Sure Fire Solution to HVX-200 Macroblock Problem

Hans ter Lingen · March 12th, 2006, 03:45 AM

What happens if you transfer the recorded footage strait from the P2 card to a DVD and play the DVD back on the various type of displays?? (is this technical possible anyway????).

Dan Brockett · March 12th, 2006, 11:36 AM

Hi Hans:

I am afraid that this is not possible without first capturing and encoding the material from the P2 card.

Dan

Jay Morris · March 12th, 2006, 03:35 PM

How did you get your P2 footage into the Nitris? We have one at work, too. As far as I know, the nitris does not have P2 import capabilities (no firewire capture, too).

Also, what project settings did you have to use for the nle to play back 720 24pn?

Thanks!

Dan Brockett · March 12th, 2006, 04:41 PM

Hi Jay:

All you need to do is import the .mxf files themselves and set up an appropriate frame rate and raster size.

As I mentioned, I find it supremely disappointing that this $90,000.00 AVID cannot then play these files correctly, they stutter quite badly until you re-render them with the DNxHD codec, then they playback fine.

While I really like some of the capabilities of this AVID like the motion tracking and color correction, some of the limitations are amazing, consideriing that Final Cut, for a mere $1,200.00 with the addition of a $3,000.00 board (Kona 3) can do HD upconversion, can playback all flavors of DVCProHD with no stuttering, etc. No wonder AVID is only concentrating on the high-end, FCP is MUCH better on the low end. We only have the Nitris because we have 8 off-line bays, all AVID and I could not convince our owner that for the same price as our Nitris, I could have built him 8 more FCP on-line HD bays, too many of the AVID-only editors were terrified of switching to FCP also.

Ah well, the Nitris is a sweet machine overall, but it does have too many limitations for it's considerable price IMHO.

Best,

Dan

Michael Goode · March 14th, 2006, 01:44 PM

Is it possible to playback the footage w/o the microblock issue from FCP back to the camera, into the HDTV? Or is a separate card and connection to the TV from the NLE needed?

Damien Molineaux · March 23rd, 2006, 10:09 AM

Hi,
My understanding is that the Dell 2405 doesn't handle HD via its component inputs, am I mistaken ? Isn't your Dell just upconverting an SD signal, which might explain the macroblocks ?

Cheers

Chuck Spaulding · March 23rd, 2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien Molineaux

Hi,
My understanding is that the Dell 2405 doesn't handle HD via its component inputs, am I mistaken ? Isn't your Dell just upconverting an SD signal, which might explain the macroblocks ?

Cheers

You should check out the specs on Dell.com. This monitor is 1920x1200 so it can display an HD image 1 for 1 and doesn't need to scale anything. But I am in no way an engineer or monitor expert but it plays the component out from the JVC HD100, Sony FX1 and HC1 just fine.

Dan Brockett · March 23rd, 2006, 06:26 PM

Hi:

The Dell most definitely DOES display full HD signals...1:1.

BUT, it is noisy, has very limited adjustments and totally amplifies the HVX-200 macroblock issue.

It's probably the cheapest way to display HD signal but you get what you pay for. Personally, while I am enjoying the Dell, I am saving for the Panasonic 17" that everyone is raving about.

Best,

Dan

Sergio Perez · March 23rd, 2006, 09:01 PM

How about footage edited in a NLE, than exported back to P2? Do you still get the noisy footage when you display it?

This is because most of us will use the HVX's component outs to transcode to other systems, like BetaSP, Beta Digital, even DVCPROHD Tape, so I would assume the component outs would be a good solution...

Anyone tested this?

Brian Petersen · March 23rd, 2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Perez

How about footage edited in a NLE, than exported back to P2?

Can you even do this? I was under the assumption that it's pretty much a one way street when dealing with these P2 cards. I didn't think we had the luxury of importing, editing, then spiting back out to the P2 card to play back from the camera. Am I wrong?

Tung Bui · March 24th, 2006, 01:07 AM

I dont know about you guys but alot of lcd's just destroy the image. Even a cheap crt you get for 2 cents will look alot better than most lcd's and match the best lcd's such as the ones apple uses. I dont think its any camera's fault if the lcd doesnt display them well, its the lcd's fault. Most just produce a crap image. I've heard of people saying the lcd is "unkind" to the image and that non professional tv's "hide" the faults. I think that's just plain stupid. There are no such thing as "faults" per say, its just the way the image is processed. CRT's just do it better generally speaking and they've been around for a long time. They'll just have to design lcd's that display the images better in the future.

I also happen to like the computer monitors better than tv's. Sure the gamma's different but the image is progressive, I get hd resolution and a wider color gamut. Problem is no one makes them any bigger than 24" and they're heavy.

Its interesting that we obsess over the image and people pay the price of a small car for their home theatre setup and yet there doesnt seem to be a way of calibrating consumer displays so that people get what the producers originally intended the image to look like.

Barry Green · March 24th, 2006, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Petersen

Can you even do this? I was under the assumption that it's pretty much a one way street when dealing with these P2 cards. I didn't think we had the luxury of importing, editing, then spiting back out to the P2 card to play back from the camera. Am I wrong?

The capability is certainly there; from Canopus Edius Broadcast you can write a file back directly to the card, and it'll do it the "right" way -- sending the video and audio files out, and even let you create and annotate metadata files for your clips.

FCP has practically no support like this, but you can "crash record" back out to the cards, by telling it to "print to video" and then on the camera you press the VCR REC button to capture the incoming firewire stream. Avid can do this as well.

But for P2/MXF integration, Canopus totally got it right.

March 12th, 2006, 11:36 AM	#17
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Reply Hi Hans: I am afraid that this is not possible without first capturing and encoding the material from the P2 card. Dan

March 12th, 2006, 04:41 PM	#19
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Nitris Hi Jay: All you need to do is import the .mxf files themselves and set up an appropriate frame rate and raster size. As I mentioned, I find it supremely disappointing that this $90,000.00 AVID cannot then play these files correctly, they stutter quite badly until you re-render them with the DNxHD codec, then they playback fine. While I really like some of the capabilities of this AVID like the motion tracking and color correction, some of the limitations are amazing, consideriing that Final Cut, for a mere $1,200.00 with the addition of a $3,000.00 board (Kona 3) can do HD upconversion, can playback all flavors of DVCProHD with no stuttering, etc. No wonder AVID is only concentrating on the high-end, FCP is MUCH better on the low end. We only have the Nitris because we have 8 off-line bays, all AVID and I could not convince our owner that for the same price as our Nitris, I could have built him 8 more FCP on-line HD bays, too many of the AVID-only editors were terrified of switching to FCP also. Ah well, the Nitris is a sweet machine overall, but it does have too many limitations for it's considerable price IMHO. Best, Dan

March 23rd, 2006, 10:09 AM	#21
Damien Molineaux New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: based in Geneva\|Switzerland Posts: 17	Dell 2405 HD component inputs Hi, My understanding is that the Dell 2405 doesn't handle HD via its component inputs, am I mistaken ? Isn't your Dell just upconverting an SD signal, which might explain the macroblocks ? Cheers

March 23rd, 2006, 06:26 PM	#23
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Reply Hi: The Dell most definitely DOES display full HD signals...1:1. BUT, it is noisy, has very limited adjustments and totally amplifies the HVX-200 macroblock issue. It's probably the cheapest way to display HD signal but you get what you pay for. Personally, while I am enjoying the Dell, I am saving for the Panasonic 17" that everyone is raving about. Best, Dan

March 23rd, 2006, 09:01 PM	#24
Sergio Perez Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 331	How about footage edited in a NLE, than exported back to P2? Do you still get the noisy footage when you display it? This is because most of us will use the HVX's component outs to transcode to other systems, like BetaSP, Beta Digital, even DVCPROHD Tape, so I would assume the component outs would be a good solution... Anyone tested this? __________________ If you don't believe in your film, no one else will.

March 12th, 2006, 03:45 AM	#16
Hans ter Lingen Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 55	What happens if you transfer the recorded footage strait from the P2 card to a DVD and play the DVD back on the various type of displays?? (is this technical possible anyway????).

March 12th, 2006, 03:35 PM	#18
Jay Morris Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 48	How did you get your P2 footage into the Nitris? We have one at work, too. As far as I know, the nitris does not have P2 import capabilities (no firewire capture, too). Also, what project settings did you have to use for the nle to play back 720 24pn? Thanks!

March 14th, 2006, 01:44 PM	#20
Michael Goode New Boot Join Date: May 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 10	Is it possible to playback the footage w/o the microblock issue from FCP back to the camera, into the HDTV? Or is a separate card and connection to the TV from the NLE needed?

March 24th, 2006, 01:07 AM	#26
Tung Bui Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 101	I dont know about you guys but alot of lcd's just destroy the image. Even a cheap crt you get for 2 cents will look alot better than most lcd's and match the best lcd's such as the ones apple uses. I dont think its any camera's fault if the lcd doesnt display them well, its the lcd's fault. Most just produce a crap image. I've heard of people saying the lcd is "unkind" to the image and that non professional tv's "hide" the faults. I think that's just plain stupid. There are no such thing as "faults" per say, its just the way the image is processed. CRT's just do it better generally speaking and they've been around for a long time. They'll just have to design lcd's that display the images better in the future. I also happen to like the computer monitors better than tv's. Sure the gamma's different but the image is progressive, I get hd resolution and a wider color gamut. Problem is no one makes them any bigger than 24" and they're heavy. Its interesting that we obsess over the image and people pay the price of a small car for their home theatre setup and yet there doesnt seem to be a way of calibrating consumer displays so that people get what the producers originally intended the image to look like.