PAL versus NTSC HVX200 at DVinfo.net

Pierre Petit · May 25th, 2006, 11:18 PM

Is theyre any difference in both models if you plan to use it for hd?

(sorry i dont know how to edit the title of the thread should read hvx200......)

Pierre Petit · May 27th, 2006, 01:09 PM

ok... The reason i ask is that i have been using a gl2 untill now. After seeing some sample footage i am convinced that the hvx200 is the camera i want. I am in singapore now and i can get a good deal on the camera but i live in canada. For the price of the camera alone in canada i can get it with 2 4GB P2 card. Also im traveling to indonesia and the scenery theyre is breathtaking so i'm really motivated to buy the camera now.I have a panasonic hd tv at home and i just want to make sure i can make any use of the footage. This is mostly a hobbie for me. Apart from some occasional indie videoclip and some low budget indie movie i do with friends i mainly use the camera for lanscape(the gl2 never really did honour to the landscape in indo).

I plan on shooting hd only to get the full potential of the camera.
I never seen to see any mention about pal of ntsc hd....after doing some search in the forum i only found one post about the chrystal being different. Im not sure i understand clearly. Thanks to anyone who could help me in this matter. I notice most people posting here are proffesionnals.It makes sense because of the price of this camera. Excuse me if this post is not appropriate...

Barry Green · May 27th, 2006, 10:54 PM

Unfortunately European/Oceanic HD does indeed differ from US HD. While the frame sizes and color space are the same, the frame rate is still different.

So the same NTSC/PAL type of situation exists yet again, and the HVX is made in two versions, one that is appropriate for countries that use NTSC and one that is appropriate for countries that use PAL. The NTSC/US version shoots 24p/60i, the EU/PAL version shoots 25p/50i.

David Tamés · May 29th, 2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Petit

[...] any difference in both models if you plan to use it for hd? [...]

... and ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

[...] the HVX is made in two versions, one that is appropriate for countries that use NTSC and one that is appropriate for countries that use PAL. The NTSC/US version shoots 24p/60i, the EU/PAL version shoots 25p/50i.

Pierre, if you're interested in the specific differences, here are the various formats the HVX200 records (according the Panasonic sources):

Video Formats and Codecs supported by AG-HVX200P (United States/NTSC model):

HD (DVCPRO HD codec) recording formats (to P2 card): 1080/60i, 1080/24p(over 60i), 1080/24pA(over 60i), 1080/30p(over 60i), 720/60p, 720/24p(over 60p), 720/30p(over 60p), 720/24pN(Native), 720/30pN(Native)

SD (DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO, DV codec) recording formats (to P2 card): 480/60i, 480/24p(over 60i), 480pA(over 60i), 480/30p(over 60i)

SD (DV codec) recording formats (to miniDV tape): 480/60i, 480/24p(over 60i), 480pA(over 60i), 480/30p(over 60i)

Variable frame rates available in 720p mode: 12, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 30, 32, 36, 48, 60fps

Video Formats and Codecs supported by AG-HVX200E (European/PAL model):

HD (DVCPRO HD codec) recording formats (to P2 card): 1080/50i, 1080/25p(over 50i), 720/50p, 720/25p(over 50p), 720/25pN(Native)

SD (DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO, DV codecs) recording formats (to P2 card): 576/50i, 576/25p(over 50i)

SD (DV codec) recording modes (to miniDV tape): 576/50i, 576/25p(over 50i)

Variable frame rates available in 720p mode: 12, 18, 20, 23, 25, 27, 30, 32, 37, 48, 50fps

Peter Jefferson · May 30th, 2006, 07:10 AM

dont forget that the tape based DV25 recordings will be to their native colour sampling.. being NTSC 4:1:1 and Pal 4:2:0

In addition to this, the Aus Pal model is running under the guise of HVX202 god knows why they couldnt just stick to one friggin name..

What gets me is that these new HD options could have led the path to a global standard framerate... but alas.. we wont ever see that..

Barry Green · May 30th, 2006, 02:57 PM

I believe they chose the "202" name to control gray market trafficking of the camera; European models are 200, Oceanic models are 202, but functionally they're the same.

And no, there won't ever be a global standard frame rate, because of backward compatibility with the millions of hours of existing footage...

Leigh Wanstead · May 31st, 2006, 08:40 PM

So for old fighting PAL is better than NTSC. Does that apply to hvx200 ntsc/pal model?

TIA

Regards
Leigh

Barry Green · May 31st, 2006, 11:57 PM

I don't understand the question...

... but if you're in NZ, you want the PAL/50Hz HVX202 model.

Leigh Wanstead · June 1st, 2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

I don't understand the question...

... but if you're in NZ, you want the PAL/50Hz HVX202 model.

I heard ntsc is not for cinema, pal is better than ntsc. By following that logic, does hvx202 pal model is better than hvx200 ntsc model for shooting indi film?

Here is the link to argument of ntsc/pal

http://www.headstrong.co.nz/forum/in...?showtopic=612

Regards
Leigh

Barry Green · June 1st, 2006, 04:04 PM

That link didn't work for me.

Regardless though, HD is neither NTSC nor PAL. It's HD. PAL was better than interlaced NTSC, that's for sure. But 24p NTSC is better than interlaced PAL, and in standard-def, 25p PAL was the best standard-def you could get. But in HD, that all changes, because the resolution is the same whether you're shooting 24p or 25p. If you're going to a cinema screen, 24p is better than 25p, and all other factors are basically equal (same color sampling, same vertical resolution, etc). There's nothing wrong with using 25p, it just means you'll have to slow the footage down to 24fps and stretch the audio by 4%.

Tom Ang · June 5th, 2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

That link didn't work for me.

There's nothing wrong with using 25p, it just means you'll have to slow the footage down to 24fps and stretch the audio by 4%.

Actually, for Mac users, there's quite a big downside to the PAL version of the HVX - and that is of course lack of support in Final Cut Pro for 720/25PN - which cuts us PAL folk off from the most exciting Varicam-like capabilities of the camera.

There are work-arounds of course - HD Log (expensive - but not as expensive as Panasonic's HD VTR) and Raylight (toe-curling need to run Virtual PC - though for Intel-powered Macs help is round the corner in the form of Parallel Workstations, currently in beta). Also there's the little matter of losing out on 20% of overcranking - you guys get 60fps, we make do with 50fps.

I'm personally not convinced I made the right decision to buy the PAL version for my work here in England. But I'll stick with it, and add my voice to the clamour for full format/resolution support from Apple.

But I still love the camera.
Great Light to all.

Pierre Petit · June 7th, 2006, 12:01 AM

I will wait a few months and buy it in canada. The appeal of savings thousands of dollars was appealing but the downsides are too big.I still find it strange theyre could be such a huge gap in prices.
Lucky i took time to think, i was just ready to charge my credit card and tought id better ask here before.
Singapore airlines lost my gl2 so i was really eager to get a new cam.

Thanks all for the infos.

Sergio Perez · June 7th, 2006, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre Petit

I will wait a few months and buy it in canada. The appeal of savings thousands of dollars was appealing but the downsides are too big.I still find it strange theyre could be such a huge gap in prices.
Lucky i took time to think, i was just ready to charge my credit card and tought id better ask here before.
Singapore airlines lost my gl2 so i was really eager to get a new cam.

Thanks all for the infos.

Pierre, why not buy a SOny A1, which should be ntsc and pal compatible, and keep it as a replacement for your GL2, and then buy the HVX in Canada? The A1 is a great second unit cam for the HVX, and, if you plan to do some documentary or diferent perspective shots, this would be a very good option... You can get an a1 for a very good price in Singapore...

Eugene Ware · June 21st, 2006, 06:28 AM

Sergio, I think the A1 is not both PAL and NTSC. The Z1 however is (which is really handy).

Yeah, one of the really cool things about HD that no-one really talks about is that for the first time in a long time NTSC is actually a preferred format for those obsessed with the "film look", as it supports the true 24P versus 25P which needs to be slowed down to 24P by 4%.

However, the NTSC color system has generally been regarded as being inferior to PAL in the SD days.

Does the same things apply with HD? Or is the difference relatively marginal now with digital cameras.

If so, then even for those in PAL countries, going with an NTSC model may make sense.

What do people think?

Mathieu Ghekiere · June 21st, 2006, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Ware

If so, then even for those in PAL countries, going with an NTSC model may make sense.

What do people think?

I think most people, if they would really need it, would say it's less cumbersome to slow down in post, then to buy a NTSC camera and looking for NTSC tapes in PAL Land, and so on and so on...
I've heard going from 25p to 24p isn't difficult if you watch your audio, I think far easier then the whole 'NTSC camera in a PAL land' thing...

But it's nice that maybe in a couple of years - or a dozen, the complete NTSC and PAL thing will be a thing from the past...

May 25th, 2006, 11:18 PM	#1
Pierre Petit New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: canada Posts: 22	PAL versus NTSC HVX200 Is theyre any difference in both models if you plan to use it for hd? (sorry i dont know how to edit the title of the thread should read hvx200......)

June 7th, 2006, 12:01 AM	#12
Pierre Petit New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: canada Posts: 22	thanks all for the info I will wait a few months and buy it in canada. The appeal of savings thousands of dollars was appealing but the downsides are too big.I still find it strange theyre could be such a huge gap in prices. Lucky i took time to think, i was just ready to charge my credit card and tought id better ask here before. Singapore airlines lost my gl2 so i was really eager to get a new cam. Thanks all for the infos.

June 21st, 2006, 06:28 AM	#14
Eugene Ware Tourist Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2	PAL versus NTSC HVX200 Sergio, I think the A1 is not both PAL and NTSC. The Z1 however is (which is really handy). Yeah, one of the really cool things about HD that no-one really talks about is that for the first time in a long time NTSC is actually a preferred format for those obsessed with the "film look", as it supports the true 24P versus 25P which needs to be slowed down to 24P by 4%. However, the NTSC color system has generally been regarded as being inferior to PAL in the SD days. Does the same things apply with HD? Or is the difference relatively marginal now with digital cameras. If so, then even for those in PAL countries, going with an NTSC model may make sense. What do people think?

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May 27th, 2006, 01:09 PM	#2
Pierre Petit New Boot Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: canada Posts: 22	ok... The reason i ask is that i have been using a gl2 untill now. After seeing some sample footage i am convinced that the hvx200 is the camera i want. I am in singapore now and i can get a good deal on the camera but i live in canada. For the price of the camera alone in canada i can get it with 2 4GB P2 card. Also im traveling to indonesia and the scenery theyre is breathtaking so i'm really motivated to buy the camera now.I have a panasonic hd tv at home and i just want to make sure i can make any use of the footage. This is mostly a hobbie for me. Apart from some occasional indie videoclip and some low budget indie movie i do with friends i mainly use the camera for lanscape(the gl2 never really did honour to the landscape in indo). I plan on shooting hd only to get the full potential of the camera. I never seen to see any mention about pal of ntsc hd....after doing some search in the forum i only found one post about the chrystal being different. Im not sure i understand clearly. Thanks to anyone who could help me in this matter. I notice most people posting here are proffesionnals.It makes sense because of the price of this camera. Excuse me if this post is not appropriate...

May 27th, 2006, 10:54 PM	#3
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Unfortunately European/Oceanic HD does indeed differ from US HD. While the frame sizes and color space are the same, the frame rate is still different. So the same NTSC/PAL type of situation exists yet again, and the HVX is made in two versions, one that is appropriate for countries that use NTSC and one that is appropriate for countries that use PAL. The NTSC/US version shoots 24p/60i, the EU/PAL version shoots 25p/50i.

May 30th, 2006, 07:10 AM	#5
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	dont forget that the tape based DV25 recordings will be to their native colour sampling.. being NTSC 4:1:1 and Pal 4:2:0 In addition to this, the Aus Pal model is running under the guise of HVX202 god knows why they couldnt just stick to one friggin name.. What gets me is that these new HD options could have led the path to a global standard framerate... but alas.. we wont ever see that..

May 30th, 2006, 02:57 PM	#6
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I believe they chose the "202" name to control gray market trafficking of the camera; European models are 200, Oceanic models are 202, but functionally they're the same. And no, there won't ever be a global standard frame rate, because of backward compatibility with the millions of hours of existing footage...

May 31st, 2006, 08:40 PM	#7
Leigh Wanstead Trustee Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NZ Posts: 1,276	So for old fighting PAL is better than NTSC. Does that apply to hvx200 ntsc/pal model? TIA Regards Leigh

May 31st, 2006, 11:57 PM	#8
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I don't understand the question... ... but if you're in NZ, you want the PAL/50Hz HVX202 model.

June 1st, 2006, 04:04 PM	#10
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	That link didn't work for me. Regardless though, HD is neither NTSC nor PAL. It's HD. PAL was better than interlaced NTSC, that's for sure. But 24p NTSC is better than interlaced PAL, and in standard-def, 25p PAL was the best standard-def you could get. But in HD, that all changes, because the resolution is the same whether you're shooting 24p or 25p. If you're going to a cinema screen, 24p is better than 25p, and all other factors are basically equal (same color sampling, same vertical resolution, etc). There's nothing wrong with using 25p, it just means you'll have to slow the footage down to 24fps and stretch the audio by 4%.