cataloging software. Although on the pricey side, this system blows tape away - far away. Whew. Now, when is that damn HVX200 gonna arrive at my door? steev http://www.holyzoo.com

November 4th, 2005, 02:53 PM	#12
Damon Botsford Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 39	Jeff, I have a bunch of 8mm video tapes which are close to 12 years old. They contain priceless family footage that I don't want to risk losing. You think they have already started to degrade considerably? I've always kept them safe in a dry, airtight box. I don't have nearly enough drive space to digitize all of them right now. I'll probably have to wait for HD-DVD's. That brings up another issue... I wonder how vulnerable HD-DVD's will be for archiving? It appears that one of the formats has a protective case for the disk. I also wonder if the disk coating durability has improved. The 15 year shelf life you mentioned for regular DVD's is scary. I'm curious what it actually is in a protected environment. I amount of money I've spent to build my DVD movie collection makes me nauseous.

November 4th, 2005, 03:14 PM	#13
Damon Botsford Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 39	Steev, Your thread made me laugh. I'm so guilty of holding onto source footage that I haven't touched for years. I also have this irrational fear of removing archived footage from hard drives to only remain on CD's/DVD's. I've had amazing luck over the years with hard drive dependability (I just jinxed myself). I'd love to have your attitude... finish the project and cut everything else loose. I think about deleting the source files, then things like color correction, re-editing, recompression pop in my head. I think I need therapy. Just can't let goooooooooooooooooo!

November 4th, 2005, 04:40 PM	#14
Steev Dinkins Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 613	Damon, I am a major media packrat, so I totally know your pain! What I found this last year after consolidating CDs to DVDs, is that it wouldn't be the last time. And I hope it isn't the last time, because like other things in life, we need to purge, reorganize, and renew. This is leaning away from the topic, but it's related, because the HD revolution really brings up massive questions and problems regarding storage and archival. At NAB, it was something that had nearly everybody worried and scratching their heads, while companies were lighting up because that means big $$ to be made in storage and media management, etc. Meanwhile... I'm trying to think differently. :) Finally, regarding archival, like your family footage. I obviously wouldn't say "just scrap it man!". I'd say, put it on redundant hard drives. :) One copy at home, one in an offsite secure location. If you were really paranoid, add this to the equation. Take big files and make segmented .dmg files or .zip files and burn those to redundant DVDs - one on-site, one off-site. Starts sounding like a full time job, don't it? The segmented .dmg technique could be an option, with HVX200 footage, for the extremely patient. steev http://www.holyzoo.com

November 4th, 2005, 06:21 PM	#15
Dan Robinson Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Charleston, West Virginia Posts: 131	Another video packrat here (raises hand). Archiving/backup is a big issue, especially with the advent of HD. I have a lot of useable stock video and If I lost all of my tapes to a fire or other catastrophe, it would be arguably as, if not more, devastating than losing all of my gear. Gear can be replaced, years of video work can't. DVDs are attractive as they are non-magnetic, but are also very sensitive to scratches. At the end of each year I go through all of my tapes from that year (usually over 100) and capture in anything that I feel is worth hanging onto for future use. Most of the worthwhile material from the past year is already on the hard drives anyway so this isn't as daunting as it may seem. I then condense all of this into compact 'packages' and export. I take all that video and save it digitally in three places - two external hard drives and a third sent to a friend in another state. Then, I export everything to tape four times, so I have four complete sets on tape (usually 4 sets of 6 to 8 tapes). I keep one set at the office, take one set to safe deposit at the bank, then take the other two to out-of-state family for storage. That way (barring a nuclear holocaust) I should have at least one intact set of tapes left somewhere. When DVD gets to the point where I can affordably fit all of my archives to just a few disks, then I'll make that jump. But for now the redundant tape and hard drive backups give me peace of mind. Another option I've considered is to rent a deck once or twice a year to make master copies of anything valuable.