Am I the only one? HVX200 with HDV tape function

[Daniel Kissel]

As a DVX100 user I was very intrigued by the HVX200. but for my hobbyist's needs - after all is said and done - the P2 solution sank the boat.

I would, however, have bought the camera in a heartbeat if it had tape-based HDV. Even in its most basic incarnation w/o 720p it would still look better than SD footage and probably blend in nicely with P2-based footage as lens and CCDs are the same.

With the raw processing power present in the HVX, HDV should be a piece of cake.

Compared to the "Swiss Army Knife-like" array of shooting modes on the HVX200, the MiniDV drive seems anachronistic and underutilized to me.

[Pete Tews]

HDV and DVC PRO are like Pepsi and Coca Cola, they are not friends...

If HDV was a open source format, then things would be different. If you like outdated technology and dealing with tapes, go with HDV. If you want the latest technology, go with P2.

Do more research about P2 and you will see that its really cool. I was skeptical at first too.

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[Robert Lane]

Daniel,

As I've mentioned many times, the "right" system for any user/production has everything to do with final output and workflow preferences and less to do with tech specs of any format.

The initial likening to the HVX and the P2 system for most was/is the tapeless workflow. However dealing with P2 file management presents it's own unique challenges that take some getting used to and, for certain require workflow modifications for any person or production house making the tapeless transition.

P2 (DVCPRO-HD)/HDV are both "current" technologies however their intended market placement and ideal usages aren't always the same. Currently there are situations where a tape-based system is better than P2 from many perspectives. Conversely, there are other scenarios that make P2 the logical and obvious weapon of choice.

In the near future the "convenience gap" between the two formats will grow smaller as P2 capacities increase and 3rd party support/options become more robust and plentiful.

In the end, it's not about which system is better, it's which system will fit your production needs the best - for now.

[Daniel Kissel]

I assumed that there were "political" reasons for not implementing HDV or something like it.

I fully agree that tapeless is the way to go - but I wonder why Panasonic still included SD tape. IMHO, the real-estate for the tape drive could have been vacated for less bulk or replaced by a nice, shock-mounted, 100GB HDD.

I'll wait and see whether Panasonic will finally divorce the past and fully embrace the future.

P2 not having any competition (?) nor cooperation in the market to drive the price to a reasonable level I am wondering how fast it will catch on with prosumers.

[Pete Tews]

Originally Posted by Daniel Kissel

Ibut I wonder why Panasonic still included SD tape. IMHO, the real-estate for the tape drive could have been vacated for less bulk or replaced by a nice, shock-mounted, 100GB HDD.

That would be great! especially if the Hard Drive was upgradable...

[Daniel Kissel]

Toughened up for field use, user replaceable. Let's say US$ 400 for ample toughness.

The HDD only spins when transfering data off the P2 card, conserving battery and - after being consciously put into that mode - limit shock exposure.

If you follow discussions about P2, most applications will see it end up on HDDs anyway (Laptop, P2 Store, FS-100) so it would be fair to say that the reliability concerns re. HDDs is a moot point.

That is what I would expect in 2006 from a new generation camera. But then, there is always hope for the next revision....I really wanted to give Panasonic my money but they have to come up with a revolutionary product (like the DVX), not an evolutionary one.

[Claude Isbell]

I have to say, when the HVX was announced, I was only considering using it if it had a tape also. After shooting a short with someone else's 200, I wish it didn't have one. The P2 format is awesome. Once prices come down, I'll probably buy one. The pics are amazing!

[Robert Lane]

Originally Posted by Daniel Kissel

I assumed that there were "political" reasons for not implementing HDV or something like it.

I fully agree that tapeless is the way to go - but I wonder why Panasonic still included SD tape. IMHO, the real-estate for the tape drive could have been vacated for less bulk or replaced by a nice, shock-mounted, 100GB HDD.

I'll wait and see whether Panasonic will finally divorce the past and fully embrace the future.

P2 not having any competition (?) nor cooperation in the market to drive the price to a reasonable level I am wondering how fast it will catch on with prosumers.

You can rest easy about Panasonic's future plans; the millions that have been invested in the research and development of P2 plus the fact that more than 2 cameras are using the format is a clear indication that P2 is the future for Panny.

You won't see tape going away completely for some time, just as film is still viable and so is analog audio cassettes (albeit in very small usages). The tape was placed in the HVX body because it adds functionality, such as the ability to shoot SD in a traditional tape-capture workflow and, the ability to down-convert in-camera from P2.

There's nothing political about format differences, it's just competetive advantage: Panasonic's HD format is DVCPRO-HD. HDV is a completely different format altogether, just as HDCAM is yet another format. Some codecs/formats talk with each other like DV25 and DVCAM and others just never will, like Beta to anything else.

Depending on your perspective, having the plethora of formats available is either a wonderful thing or, a complete frustration in not having an across the board "standard". Don't ask why there are so many formats, I don't know anybody that knows that one!

[Daniel Kissel]

I was thinking down the lines of getting decent HD footage for cheap or extended periods of time (like in underwater situations) would have been a nice feature to have on a 2006 HD camera. The SD workflow would still have been possible, it's all electronics and the HVX has more than enough steam.

For my personal requirements HDV is good enough for most situations, yet no progressive scan HDV camera in that size range exists. SD could be covered by P2 even better, so the tape drive still seems out of place. I just feel that the exclusion of that technology was not a technical decision, but Panny not being part of the HDV consortium.

Fine if they want to go it alone and I am sure that P2 works well and will become more reasonable in price...but I can't help but being reminded of the feeling I had when the DVX did not have a LANC terminal, rendering it incompatible with the rest of the world - to no benefit at all.

[Scott Casper]

It`s not only having to have a dozen $600 p2 cards that makes me cautious it`s archiving all your video. That is one good thing about tape you have it to save for later if needed. With this format it is harder to archive. I will have to wait alittle while for prices to come down. In the meantime I will have to opt for the HDV tape. Other than that the Panasonic looks like a winner,

[Peter Jefferson]

what i dont get is why they didnt implement a CF or Microdrive setup in teh tape drive bay with a HW raid setup... speed wouldnt be a problem and upgrades of capacity woudl also be possible...

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Please excuse my ignorance on how the HVX200 interfaces with external HDDs. Is it done through firewire?

If it does, then you can implement a portable download dock very easily, using a large size IDE HDD. Say 300GB or so, locked inside an external firewire box, using a Nebtek camera battery adapter to power this setup.

In any case, even if a laptop is used to download the P2 cards to, above's combo could also be implemented.

[Ralph Keyser]

Originally Posted by Daniel Kissel

For my personal requirements HDV is good enough for most situations, yet no progressive scan HDV camera in that size range exists.

I'm sure I've missed something, but what about JVC's little HDV camera? It's a progressive scan chip, and although it's longer, it's also thinner than the HVX.