Only detail I forgot to specify is that my laptop aint powerfull ennuf to play it... I guess it time I put my Dual Xeon 3.06ghz back in Windows so I can start playing with those files. (I originated got this box to edit DV video, but soon realised it was just premiere what processor intensive, moved to avid and I was back on my laptop.

If I can open the P2 file in avid, I'll make a WMV HD video. at 8Mbits/sec, should look very nice

Hi Kaku,

Sorry I missed your question. I got offline after my post. Most important to shoot clean @ 0db ; as well try the other gain settings for the same shots if possible.

Kaku can you do the same Panoramic city shot your did and stationary shot that you did with the H1. As well the pier/bay shots with the H1.

Very important to film some of those same shots that you got with the H1 so I and others can compare side by side footage from both cameras.

Again, Kaku thanks.

Planning to do the Makuhari panoramic shot maybe with Jemore/HC100 together. Hope this happens, so I can ride my bike there a bit too.

How many clips have you put up so far, I'm trying to keep track. 15 clips correct, minus the h.264 clip.

Something like that. Oh, also the raw archive of P2 content is up, but maybe not open to public yet.

I had shot some tonight. Some came out okay.
24p at 1/24 is good even in the night with little light and gain at zero. I will post more tomorrow.

Make sure that it's 24p at 1/48th. No 1/24th, unless for a test shot. 1/24th has way to much blur. Make sure to shoot at 1/48th when in 24p...

Ok now Im disapointed, it seem Avid Xpress PRO HD support up to DVCPRO 50, not 100 !!! Anyone got the DVCPRO HD content to load in avid ?

From what I was told...

...Only for MACS Marc. Avid Xproess Pro HD will not handle DVCPRO-HD of any kind in MAC. To cut DVCPRO-HD on a MAC, you are limited to Final Cut Pro. There are no other programs that work.

For PC, you can use Avid Xpress Pro HD to cut DVCPRO-HD footage, but only at a select few frame rates.
Xpress Pro HD does not support 1080p24 or have provisions for doing the pulldown either. it only cuts 1080i59.97 & 1080i50. If you want to cut 1080p24 footage from the HVX200 then you have to capture it with the $80k high priced Avid Adrenaline only. After you do that, you can finally bring into Xpress Pro HD and cut it.
Additionally it will not support any of the variable frame rates for 720p other then 24 and 60. This is good for the Varicam because it can shoot 720p24 or 720p23.976(dropframe). I am not sure if the HVX can shoot anything other then 720p23.976, so if you're 720p24 footage has dropdown in it(23.976) then it can't be captured with Avid Xpress Pro either. It must also be captured with Avid Adrenaline first and then finally brought over to Xpress Pro HD. This is all what I was told when investigating if I should switch from Vegas to Avid.

I suppose this is why nobody cuts in HDCAM or HDV or DVCPRO-HD using low cost NLE's. It's always cut in a proxy file. (usually DV) Ofcourse, if you have a high price NLE like Avid Adrenaline or Nitris ($80,000 & $110,000 repectively) then you just cut the stuff uncompressed and don't worry about anything. *smile*

Either way, PC owners are gonna have some serious troubles handling native DVCPRO-HD footage until these companies pan out the issues. In the mean time, make a DV proxy or cut it uncompressed if you have the $$$.

MAC users got it made!

- ShannonRawls.com

Mac users do have it made. When I first tried using the Vegas workaround with DVFilm Maker and the Avid codec and got 4fps playback, and then saw a lowly 1.33ghz G4 laptop playing full-screen, full-res, full-frame-rate HD, I was tempted to make the switch right then and there. Only thing that is really holding me back is the whole thing about whether Intel Mac laptops will be introduced at MacWorld in a week or two.

As for PC, Canopus has (from all reports I've heard) a rock-solid implementation.

I was unaware of the limitations you're describing for Avid on the PC; I'll ask Michael Phillips if he can weigh in and explain things further.

Yes, I think Canopus will capture & cut ALL FORMS of DVCPRO-HD no matter what you throw at it. But investigate that, I am not for sure, But I beleive it does. Only thing is....I don't know about using this Canopus EDIUS stuff. I know they are doing some HEAVY advertising and some SERIOUS R&D to position themselves to be up there with the big/known boys. But I mean, if I have to leave Vegas, then *shrugging shoulders* let me leave for a NLE people know about. One I can exchange files with easily.....like AVID. ya know?

And about them MAC users Barry.....You ain't neva lied brutha!
I went to the MAC store at The Grove the other day when me and wifey went to see King Kong.
Them G5's were might tempting!!
Not to mention a record producer buddy of mine has a full-on Pro-Tools HD studio and his MAC is pumping out records for him like a pied piper. It's amazing. Plus that program "SOUNDTRACK PRO" is just a god-send for those who want to score their own movies. (like me) Nothing compares to it for PC.

I was thinking today.....Maybe I should get a MAC??
That way I'll get Pro-Tools, FCP, Soundtrack and simply do all my "MEDIA STUFF" in my MAC system and do "BUSINESS STUFF" on my PC.

Then I realized, if I go DVCPRO-HD...it might make sense. But if I stay HDV, then MAC sucks like the rest of 'em. Especially with that "Capture now, Catch-up later and don't unplug your camera" method of ingesting HDV it uses now. CineForm has basically SAVED the PC's when it comes to HDV, thank goodness for them.

So what do I do as a PC user? ...... wait patiently. lol
If Sony Vegas don't do something fast...I may be a new G5 owner soon.

- ShannonRawls.com

Good...
It's not just me trying to get something decent out of AVID Xpress Pro HD (PC). No MAC :(

Man, I'm about this close to pulling my fcking hair out and not buying the HVX and buying the Canon XLH1 or JVC HD100 instead.

Will I be able to use Vegas with these cameras without going fcking nuts!

Sorry if I seem agitated,
Steve

Naw Steve,

Don't do that. Don't worry about the post production flow so much right now(dec '05). Choose the HVX-200 or the XL-H1 based on your PRODUCTION flow for next year (2006). That's what is important and where you put your money.

Post Production will catch up for HDV & DVCPRO-HD very soon for both cameras. So that's not so important right now.

Let your decision be based on your future Production flow.

Both cameras produce a remarkable picture. We all know that. Now pick your camera based on features & price. Should be easy for you.

Beleive it or not, my first project I'm doing with my XL-H1 is a new Aerobic Workout DVD Video being shot with 3 HD cameras in 1080i60 (or 30p if I can convince them). We shoot it next weekend on the 7th & 8th. I could care less about post production as I care about Production and which cameras work best for me in this situation right now.
The following weekend on the 14th & 15th I'm producing a Comedy Vignette for a friend of mine called "The Surrogate Photographer". It's about a door-to-door baby photographer who is allowed to screw this man's wife who is home waiting on a sperm donor that's late because he's caught in traffic. We'll be shooting that at 1080p24.
So you see.....it's all about PRODUCTION at this point. Let that be your determining factor. When you determine what you do, you'll chose a camera easily.

- ShannonRawls.com

Hey Barry - wait for a week. Stevo himself is getting up on stage - and he only does that when he's got something to wow with, and it better not be another freak'n iPod. ('less of course he's in full RDF mode - but it can't hurt to wait.)
The pb range is in dire need of a face lift - Yonah is officially released by Intel in the next day or so, just before MWSF. So yeah, hopefully dual core pb's.

The real issue is when Apple will release pro app software optimised for Intel and not running on top of Rosetta (emulated) on an Intel machine, most people are expecting a little bit of a performance hit in this case.
Hope that helps.

Thanks Shannon !

I was starting to slip.
I'm back now.

Steve

I totally agree with you here.

I was doing some 1/24 on purpose because I wanted to get the blur on the onboard shooting with my bike and it was very dark. Making it 1/24 helped to get what I wanted.

You're exactly where I am then.

I am thinking along the same lines -- I really, really want to stay in Vegas, but without support, I've got to look elsewhere. And while Canopus has some awfully deep pockets now (they were just bought by Thomson), they still have a tiny installed base vs. Avid and FCP.

I'm thinking Canopus, because I'm a "closed shop" -- I don't do editing for others. If I was an editor-for-hire, no question I'd go FCP or Avid. I'm really tempted by the FCP thing, but there's four main reasons I hesitate:

1) new Intel macs are coming, and rumors are that the Intel powerbooks might be announced less than two weeks from now. Do I really want to go dump a whole lot of money into an end-of-the-line product when the beginning of the future line is so close?

2) Not all that thrilled with the "ingest P2" part of FCP. I'd much rather it had native MXF support like Canopus does.

3) What if Vegas DOES come out with proper support? Man, I'd leap back on that like Michael Moore at Thanksgiving dinner. So would I really want to shell out $4,000 for a Mac and FCP Studio, when it might turn out to be a temporary/stopgap measure?

4) Serious Magic DV/HD Rack. If they announce it, no way could I live without it, and it'll be PC-only.

That's why I keep thinking about Canopus -- they have what is reported to be the best integration and best HVX support, and at least it doesn't require a platform change. If it's brilliant I could stick with it, and if it's not-so-brilliant, well, maybe it'll tide me over until Vegas gets around to releasing proper support. Or, if they're not going to, at least we'd know that too, instead of hanging in limbo.

With that said, I am still extraordinarily tempted to just jump ship and get the Apple anyway, since I know it works and editing HD on one of those is as seamless as editing DV has been.

I like Avid because they offer a FREE limited version for starters that does the job. Im having problem loading the MXF clip by Kaku in the full HD version too... I havent figured it out

From what I've heard, VelocityHD is comparable in handling native DVCPROHD just as the online Avid systems, including 1080 24p. And, if it is an option for one, a VelocityHD system with this support starts at $30,000, which looks like one of the better PC options now, but not affordable, software-based PC solutions. It is mainly hardware based, and marketed as an 'online' editor somewhat similar to, say, Chrome and Adrenaline.

I think the next logical step for NLE's is to create this affordable 1080 p, i and f support for both HDV and DVCProHD, and hopefully soon, with all these new cameras!

Barry-

"1) new Intel macs are coming, and rumors are that the Intel powerbooks might be announced less than two weeks from now. Do I really want to go dump a whole lot of money into an end-of-the-line product when the beginning of the future line is so close?

2) Not all that thrilled with the "ingest P2" part of FCP. I'd much rather it had native MXF support like Canopus does.

3) What if Vegas DOES come out with proper support? Man, I'd leap back on that like Michael Moore at Thanksgiving dinner. So would I really want to shell out $4,000 for a Mac and FCP Studio, when it might turn out to be a temporary/stopgap measure?

4) Serious Magic DV/HD Rack. If they announce it, no way could I live without it, and it'll be PC-only."


1. No you wouldn't - you'd wait for MWSF.
Worst case - say you did jump now because you had to for some reason <shrug> It's not like a PPC machine is going to be redundant in two years time.

2. fcp 5.04 has some weirdo ingest ? Not on my menu - that was a stop gap as best I can understand. 5.04 update pdf

3. What if Sony do - what if they don't ? Don't think anyone who has made the switch to fcp regards it as a temp stop gap.
Shoot - ask any PC Avid editor who leapt across. They absolutely hate fcp for first two weeks to a month. Then they come to appreciate it - fcp is non modal.

4. Well - you've still got yer Winbox/s for this scenario. You're not going to offload them immediately just because you bought a Mac.

Damn sure you know all of the above anyway, you must get to see and have a play on so many systems ... but for other PC users.

<flame suit on>

edit: Kaku - want to thank you again for your effort in getting all of these clips up for us. Really, man - absolutely fantastic.

Happy New Year to all.

I'd agree that the Mac platform as a whole appears to have better support for DVCProHD than most PC-based editing solutions, but don't be too quick to assume this is an all-or-nothing situation. Canopus in particular has got some interesting things going with their latest "Broadcast" version of Edius, which supports most SD and HD video formats on one timeline without pre-conversion to the project template -- resulting in some impressive flexibility for mixing and matching footage from different cameras. I haven't had a chance to test this for working with DVCProHD yet, but if they've got that handled as well as they've done HDV they could surprise a lot of people next year. You need some robust computer hardware to get the most out of Edius, but even with a basic dual-core processor it performs reasonably well.

Canopus has been responsible for keeping many people from jumping from PCs to Macs over the past few years, and with their latest tricks they just might keep us hanging on until Macs become PCs with an Apple logo on them...

Page 7, "import P2". That's the problem. It has to unwrap the MXF file and rewrap it as Quicktime .mov files. According to that PDF, that process is still there. In a native MXF system you wouldn't have to do that, you could just edit the files natively, instantly. It's the only real drawback that I see to the Apple implementation.

Don't want to get into an FCP vs. Vegas thing, but if Vegas had support, I would hands down choose it over FCP all day long, all night long, all week long, all month long. But it doesn't. And it may never. If it does, I greatly by far by an order of a million to one prefer its handling of 24p and format agnosticity over the Apple way. That's just me, that doesn't mean anything to anyone else, but it's just that much better for the way I currently work and the way I want to continue working.

Yep, thinking about that too. Not really any reason not to have 'em both. I'll probably take the plunge after I see what MacWorld brings.

viewing .mov
 

On a Mac,
I have downloaded the quicktime files and they want to open in Final Cut,
However, I have FC v4.5 or something
so this wont work in Final Cut

Nor do they work with the lastest Quicktime
It just takes me to the Apple plugin page

Sorry if this has been adressed - I have not seen it in this thread

Thanks,
J

Am I the only one seeing obvious interlacing in shots that are labeled as being 24P ... i.e. the first two in the list?

Me too. So, I want to know if it's my setup, something I'm doing wrong, or something the camera is doing wrong?

All of the 24p shots Kaku uploaded are in 1080 mode. 1080p24 mode on the HVX works like 24p mode on the DVX...it's 24 inside 60 fields. Aka "pulldown". You'll see a pattern of 3 progressive frames and 2 interlaced frames when this is the case.

There's also a 1080i24PA mode on the HVX, akin to PA mode on the DVX. That would be a pattern of 5 frames also, all being progressive but #5 being a repeat of #4.

Most of Kaku's 24P clips are straight 1080p24, so they have interlace in them. The one clip labeled 24PA is mislabeled, last I knew...it was really 60i.

He never posted any 720p24, which WOULD be what I think you're expecting...a 24fps file with only progressive frames.

..
 

i was able to see the clip after i install avid xpress pro.
the bambo clip was close to fx1 color...also the city clip

http://www.pisces.ath.cx/~test3/Towada_Oirase2.wmv

Nate,
Do you know what options would I use (in either FCP or CinemaTools) to reverse-telecine ?

Hi Barry - re: 2 above -
I didn't realise that any of the NLE's could do that ! Edit straight on the card, huh ... that's just plain cool.

What fantastic technologies we have a choice of.
Sheesh, it's hard to muddle through all of this without having to drop a bundle here and there.
I'm in New Zealand and I'm still trying to get some sense out of the local broadcasters as to when they might go hd. That word from them, for me, will influence the timing of purchases. Stony silence down here ...

Avid's FreeDV software doesn't support HD resolutions, MXF or DVCPROHD via QT. Sorry, but you actually need XPress to do it.

Not to mention the stripping and recompression of the audio channels! Conversion to QT doesn't leave the audio untouched. Even without the AVID DV100 CODEC installed (which doesn't work with QT anyway), you can load one of the FCP HD clips and play the audio.

I feel the same way. For now I will just keep waiting and see what unfolds. I will be very surprised if MacWorld doesn't show new notebooks with Pentium-M CPUs. But I won't switch to Mac... Makes no sense for me. I've priced out a new Mac system that would actually fit into my workflow and be comparable to my other newest workstations and it isn't worth it. I already have to buy a new NLE software, so I can get XPress Pro HD... Or I can get XPress Studio for about the same price of FCP Studio less the system to run it on. But if I buy the Mac, I may as well stay with my all PC workflow and move up to Avid's MC Adrenaline with full HD monitoring and whatnot... We'd be talking about $2500 more than the Mac solution, but I would get a whole lot more. To equal that with the Mac, I would also have to buy a Kona card and a few other add-ons and it still wouldn't quite be equal... And it would be a proprietary odd-ball amidst my all my other systems.

OTOH, a new Mac notebook equipped with FCP just for editing, may not be a bad deal. Probably set it up for $3500 or less. Hmmm...

Hi Jeff - I personally hope that apple doesn't use pentiumM chips - should be Yonah in the pb range. Then in the second half 2006 - merom, which I'm totally guessing here, will be about the time we'll see Intel optimised pro apps and a roll out of new Intel Power Macs with Conroe - Woodcrest for the xserves.

Maybe we'll see m series chips in the iBook range at MWSF.

Are there any nighttime clips yet?

I wouldn't buy a Mac notebook right now because that's where they're most hurting in terms of processing power until they switch over to Intel chips. Apple has apparently done a decent job of squeezing the most performance out of the aging G4 notebooks, but that's old technology by today's standards. If you're thinking of buying a notebook computer for video editing, wait for the dual-core PC (and possibly Apple) models due to ship in the next few months.

What is happening to the MXF file when it is being re-wrapped as a Quicktime? Is the data recompressed, leading to possible artifacts, or is it being adjusted for optimal editing in a QuickTime system without affecting the image and sound?

How long does it take and what are the potential problems? Do you end up with two files, the original and the FCP captured version? Is there any benefit to editing in native MFX? There are good reasons not to edit in native HDV.

Minor correction -- the repeat frame isn't progressive, it's actually a split frame between the one before it and the one after it. So if you're looking at a 24PA sequence on a computer in a 60i timeline, you would see interlacing on the duplicate frame. On a proper implementation of a 24p timeline, that duplicate frame will be dropped and you'll only ever see the original pure 24p sequence.

The video data is not touched, it stays exactly as it was, they just change the wrapper. I'm not aware of any changes to the audio.

However, it does break the association with the metadata. The MXF system lets you have all sorts of associated files and information about the clip including an icon that represents it, text memos that describe it, and all sorts of camera data and the serial number of the camera that shot the footage and the serial number of the card that it was recorded on, and just all sorts of stuff. On the bigger cameras there's even provision for an MPEG-4 low-rez proxy file, and GPS satellite positioning info. All of that stuff, and more, is tied to the file in the MXF structure.

Rewrapping the file as Quicktime discards all that info.

If you keep the MXF files as MXF then you can reference back to it and see the info, but that adds another step and makes media management your hassle, rather than the integrated MXF system which takes care of it for you.

It takes about "real time", or a minute per gig, depending on the speed of your computer and the speed of your drives. Now, truth be told, time isn't that much of a problem. It's an annoyance, but if you were going to be copying the files to your hard disk then it's six-of-one, half-dozen-of-another -- it takes about as long to copy the MXF's to your hard disk as it does to import/rewrap.

The major drawbacks are: what if you'd shot on a CinePorter or FireStore? Or if you offloaded the footage to a portable hard disk? With the Apple you'll still have to "import" the footage, spending time that you really shouldn't have to, seeing as the footage is already on a hard disk and could/should be edit-ready.

In a nutshell, Apple's implementation is not optimal. They really should be editing the native MXF files.

Yes.

Yes, it's faster (no import/conversion time needed) and you keep all the original metadata and all the file associations. And the P2 card is fast-fast-fast; it's fast enough to support editing six streams of HD straight from the card. It's two to three times faster than many/most hard disks.

Yes, but HDV isn't an editing codec, there are many good reasons not to edit in native HDV. DVCPRO-HD gives you a DV-style editing workflow. But whether you're editing from QT or from MXF, the data should be the same and the speed of editing should be the same. It's just that Apple makes you undergo a conversion step before you can get at the footage; Canopus and Avid don't make you wait, you can access it directly.

Kaku, can you shoot some footage in News gamma mode too! This will give a very broad latitude for grading that many are curious about.

Thanks Kaku!

Kaku, just FYI: for NEWS GAMMA, you'd need to be in VIDEO CAM mode, in either 60i or 60p. It took a little while to figure out how to get in News Gamma, so that's the steps I eventually figured out...

Barry,

news gamma can't be used in 24? And why kill news gamma at 24, Docs shot at 24 need the NG setting. If not then what is the best way to get the image flat with a wide latitude on the 200. So far the HVX200 is contrasty with current settings that I have seen...