Kaku Ito, any new HVX footage? at DVinfo.net

Sergio Perez · January 20th, 2006, 03:18 AM

Kaku, have you got any new HVX footage to share with us? How about comparison shots of both hvx and XL-h1? You must know every bell and whistle the camera has now, and you should be able to pull out the best of the camera! How about your impressions of it? Seems like you choose the HVX over the other hd cameras. After 2 or more weeks with it, are you happy? are you getting what you need? Any problems in post production?

You would certainly give me a big help by answering these questions. I'm on the verge of jumping to HD, and really would like to know the opinion of someone that choose the HVX over the xl...Thanks in advance!

Chris Hurd · January 20th, 2006, 08:44 AM

Kaku has done a tremendous service for us with the clips he has posted previously, however he does not "work" for DV Info Net. Kaku has a lot of things going on in his own life, and has his own business to attend. Think of Kaku not only as a valued DV Info Net member but also as an honored guest who we are fortunate to have here. His ability to drop in with the latest and newest gear, before it's even available in the western hemisphere, is Kaku's specialty. Now that the HVX is shipping, you can pretty much count on others to begin to come forward with comparison video and other sorts of interesting clips.

I think the decision for anyone to choose between the XL H1 and the HVX200 should be based on ergonomics of the camera (they are very different) and their respective processes for workflow (again very different). These two factors will have a much greater impact on how you actually use them, than any difference in the image. Both cameras offer a wide variety of ways to tweak the image anyway, so I'm not very sure as to what can be gained by comparing video clips (even though I will be involved with setting up our own forthcoming comparisons, the Texas Shootout that you may have heard us discuss here before, not long ago).

Sergio Perez · January 20th, 2006, 09:33 AM

Chris, I remember Kaku being very interested in the slow motion aspect of the camera. However, he didn't know that he should shoot with a higher shutter speed in order to achieve a perfect "slow motion" . This is understandable, since he only had the camera for 2 or 3 days. Now he as had time to try out and really pull the best from the camera, so he can really help us with information and new input on how the camera performs.

And of course I'm really looking forward to your texas shootout. Please shoot scenery and controled film like situations along the usual rez charts...Because, bottom line, at least for me, is what the picture looks that matter.

As for the workflow, this is indeed also a problem. I really like what I see from the XL-h1 camera, but I also can see the lack of 4:2:2 color sampling. This is evident because I shoot in Pal, and when I see the XL footage the 4:2:0 colorspace is immediately recognizable. Going HD-SDI is not an option both in portability and price, so The XL would only be a HDV option to me. I really didn't saw any HVX vs XL-h1 footage from the same subject shot at the same time except from a still shot of a crossover (Posted by Kaku, I presume) where the XL revelaed a White Sky and nice skin tones from a subject and the HVX presented a blue sky and nice skin tones- Wich revealed a far superior dinamic range. Now Chris, you must agree that we as professionals need to check out these differences in order to make a good business decision, right?

Once again, please do your best on the Shoot Out and come with the most comprehensive comparison shots possible! As Shannon Rawls said in a separate thread, we are pioneers, and you all are the front runners, showing us the way to greener pastures!

EDIT- Of course, I really forgot to thank the person I addressed this thread to: Kaku ! Thanks for all the clips and quick info you give to us! I can only speak for myself, but honestly I have to thank you for everything you share with us on these boards!

Lucia de Nieva · January 20th, 2006, 02:57 PM

Kaku already uploaded some interesting clips some days ago, including some night footage and new resolution charts, which indicate that resolution is significantly lower than with the Sony CMOS A1. You might want to check my other thread for that.

Kaku Ito · January 20th, 2006, 08:38 PM

I intentionaly made the shutter speed for the lower setting in my slomo clips because I prefer motion blur. When things are moving, you won't see it that clear anyway, and I said it before, I'm more naturalist than a special fx centered. "I didn't know..." is little overly misleading people. And I happened to shoot snow falling with different shutter speed (with overcranking) just for you guys here and I get this comment, that makes me very dissapointed. So, please don't assume anything without speaking to people in the future.

One thing is for sure, with shutter speed setting faster, I could not get enough brightness with this camera comparing to XLH1. If I limit myself with not adding gain, I run into problems trying to get enough clarity in dark area.

Thank you Chris and Lucia for following up. I really have to limit my computer time because I can't even focus my left eye in the mornig.

Lucia de Nieva · January 20th, 2006, 09:33 PM

Kaku, you really should not ruin yourself. Who else but you could give us the insights on the capabilities of next-generation technologies and the contemplative sides of Tokyo, all left-handed on private sightseeings? No joking here, I mean it. I suppose you already use a LCD instead of a CRT. So, if you still feel your eyes strained, you are spending undoubtely too much of the time you should be in the saddle in front of a screen. And never mind the rant. Only respect those respecting you.

Concerning the professional critics here, I would like to cite the ancient illustration of the pupil and the master. The pupil can be taught the way, but must walk with the own legs. Likewise, Kaku may provide the footage, but the information in it can only be seen by eyes with a brain behind them.

Ever heard of the dog who bites the hand feeding it?

Kaku Ito · January 20th, 2006, 10:06 PM

Inspite of what is said here, I did post an overcranked clips at my site at the shutter speed 1/250. From now on, I think I limit my computer time so I would post my findings only at my site.

Chris is always entitled to copy files from my site and use them here with the proper credits.

Steven Thomas · January 20th, 2006, 11:12 PM

Thanks kaku,
We've been very fortunate that you went out of your way to help us.

Steve

Kaku Ito · January 21st, 2006, 01:57 AM

You know if it wasn't for my eyes, I love to keep contributing, but it is too much pain. So, sorry folks, I have to cut down at least half of computing time. I will keep posing my findings at xtream.ne.jp. I fixed the toppage to be more friendly to English speaking people.

There was a news about iPod with earplugs damaing young people's hearing. I think I'm one of the first generation (I'm 44) that heavily working with multimedia and computers, I'm pretty sure that people in the similar situation understand the problems with eye sights.

Sergio Perez · January 25th, 2006, 10:14 PM

Kaku, I didn't had any intention to offend you with my comment. I didn't know it was an "artistic" choice, which, independently of what I think, is up to you.

Now don't be offended because of what some guy said that might have hurt your feelings:

"And I happened to shoot snow falling with different shutter speed (with overcranking) just for you guys here and I get this comment, that makes me very dissapointed. So, please don't assume anything without speaking to people in the future."

I still remember when I showed 25p to people: "Why is the picture strobing?", "It doesn't look natural"...While it did hurt, it got me even more energy to keep pushing forward and shoot more untill I could control the 25p footage in a way people could see the real aesthetic beauty of 25P. I also remember the first time I slowed down my 25P footage. It really looked like the way your shot did when the guy was falling from the bike. Maybe your slowdown was bellow the speed of the 24P frame rate (I don't know what this means, either).

"Concerning the professional critics here, I would like to cite the ancient illustration of the pupil and the master. The pupil can be taught the way, but must walk with the own legs. Likewise, Kaku may provide the footage, but the information in it can only be seen by eyes with a brain behind them."

The original title of this thread was:

"Kaku Ito, any new HVX footage?"

I really just wanted to see what more is the camera capable of, since I don't have the option of seeing and testing one over here- I believe many are in the same situation, too. And this is an expensive purchase decision, not only because of the camera, but for the entire editing workflow change it implies. Aren't we a community over here? Isn't this about sharing information, experience and contacts amongst professionals in the field?

This site is viewed from people over the World. People like Kaku Ito, Barry Green, Shannon Rawls, Michael Pappas, Charles Pappert ( I hope I spelled right! :) and many others are references for the broadcast video and film production in the world. There are forum members here from Singapore to New Zealand, from Portugal to New York., and many more. And all these people are here and share with each othere their own personal experiences, questions and doubts, and even their successes and failures... This is what makes this community so immensely informative and ressourceful. It was, and still is, in my opinion, the best ressource for Digital Video Production (and post production) on the internet.

"Ever heard of the dog who bites the hand feeding it?"

"The dog" was hungry and haven't eaten in days, weeks even, and haven't seen "the hand" for a long time over at home... He probably was affraid "The hand" was never coming back, so he started to bark to see if "The hand"could hear him... That's a long way from bitting, isn't it?... :)

Lucia de Nieva · January 26th, 2006, 12:17 AM

Sergio, no matter how friendly you meant it, please keep in mind that Kaku is not paid by the industry or by anyone else and does not gain any profits from his labours - not even the taxi fare - which are indeed tuned towards the interests of others. Did you ever realize how very rarely something is offered for free? Remember Juan's DVX@4:4:4 homebrew project? Initially, it was estimated around 50$. Now it is called Andromeda and found somewhere in the 3K$ range, and far from being an exception, this is quite typical. Sure, it is a lot of money to spend, but again, servicing the test footage is not Kaku's, but the respective companies' job. They do have servers somewhere. And why not giving a hand for a chance yourself? Or a paw? Seems a good husky would be welcomed with all the snow out there.

Due to the demand I converted some of the DVCPRO HD clips to make them usable for PC and Mac users with installed DVCPRO HD codec. They should work with all newer QT players - since version 6 or maybe even 5 - on any platform. Here's the brief, also found at Kaku's site below.

www.xtream.ne.jp

First things first. Best codec for evaluating the clips on systems without DVCPRO HD codecs installed is photo jpg, Works fine with the free QT player on PCs as well as on Macs. Very fast, accurate and small. 75% is the optimum, below the compression is visible, above there is practically no improvement. Comparisons were done at 800% magnification always.

Some interesting observations:

A few months ago I speculated the CCDs to be 720p native with 16:9 aspect ratio, thus 1280 to 720, as they are in the larger 2/3" models. This seems to be true. Kaku's clips show the highest detail resolution at 720p. 1080p is muddy, staircased and less sharp, "blown up". The odd thing is, same goes for DVCPRO50, although the codec has about twice the bandwidth. However, the cause for the latter probably is the algorithm in the firmware, not the CCD block. I also notified that Kaku's latest 60p demos have a much clearer appearance than the older 720p and 1080p recordings. Since Kaku certainly is improving with every new shot, but I doubt the electronics are, some videoscoping was done, and indeed, the snow series bearing only modest contrasts are always below 40%, while Kaku's previous work even surpasses 100% with values down to 0% spread evenly over the whole range.

So, the more light you have in the frame, the more distortion you have in the picture. Smaller highlights in particular stress the overall quality and cause significant v-smear or shallow the picture, resulting in a somehow videoish look. Still, the HVX has a better definition, better colours and less fringing than the HDV material or the H1 clip transcoded to DVCPRO HD. In addition, DVCPRO HD is no pain to work with on faster G4s. MiniMacs should be sufficient.

Barry Jenkins · January 26th, 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Perez

"Ever heard of the dog who bites the hand feeding it?"

"The dog" was hungry and haven't eaten in days, weeks even, and haven't seen "the hand" for a long time over at home... He probably was affraid "The hand" was never coming back, so he started to bark to see if "The hand"could hear him... That's a long way from bitting, isn't it?... :)

That, my friend, is one damn fine mea culpa!

Sergio Perez · January 26th, 2006, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucia de Nieva

And why not giving a hand for a chance yourself? Or a paw? Seems a good husky would be welcomed with all the snow out there.

.

What type of contribution do you want? I don't have access to servers. If you have a place to host some of my work I would be glad to share it with the community. Maybe I can post some of the Macau Grand Prix footage I've done...With the DVX.

Kaku Ito · January 26th, 2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Perez

What type of contribution do you want? I don't have access to servers. If you have a place to host some of my work I would be glad to share it with the community. Maybe I can post some of the Macau Grand Prix footage I've done...With the DVX.

Oh yeah, Sergio, I would like that!

Sergio Perez · January 26th, 2006, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

Oh yeah, Sergio, I would like that!

Kaku, send me an e-mail (just click in my name) for further talk in this matter. Thanks

January 20th, 2006, 03:18 AM	#1
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Kaku Ito, any new HVX footage? Kaku, have you got any new HVX footage to share with us? How about comparison shots of both hvx and XL-h1? You must know every bell and whistle the camera has now, and you should be able to pull out the best of the camera! How about your impressions of it? Seems like you choose the HVX over the other hd cameras. After 2 or more weeks with it, are you happy? are you getting what you need? Any problems in post production? You would certainly give me a big help by answering these questions. I'm on the verge of jumping to HD, and really would like to know the opinion of someone that choose the HVX over the xl...Thanks in advance! __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

January 20th, 2006, 08:44 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Kaku has done a tremendous service for us with the clips he has posted previously, however he does not "work" for DV Info Net. Kaku has a lot of things going on in his own life, and has his own business to attend. Think of Kaku not only as a valued DV Info Net member but also as an honored guest who we are fortunate to have here. His ability to drop in with the latest and newest gear, before it's even available in the western hemisphere, is Kaku's specialty. Now that the HVX is shipping, you can pretty much count on others to begin to come forward with comparison video and other sorts of interesting clips. I think the decision for anyone to choose between the XL H1 and the HVX200 should be based on ergonomics of the camera (they are very different) and their respective processes for workflow (again very different). These two factors will have a much greater impact on how you actually use them, than any difference in the image. Both cameras offer a wide variety of ways to tweak the image anyway, so I'm not very sure as to what can be gained by comparing video clips (even though I will be involved with setting up our own forthcoming comparisons, the Texas Shootout that you may have heard us discuss here before, not long ago). __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 20th, 2006, 09:33 AM	#3
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Chris, I remember Kaku being very interested in the slow motion aspect of the camera. However, he didn't know that he should shoot with a higher shutter speed in order to achieve a perfect "slow motion" . This is understandable, since he only had the camera for 2 or 3 days. Now he as had time to try out and really pull the best from the camera, so he can really help us with information and new input on how the camera performs. And of course I'm really looking forward to your texas shootout. Please shoot scenery and controled film like situations along the usual rez charts...Because, bottom line, at least for me, is what the picture looks that matter. As for the workflow, this is indeed also a problem. I really like what I see from the XL-h1 camera, but I also can see the lack of 4:2:2 color sampling. This is evident because I shoot in Pal, and when I see the XL footage the 4:2:0 colorspace is immediately recognizable. Going HD-SDI is not an option both in portability and price, so The XL would only be a HDV option to me. I really didn't saw any HVX vs XL-h1 footage from the same subject shot at the same time except from a still shot of a crossover (Posted by Kaku, I presume) where the XL revelaed a White Sky and nice skin tones from a subject and the HVX presented a blue sky and nice skin tones- Wich revealed a far superior dinamic range. Now Chris, you must agree that we as professionals need to check out these differences in order to make a good business decision, right? Once again, please do your best on the Shoot Out and come with the most comprehensive comparison shots possible! As Shannon Rawls said in a separate thread, we are pioneers, and you all are the front runners, showing us the way to greener pastures! EDIT- Of course, I really forgot to thank the person I addressed this thread to: Kaku ! Thanks for all the clips and quick info you give to us! I can only speak for myself, but honestly I have to thank you for everything you share with us on these boards! __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will. Last edited by Sergio Perez; January 20th, 2006 at 10:43 AM.

January 20th, 2006, 02:57 PM	#4
Lucia de Nieva Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany, Northern Europe Posts: 32	There is indeed. Kaku already uploaded some interesting clips some days ago, including some night footage and new resolution charts, which indicate that resolution is significantly lower than with the Sony CMOS A1. You might want to check my other thread for that.

January 20th, 2006, 09:33 PM	#6
Lucia de Nieva Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany, Northern Europe Posts: 32	Have a break. That's an order. Kaku, you really should not ruin yourself. Who else but you could give us the insights on the capabilities of next-generation technologies and the contemplative sides of Tokyo, all left-handed on private sightseeings? No joking here, I mean it. I suppose you already use a LCD instead of a CRT. So, if you still feel your eyes strained, you are spending undoubtely too much of the time you should be in the saddle in front of a screen. And never mind the rant. Only respect those respecting you. Concerning the professional critics here, I would like to cite the ancient illustration of the pupil and the master. The pupil can be taught the way, but must walk with the own legs. Likewise, Kaku may provide the footage, but the information in it can only be seen by eyes with a brain behind them. Ever heard of the dog who bites the hand feeding it? Last edited by Lucia de Nieva; January 21st, 2006 at 12:00 AM.

January 20th, 2006, 08:38 PM	#5
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	I intentionaly made the shutter speed for the lower setting in my slomo clips because I prefer motion blur. When things are moving, you won't see it that clear anyway, and I said it before, I'm more naturalist than a special fx centered. "I didn't know..." is little overly misleading people. And I happened to shoot snow falling with different shutter speed (with overcranking) just for you guys here and I get this comment, that makes me very dissapointed. So, please don't assume anything without speaking to people in the future. One thing is for sure, with shutter speed setting faster, I could not get enough brightness with this camera comparing to XLH1. If I limit myself with not adding gain, I run into problems trying to get enough clarity in dark area. Thank you Chris and Lucia for following up. I really have to limit my computer time because I can't even focus my left eye in the mornig.

January 20th, 2006, 10:06 PM	#7
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Inspite of what is said here, I did post an overcranked clips at my site at the shutter speed 1/250. From now on, I think I limit my computer time so I would post my findings only at my site. Chris is always entitled to copy files from my site and use them here with the proper credits.

January 20th, 2006, 11:12 PM	#8
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thanks kaku, We've been very fortunate that you went out of your way to help us. Steve

January 21st, 2006, 01:57 AM	#9
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	You know if it wasn't for my eyes, I love to keep contributing, but it is too much pain. So, sorry folks, I have to cut down at least half of computing time. I will keep posing my findings at xtream.ne.jp. I fixed the toppage to be more friendly to English speaking people. There was a news about iPod with earplugs damaing young people's hearing. I think I'm one of the first generation (I'm 44) that heavily working with multimedia and computers, I'm pretty sure that people in the similar situation understand the problems with eye sights.

January 25th, 2006, 10:14 PM	#10
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	Kaku, I didn't had any intention to offend you with my comment. I didn't know it was an "artistic" choice, which, independently of what I think, is up to you. Now don't be offended because of what some guy said that might have hurt your feelings: "And I happened to shoot snow falling with different shutter speed (with overcranking) just for you guys here and I get this comment, that makes me very dissapointed. So, please don't assume anything without speaking to people in the future." I still remember when I showed 25p to people: "Why is the picture strobing?", "It doesn't look natural"...While it did hurt, it got me even more energy to keep pushing forward and shoot more untill I could control the 25p footage in a way people could see the real aesthetic beauty of 25P. I also remember the first time I slowed down my 25P footage. It really looked like the way your shot did when the guy was falling from the bike. Maybe your slowdown was bellow the speed of the 24P frame rate (I don't know what this means, either). "Concerning the professional critics here, I would like to cite the ancient illustration of the pupil and the master. The pupil can be taught the way, but must walk with the own legs. Likewise, Kaku may provide the footage, but the information in it can only be seen by eyes with a brain behind them." The original title of this thread was: "Kaku Ito, any new HVX footage?" I really just wanted to see what more is the camera capable of, since I don't have the option of seeing and testing one over here- I believe many are in the same situation, too. And this is an expensive purchase decision, not only because of the camera, but for the entire editing workflow change it implies. Aren't we a community over here? Isn't this about sharing information, experience and contacts amongst professionals in the field? This site is viewed from people over the World. People like Kaku Ito, Barry Green, Shannon Rawls, Michael Pappas, Charles Pappert ( I hope I spelled right! :) and many others are references for the broadcast video and film production in the world. There are forum members here from Singapore to New Zealand, from Portugal to New York., and many more. And all these people are here and share with each othere their own personal experiences, questions and doubts, and even their successes and failures... This is what makes this community so immensely informative and ressourceful. It was, and still is, in my opinion, the best ressource for Digital Video Production (and post production) on the internet. "Ever heard of the dog who bites the hand feeding it?" "The dog" was hungry and haven't eaten in days, weeks even, and haven't seen "the hand" for a long time over at home... He probably was affraid "The hand" was never coming back, so he started to bark to see if "The hand"could hear him... That's a long way from bitting, isn't it?... :) __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will. Last edited by Sergio Perez; January 25th, 2006 at 10:45 PM.

January 26th, 2006, 12:17 AM	#11
Lucia de Nieva Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany, Northern Europe Posts: 32	More from the Master's hand: Footage converted for PC users Sergio, no matter how friendly you meant it, please keep in mind that Kaku is not paid by the industry or by anyone else and does not gain any profits from his labours - not even the taxi fare - which are indeed tuned towards the interests of others. Did you ever realize how very rarely something is offered for free? Remember Juan's DVX@4:4:4 homebrew project? Initially, it was estimated around 50$. Now it is called Andromeda and found somewhere in the 3K$ range, and far from being an exception, this is quite typical. Sure, it is a lot of money to spend, but again, servicing the test footage is not Kaku's, but the respective companies' job. They do have servers somewhere. And why not giving a hand for a chance yourself? Or a paw? Seems a good husky would be welcomed with all the snow out there. Due to the demand I converted some of the DVCPRO HD clips to make them usable for PC and Mac users with installed DVCPRO HD codec. They should work with all newer QT players - since version 6 or maybe even 5 - on any platform. Here's the brief, also found at Kaku's site below. www.xtream.ne.jp First things first. Best codec for evaluating the clips on systems without DVCPRO HD codecs installed is photo jpg, Works fine with the free QT player on PCs as well as on Macs. Very fast, accurate and small. 75% is the optimum, below the compression is visible, above there is practically no improvement. Comparisons were done at 800% magnification always. Some interesting observations: A few months ago I speculated the CCDs to be 720p native with 16:9 aspect ratio, thus 1280 to 720, as they are in the larger 2/3" models. This seems to be true. Kaku's clips show the highest detail resolution at 720p. 1080p is muddy, staircased and less sharp, "blown up". The odd thing is, same goes for DVCPRO50, although the codec has about twice the bandwidth. However, the cause for the latter probably is the algorithm in the firmware, not the CCD block. I also notified that Kaku's latest 60p demos have a much clearer appearance than the older 720p and 1080p recordings. Since Kaku certainly is improving with every new shot, but I doubt the electronics are, some videoscoping was done, and indeed, the snow series bearing only modest contrasts are always below 40%, while Kaku's previous work even surpasses 100% with values down to 0% spread evenly over the whole range. So, the more light you have in the frame, the more distortion you have in the picture. Smaller highlights in particular stress the overall quality and cause significant v-smear or shallow the picture, resulting in a somehow videoish look. Still, the HVX has a better definition, better colours and less fringing than the HDV material or the H1 clip transcoded to DVCPRO HD. In addition, DVCPRO HD is no pain to work with on faster G4s. MiniMacs should be sufficient.