DVX vs HVX: sd and filmlook

John Trent · December 26th, 2005, 10:55 AM

As far as the internet goes, I've seen it mentioned at DVXuser, but after seeing the Sony Z1 downconverted for the Sundance channel show ICONOCLASTS, some friends and I have doubts. I've read downrezzing to DVDs looks the same, worse, or better. It's hard to get a straight answer and I've never really seen anybody post comparison pictures.

Would downconverting (to DVD) with the HVX be better with the 720p mode or the 1080p mode?

Steven Thomas · December 26th, 2005, 12:10 PM

John,

You need to check out the down-rezzed basketball footage on DVXUSER.
It's only 640x360, not even 480 stuff and it looks excellent for only 360.

The file is called :
720p-bball-half.mp4

http://www.stickypod.com/stickypod_u...bball-half.mp4

Steve

Mike Morrell · December 26th, 2005, 05:30 PM

What is the story behind this footage? How was it shot exactly? the first clips look like Progressive and they show a lot of judder(?). Was the slow motion from the HVX or was it done in post?

Steven Thomas · December 26th, 2005, 08:08 PM

Don't see a lot of judder here?

Yes, the slow-mo is from the HVX200.

I don't know the particulars short of what the file is called 720P at half, so 360P.

Mike Morrell · December 26th, 2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Don't see a lot of judder here?

I'd be hard pressed to watch a game on TV that looked like the first clips look. I'm not sure what you call it if it is not judder, but it is not smooth looking. Maybe it is a result of the conversion for the web?

Karl Holt · December 31st, 2005, 08:29 AM

Well it's early days but I took the 1080p WMV file posted on dvxuser, and also some jpgs from Kaku's 1080p footage; downsized all of these to an anamorphic SD PAL project using after effects to resize.

From these early tests, my own perception (and its purely an observation) is that Im seeing SD quality far superior to my DVX. It looks incredibly sharp, very clean. Even when converted to DV and spliced into a DVX project that Im curretly working on the difference is very noticable. I would say this method for me will produce much better images for SD output than I could dream of from my DVX.

Of course its not toally conclusive when Im comparing completely differently lits shots side by side. One of the most obvious things to me is that it really shows up the noise in my DVX footage when shown side by side. Everything from the downconverted HVX material looks very sharp and very clean, even after DV compression. I even burnt it to an anamorphic DVD and it outstripped my DVX for image clarity. As for the film look, the tonal responce looks better than my DVX, the colour reproduction looks better too. My only concern now is the lattitude, which I cannot judge until I have the cam in my hands.

I think of it this way. A film shown on TV looks far superior to SD video on TV. Downcoverting from a higher quality source always makes for a sharper SD image - the HVX seems to be no exception.

Who knows if shooting DV on the HVX will produce similar results to resizing. The HVX captures 1080p and then downsizes to SD internally. It really depends on the algorythm they are using; but in theory the native SD output could be as good as post processing if they get it right.

Tests will follow soon I'm sure, but Im really excited about the HVX even for SD delivery. My workflow at the moment will most probably be shoot and edit/composite in HD, then downconvert finally to SD for delivery.

John Trent · January 1st, 2006, 12:45 PM

Karl,

Thanks alot. I'm on dial-up and can't even see the footage everyone's talking about. So thanks for testing this out.

Interesting about the lack of noise. I was getting worried, as some say the noise is noticable.

Any idea how the 720p mode really compares to the 1080p mode in image quality. I've heard 720 is noisy, while the 1080 is cleaner but looks uprezzed.

I've wondered, when dealing with a 1/3" chip camera with a fixed prosumer lens, if the resolution between 720 and 1080 will even be seen.

Kevin Shaw · January 1st, 2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Trent

I've wondered, when dealing with a 1/3" chip camera with a fixed prosumer lens, if the resolution between 720 and 1080 will even be seen.

For what it's worth, when I take video from the Sony FX1 and encode it to Windows Media at both 1080p and 720p resolutions, I can see a definite difference in image quality between the two. This suggests that even the FX1 can capture more detail than 720p can easily display, so presumably the HVX200 should do likewise in 1080p.

Steven Thomas · January 1st, 2006, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Trent

Karl,
Interesting about the lack of noise. I was getting worried, as some say the noise is noticable.

Any idea how the 720p mode really compares to the 1080p mode in image quality. I've heard 720 is noisy, while the 1080 is cleaner but looks uprezzed.

Kaku has uploaded some night footage on his site.
It's the 1080 24P raw files for MAC. I have AVID HD, but I'm using a PC.

Download these files and see for yourself if it has video noise issue.
I believe they are set to 0dB gain.

Is there a way to convert these files to raw P2 files that I can use with AVID on the PC?

Man, I am PRAYING Sony jumps on this with Vegas.

If not, could someone please convert these to wmv using a high bit rate?

Thanks, Steve

December 26th, 2005, 05:30 PM	#18
Mike Morrell Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Norcross GA Posts: 119	Basketball footage What is the story behind this footage? How was it shot exactly? the first clips look like Progressive and they show a lot of judder(?). Was the slow motion from the HVX or was it done in post?

December 26th, 2005, 10:55 AM	#16
John Trent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Merrillville, IN Posts: 54	As far as the internet goes, I've seen it mentioned at DVXuser, but after seeing the Sony Z1 downconverted for the Sundance channel show ICONOCLASTS, some friends and I have doubts. I've read downrezzing to DVDs looks the same, worse, or better. It's hard to get a straight answer and I've never really seen anybody post comparison pictures. Would downconverting (to DVD) with the HVX be better with the 720p mode or the 1080p mode?

December 26th, 2005, 12:10 PM	#17
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	John, You need to check out the down-rezzed basketball footage on DVXUSER. It's only 640x360, not even 480 stuff and it looks excellent for only 360. The file is called : 720p-bball-half.mp4 http://www.stickypod.com/stickypod_u...bball-half.mp4 Steve

December 26th, 2005, 08:08 PM	#19
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Don't see a lot of judder here? Yes, the slow-mo is from the HVX200. I don't know the particulars short of what the file is called 720P at half, so 360P.

December 31st, 2005, 08:29 AM	#21
Karl Holt New Boot Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6	Well it's early days but I took the 1080p WMV file posted on dvxuser, and also some jpgs from Kaku's 1080p footage; downsized all of these to an anamorphic SD PAL project using after effects to resize. From these early tests, my own perception (and its purely an observation) is that Im seeing SD quality far superior to my DVX. It looks incredibly sharp, very clean. Even when converted to DV and spliced into a DVX project that Im curretly working on the difference is very noticable. I would say this method for me will produce much better images for SD output than I could dream of from my DVX. Of course its not toally conclusive when Im comparing completely differently lits shots side by side. One of the most obvious things to me is that it really shows up the noise in my DVX footage when shown side by side. Everything from the downconverted HVX material looks very sharp and very clean, even after DV compression. I even burnt it to an anamorphic DVD and it outstripped my DVX for image clarity. As for the film look, the tonal responce looks better than my DVX, the colour reproduction looks better too. My only concern now is the lattitude, which I cannot judge until I have the cam in my hands. I think of it this way. A film shown on TV looks far superior to SD video on TV. Downcoverting from a higher quality source always makes for a sharper SD image - the HVX seems to be no exception. Who knows if shooting DV on the HVX will produce similar results to resizing. The HVX captures 1080p and then downsizes to SD internally. It really depends on the algorythm they are using; but in theory the native SD output could be as good as post processing if they get it right. Tests will follow soon I'm sure, but Im really excited about the HVX even for SD delivery. My workflow at the moment will most probably be shoot and edit/composite in HD, then downconvert finally to SD for delivery.

January 1st, 2006, 12:45 PM	#22
John Trent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Merrillville, IN Posts: 54	Karl, Thanks alot. I'm on dial-up and can't even see the footage everyone's talking about. So thanks for testing this out. Interesting about the lack of noise. I was getting worried, as some say the noise is noticable. Any idea how the 720p mode really compares to the 1080p mode in image quality. I've heard 720 is noisy, while the 1080 is cleaner but looks uprezzed. I've wondered, when dealing with a 1/3" chip camera with a fixed prosumer lens, if the resolution between 720 and 1080 will even be seen.