HVX to Powerbook Capture Results

Robert Lane · February 12th, 2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Damkoehler

I just completed a day of interviews with Robert's setup ... mode 3, as it may have been called. I have a 17" PowerBook with 1 gig of RAM, a Lacie Firewire 800 PC card, a 500 GB OWC Firewire 800 RAID and, obviously, the HVX. I set up my system exactly how Robert suggested ...

I did three 30-45 minute interviews yesterday morning recording at 720/30 P ...

... and it worked PERFECTLY!

No dropped frames, no strange shutodwns, no errors.

I would stop and save from time to time but I had some captures that went for 20 minutes straight (not what I wanted to do but I simply forgot as I was also the interviewer.)

The footage just looked awesome and I haven't detected any drops or glitches.

Good news! Anybody want 3 4 GB P2 cards?! Just kidding :o)

Hans,

Glad it worked well for you!

In the coming weeks I'll be busy with my own production and won't be on the forum much, however if you ever need any help with your PB/FCP/HVX combo or any help Mac related, feel free to email me directly.

Hans Damkoehler · February 12th, 2006, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Hans,

Glad it worked well for you!

In the coming weeks I'll be busy with my own production and won't be on the forum much, however if you ever need any help with your PB/FCP/HVX combo or any help Mac related, feel free to email me directly.

Thanks for the helpful advice this past week. Good luck with your shoot! You may see an e-mail or two from me though!

PS - I put your name in to OWC as the referral ... maybe they'll buy you some ice cream or something! ;o)

Robert Lane · February 12th, 2006, 11:03 PM

Jerry,

Although the new MacBook Pro is noticeably faster than the current PB's even with 7200 rpm drives and lots of RAM, the MacBook "Pro" suffers from 3 things that would prevent it from being a stable capture-only platform:

1) It has only 1 FW400 port and until somebody makes an ExpressCard/34 FW adapter card you have no method for plugging in the camera AND sending out to an external drive at the same time. The MacBook Pro CPU is faster, but the FW bus has the same spec as either the PB or G5 and therefore comes with the same limitations and throughput. And if you were to put an adapter in the single port and split it into 2 or more and tried to connect camera and external drive your results would be far worse than "Mode 2" since you're not even using 2 different ports - the capture hiccup would be severe or worse just not work at all.

2) Even though the processing power is fast on the CPU you are still limited to the maximum throughput on the internal drive. Even at 7200rpm you're still asking one drive to handle the tasks of the OS and FCP plus the added headroom of capturing full DVCPRO-HD content all at the same time. It may happen less but I would expect you would still get dropouts and sound clicks. (I should have noted that in all MODE tests I had installed a 7200 rpm drive in the PB and those were the results we achieved). Not to mention that the largest 7200rpm drive I've seen (that still specs out well) is 100GB. After you install the OS, FCP and other software you'll end up with less than 80GB of usable space, not enough for a full-day of shooting, especially when the drive starts to fill up and performance drops off drastically.

3) Absolutely nobody except the Apple engineers have tested FCP in the Rosetta environment. Like any new hardware/software combination, expect the Universal version of FCP and the MacBook Pro to have some quirky bugs and maybe even some deal-killer issues initially. I wouldn't trust this combination to be stable and reliable for at least 4-6 months AFTER the Universal versions of software hit the streets and Apple has had ample time to release bug fixes and software updates. Or course you could be one of the few to try it out initially and be an unpaid beta-tester for Apple, but that's not an option if you need a stable platform to do paid gigs with.

Barry,

In theory you could put a HDD where the optical/Superdrive lives however the problem wouldn't be where or how to put the second HDD, it's that the CD/DVD drive is the 40-wire ATA-type, not the 80-wire EIDE, and ATA has a relatively small data pipleline compared to EIDE or even FW. So while you could custom rig a PB to fit a second drive there would be no place to physically plug it in and or take full advantage of the HDD throughput. It would require a completely redesigned motherboard with a second EIDE connector.

Interestingly enough IBM did make a laptop years ago that had 2 internal HDD's but that was before the days of ATA-2 or EIDE drives were around.

Lastly as I mentioned in another thread, I still consider it a risky proposition to use any device - not specifically dampened for vibration or mild hits - for any kind of motion work. All it would take is to miss a step, fall or even hit something hard enough and you'd lose everything on the internal drive. And yes, there are methods of forensic data recovery that could reclaim the data from the damaged drive, but unless you're willing to spend $2-8k for the job, it's not worth the risk.

To date, the only HDD device that I'm aware of designed for in-the-field motion video work is the Cineporter. They specifically talk about motion dampening on the website - how well it works is another story since it too, like the Universal versions of Apple software, is still untested by consumers or third parties.

Robert Lane · February 12th, 2006, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Damkoehler

Thanks for the helpful advice this past week. Good luck with your shoot! You may see an e-mail or two from me though!

PS - I put your name in to OWC as the referral ... maybe they'll buy you some ice cream or something! ;o)

Yeah, I may need to borrow that pitching wedge of yours when I need to smash something! (laughs)

Federico Martini Crotti · February 13th, 2006, 10:28 AM

Robert, Hans,
have you guys not tried higher resolutions in this setup because you just didn't need them or because you consider them impossible to begin with?
thanks.

Robert Lane · February 13th, 2006, 11:29 AM

Federico,

Follow my guide on how to properly setup your PowerBook and you shouldn't have any problems capturing the higher res rates:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=59680

Federico Martini Crotti · February 13th, 2006, 01:25 PM

Thank you.
And another question arises, did you think of trying to this same thing with a Canon H1 and it's SDI out?

Robert Lane · February 13th, 2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico Martini Crotti

Thank you.
And another question arises, did you think of trying to this same thing with a Canon H1 and it's SDI out?

No. Our workflow is specifically designed around DVCPRO-HD, not HDV.

Greg Boston · February 13th, 2006, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Mode 2 - Capture to an external drive using both on-board FW ports; HVX into FW400 port, External drive out from the FW800 port.

Mode 2 was better - and worse. The capture had a few, really nasty dropouts where the viewer screen was full of bad data blocks, sound clicks and frame stutter. However the clip would play from the timeline, dropouts, clicks and all.

The other unmentioned factor at work here is that by putting both devices on the same firewire bus, the bus operates at the speed of the slowest device. So in essence, you had two devices operating at FW400.

As you noticed, putting in another FW bus via card adapter yielded better because then that device could operate independently of the other at FW800.

-gb-

Robert Lane · February 13th, 2006, 04:55 PM

Greg,

Actually that characteristic was covered in my previous post about setting up the PowerBook.

And in actuality, having the camera and drive connected to the same FW bus means that the drive is being brought down to FW100 speeds since the camera is a FW100 device, not FW400.

Federico Martini Crotti · February 13th, 2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

No. Our workflow is specifically designed around DVCPRO-HD, not HDV.

Yes, but since the Canon has SDI uncompressed out, if a PCMCIA card of some sort could take it in and then FCP could write it down in DVCPRO-HD or better codec, wouldn't it become a considerable option?

Robert Lane · February 13th, 2006, 11:21 PM

Federico,

We didn't and wouldn't consider the H1 because:

- The H1 color output regardless of output format is not nearly as gorgeous as the HVX.

- The H1 doesn't have the P2 workflow options.

- What you're proposing to do would require lugging at the minimum, a G5 Tower, KONA I/O breakout/converter box and a KONA 2/LH card in the G5 to handle uncompressed video via FW, PLUS the added SDI interface into the G5 such as the Miranda, which by itself is not a low-cost piece of equipment. Why bother with the added expense and required additional hardware to down-convert H1 uncompressed clips to any DVCPRO codec when you can natively shoot in that codec to begin with using the HVX?

If you're sold on the H1 SDI out idea as a workflow then you'd better be prepared for a huge investment of mobile hardware, far above what would be required for any workflow using the HVX. And in the end, you won't end up with footage that looks better, you'll just have a very expensive and hardware-intensive workflow.

Federico Martini Crotti · February 14th, 2006, 07:14 AM

These seem like pretty good reasons. I totally agree with them, it's just hard to let go of the Canon lens, having used Canon for many years. First time I hear about the better color output by the HVX. Thanks Robert, very informative.

Robert Lane · February 14th, 2006, 11:29 AM

I understand your reluctance to stop using the XL series; I shot my first DV demo using the XL2-s but after my first direct comparison between the DVX100A/B and XL2 footage I was convinced of what I always felt about Canon color output: it's weak and bland, at best.

Check out www.adamwilt.com; there are direct comparisons between the DV/HDV/DVCPRO color. You'll see firsthand why HDV is inferior to the DVCPRO color space. Additionally, there is a 3 camera shootout (I can't find the web-link anymore) between the DVX100B, XL2 and the FX1(?) - that too will show you how drastically different Canon color is from others.

As I always say, color is far more important than resolution whether it's digi-stills or video and the closer you can get to chrome/film-like chroma out of the camera, the more gorgeous your footage will be.

So far, the HVX is holding true to the DVX reputation with respect to color output: It's flat-out amazing and from our controlled (and non-controlled) testing it's superior to the Z1, HD100 and H1 by far.

The SDI out from the H1 is a cool feature, but the reality of actually using it isn't either cost effective or easy to deal with. And if you have a project that demands your out-of-the-camera footage be uncompressed then you'd need to have a budget that would allow for a Grass Valley Viper or FW900 and REALLY have an output that would truly benefit from an uncompressed workflow.

Barry Werger · February 15th, 2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

And in actuality, having the camera and drive connected to the same FW bus means that the drive is being brought down to FW100 speeds since the camera is a FW100 device, not FW400.

Actually, I highly doubt the HVX is a FW100 device, since its HD bitrate is 100Mbps without audio...

P.S., any news on mode 3B?

February 12th, 2006, 11:03 PM	#18
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	Jerry, Although the new MacBook Pro is noticeably faster than the current PB's even with 7200 rpm drives and lots of RAM, the MacBook "Pro" suffers from 3 things that would prevent it from being a stable capture-only platform: 1) It has only 1 FW400 port and until somebody makes an ExpressCard/34 FW adapter card you have no method for plugging in the camera AND sending out to an external drive at the same time. The MacBook Pro CPU is faster, but the FW bus has the same spec as either the PB or G5 and therefore comes with the same limitations and throughput. And if you were to put an adapter in the single port and split it into 2 or more and tried to connect camera and external drive your results would be far worse than "Mode 2" since you're not even using 2 different ports - the capture hiccup would be severe or worse just not work at all. 2) Even though the processing power is fast on the CPU you are still limited to the maximum throughput on the internal drive. Even at 7200rpm you're still asking one drive to handle the tasks of the OS and FCP plus the added headroom of capturing full DVCPRO-HD content all at the same time. It may happen less but I would expect you would still get dropouts and sound clicks. (I should have noted that in all MODE tests I had installed a 7200 rpm drive in the PB and those were the results we achieved). Not to mention that the largest 7200rpm drive I've seen (that still specs out well) is 100GB. After you install the OS, FCP and other software you'll end up with less than 80GB of usable space, not enough for a full-day of shooting, especially when the drive starts to fill up and performance drops off drastically. 3) Absolutely nobody except the Apple engineers have tested FCP in the Rosetta environment. Like any new hardware/software combination, expect the Universal version of FCP and the MacBook Pro to have some quirky bugs and maybe even some deal-killer issues initially. I wouldn't trust this combination to be stable and reliable for at least 4-6 months AFTER the Universal versions of software hit the streets and Apple has had ample time to release bug fixes and software updates. Or course you could be one of the few to try it out initially and be an unpaid beta-tester for Apple, but that's not an option if you need a stable platform to do paid gigs with. Barry, In theory you could put a HDD where the optical/Superdrive lives however the problem wouldn't be where or how to put the second HDD, it's that the CD/DVD drive is the 40-wire ATA-type, not the 80-wire EIDE, and ATA has a relatively small data pipleline compared to EIDE or even FW. So while you could custom rig a PB to fit a second drive there would be no place to physically plug it in and or take full advantage of the HDD throughput. It would require a completely redesigned motherboard with a second EIDE connector. Interestingly enough IBM did make a laptop years ago that had 2 internal HDD's but that was before the days of ATA-2 or EIDE drives were around. Lastly as I mentioned in another thread, I still consider it a risky proposition to use any device - not specifically dampened for vibration or mild hits - for any kind of motion work. All it would take is to miss a step, fall or even hit something hard enough and you'd lose everything on the internal drive. And yes, there are methods of forensic data recovery that could reclaim the data from the damaged drive, but unless you're willing to spend $2-8k for the job, it's not worth the risk. To date, the only HDD device that I'm aware of designed for in-the-field motion video work is the Cineporter. They specifically talk about motion dampening on the website - how well it works is another story since it too, like the Universal versions of Apple software, is still untested by consumers or third parties. __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV Last edited by Robert Lane; February 13th, 2006 at 09:28 AM.

February 13th, 2006, 11:29 AM	#21
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	Federico, Follow my guide on how to properly setup your PowerBook and you shouldn't have any problems capturing the higher res rates: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=59680 __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV

February 13th, 2006, 04:55 PM	#25
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	Greg, Actually that characteristic was covered in my previous post about setting up the PowerBook. And in actuality, having the camera and drive connected to the same FW bus means that the drive is being brought down to FW100 speeds since the camera is a FW100 device, not FW400. __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV

February 13th, 2006, 11:21 PM	#27
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	Federico, We didn't and wouldn't consider the H1 because: - The H1 color output regardless of output format is not nearly as gorgeous as the HVX. - The H1 doesn't have the P2 workflow options. - What you're proposing to do would require lugging at the minimum, a G5 Tower, KONA I/O breakout/converter box and a KONA 2/LH card in the G5 to handle uncompressed video via FW, PLUS the added SDI interface into the G5 such as the Miranda, which by itself is not a low-cost piece of equipment. Why bother with the added expense and required additional hardware to down-convert H1 uncompressed clips to any DVCPRO codec when you can natively shoot in that codec to begin with using the HVX? If you're sold on the H1 SDI out idea as a workflow then you'd better be prepared for a huge investment of mobile hardware, far above what would be required for any workflow using the HVX. And in the end, you won't end up with footage that looks better, you'll just have a very expensive and hardware-intensive workflow. __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV

February 14th, 2006, 11:29 AM	#29
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	I understand your reluctance to stop using the XL series; I shot my first DV demo using the XL2-s but after my first direct comparison between the DVX100A/B and XL2 footage I was convinced of what I always felt about Canon color output: it's weak and bland, at best. Check out www.adamwilt.com; there are direct comparisons between the DV/HDV/DVCPRO color. You'll see firsthand why HDV is inferior to the DVCPRO color space. Additionally, there is a 3 camera shootout (I can't find the web-link anymore) between the DVX100B, XL2 and the FX1(?) - that too will show you how drastically different Canon color is from others. As I always say, color is far more important than resolution whether it's digi-stills or video and the closer you can get to chrome/film-like chroma out of the camera, the more gorgeous your footage will be. So far, the HVX is holding true to the DVX reputation with respect to color output: It's flat-out amazing and from our controlled (and non-controlled) testing it's superior to the Z1, HD100 and H1 by far. The SDI out from the H1 is a cool feature, but the reality of actually using it isn't either cost effective or easy to deal with. And if you have a project that demands your out-of-the-camera footage be uncompressed then you'd need to have a budget that would allow for a Grass Valley Viper or FW900 and REALLY have an output that would truly benefit from an uncompressed workflow. __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV

February 13th, 2006, 10:28 AM	#20
Federico Martini Crotti Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Uruguay Posts: 57	Robert, Hans, have you guys not tried higher resolutions in this setup because you just didn't need them or because you consider them impossible to begin with? thanks.

February 13th, 2006, 01:25 PM	#22
Federico Martini Crotti Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Uruguay Posts: 57	Thank you. And another question arises, did you think of trying to this same thing with a Canon H1 and it's SDI out?

February 14th, 2006, 07:14 AM	#28
Federico Martini Crotti Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Uruguay Posts: 57	These seem like pretty good reasons. I totally agree with them, it's just hard to let go of the Canon lens, having used Canon for many years. First time I hear about the better color output by the HVX. Thanks Robert, very informative.